110 oct fuel

[bluesrt]

anybody run this in a stock viper? was wanting to mix it with 5 gallons or so of 110 to the rest of super to the tank. i can buy it at the pump up the street at the 66 station.did not know if it would be ******* the cats. thanks----

 

[Martin]

I've seen some 110 that was lead free, and some that was leaded - and you definitely don't want to use the leaded. What brand is it?

 

[bluesrt]

its unleaded but dont know the brand- ill check thanks

 

[1fast400]

Likely VP. You have no use for this in a stock viper.

 

[Viper Specialty]

There is NO point in running that gas in a stock Viper. You will LOSE horsepower, not gain it.

Contrary to popular belief, higher octane gasoline is LESS volatile than low octane gas. That is the whole point- high octane gas allows high compression and forced induction engines to cram more fuel into a cylinder at higher temperatures without it deciding to go "bang" all by itself. However, if you don't need it for that reason, you simply added a mix that is harder to burn, that's all.

 

[bluesrt]

damn i love the smell of it,

 

[Martin]

damn i love the smell of it,

Probably because it's full of grain alcohol

 

[TrackAire]

I understand the issue of BTU's and energy in regards low vs high octane. I do believe you'll lose horsepower if you have too much octane on a standard type ingition and timing system (Gen III or older vehicle)

But...what kind of results can 93 or 95 octane give a more advance processor and variable cam motor like the Gen IV? I would think the difference would be even more pronounced on a very hot day, track event, etc. I don't think a dyno will show as much difference (between octanes vs hp) because of the shorter run, as opposed to a all out 15 to 20 minute track session. If the knock sensors are kicking in due to hot IAT's, etc, then maybe the higher octance fuel will allow you to keep your hp and not lose it as the motor gets more heat soaked.

So maybe the higher octane won't give you more hp but let you avoid losing more power (like lower octane and the knock sensors activating). Nothing feels worse than a motor that is getting timing pulled from it just when you want to let her rip.

Cheers,
George

Any Gen IV computer guru's willing to answer this question?

 

[Martin]

I'm not a Gen IV computer guru, but there are some basics about octane that apply to all cars. The limiting factor is the engine and what octane it needs to operate properly. Generally that's dependent on compression ratio, but ignition timing also plays a big role. If the engine was designed to run optimally on 91 octane, adding more octane won't help under normal conditions. I believe the stock Gen IV controller is designed to run optimally on 91 octane, but the engine does have a high enough compression ratio that a bit more power is waiting to be had if the ignition timing is advanced a bit. I believe that's what the Mopar performance PCM does - and it is optimized for (I think) 94 octane.

There are cases where an engine that's designed for a certain octane rating can benefit from a higher grade gas. But, that's typically because the engine has something wrong with it (carbon deposits, faulty fuel injectors leading to lean-burn conditions, bad sensors, etc.). Sometimes those problem engines need a higher octane to keep from pinging - but that's a whole different scenario that should really be addressed by fixing the engine and not band-aiding it with high-octane gas.

Track conditions are, of course, different than the 'street' conditions the manufacturers design around. If you're going to be driving under ultra-extreme conditions, a few extra octane certainly won't hurt. If the engine is in good condition, and you're experiencing knock (or timing is getting pulled back), dropping in a few gallons of 100 race gas isn't a bad idea.

 

[dtenney]

I think if tracking the car adding some race fuel is never a bad idea. Cheap insurance against detonation and considering the Gen IV motor does not use forged pistons, I think it would be money well spent. Mixing 100 would be plenty of insurance, the 110 is more for boosted applications.

-David

 

[1fast400]

I didn't put race gas in my car this weekend at pinks, twin turbo application and was running 9's on street tires (invo's) all weekend. If I don't need it running base boost, you won't either, I promise.

 

[Rizzo]

Running higher octane then the motor was built for is a waste of money and you will loose HP. You want to run the lowest octane you can without detonation for the maximum HP.

Rizzo

 

[dragon rider]

I didn't put race gas in my car this weekend at pinks, twin turbo application and was running 9's on street tires (invo's) all weekend. If I don't need it running base boost, you won't either, I promise.

Great times. Do you have any videos?

 

[1fast400]

I'm sure my run will be on TV as the guys hood came off beside me at 130.

This was me this past fall running 17lbs, on the 20" invo's. I did put 5 gallons of 106 in, along with the pump gas included. Drove it to track, turned it up and then drove it home: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD2Uzq45R2k[/media]

 

[TrackAire]

1fast400,

Great times. Can't wait to see a Viper make us proud on Pinks.

I don't think you can compare a motor that you can tune (adjust your air/fuel mixture, timing, etc) to the "potential" octane requirements of a stock tuned Gen IV with its multiple knock sensors, etc. You can't do that on a Gen IV as far as I know...at least not without a lot of add on units like a Motec. Even though you are running turbos, your engine is tuned to keep it alive for the 1/4 mile. If you were to run something like the Silver State Classic or road race the car, I'd bet that tunes and or fuel would be changed.

Although the extra octane may not make a single hp over 91 octane fuel, it may help keep the power up as the motor is getting hotter, driven harder, etc. 600 hp may turn into 560 hp once the motor gets pushed and things start to get hot or the IAT's are higher than normal due to high ambient temps.

The Gen IV is definately designed to run clean first, reliability and power then comes down the list. Compared to race tunes, I'd guess a stock tune would be considered lean. I've talked to a couple of overseas tuners that specialize in foreign cars with variable cams, etc. They feel the Gen IV has more processes going on than any other car, period. If it was that easy, somebody would have broken the codes by now.

I'm just saying, there is a LOT of potential in the Gen IV. With an unlocked computer, upgraded cam, head work and forged goodies, the Gen IV will put out more power than Ferrari's 599XX race car....naturally aspirated.

Give us a heads up when the episode will hit the airwaves.

Cheers,
George

 

[1fast400]

It won't run till July. I didn't make the group of 64 as the car was too fast. They choose 11 second cars. Most didn't realize I wasn't running slicks . It was a good time, anyone that has the opportunity to run one, should.

 

[Viper Specialty]

But...what kind of results can 93 or 95 octane give a more advance processor and variable cam motor like the Gen IV? I would think the difference would be even more pronounced on a very hot day, track event, etc. I don't think a dyno will show as much difference (between octanes vs hp) because of the shorter run, as opposed to a all out 15 to 20 minute track session. If the knock sensors are kicking in due to hot IAT's, etc, then maybe the higher octance fuel will allow you to keep your hp and not lose it as the motor gets more heat soaked.

So maybe the higher octane won't give you more hp but let you avoid losing more power (like lower octane and the knock sensors activating). Nothing feels worse than a motor that is getting timing pulled from it just when you want to let her rip.

Cheers,
George

Any Gen IV computer guru's willing to answer this question?

It will not make any difference. As any other computer system, Gen-4's still run a standard type base timing map set for 91 octane. The processor will PULL timing if it senses detonation, but in no way will it continue to "add" timing until it senses detonation. It has been optimized for 91 Octane, and simply prevents damage from the use of anything else. If it was optimized for 100 octane, and you were running 91, then switched to 95 or 100, THEN you would see a difference.

 

[Viper Specialty]

I think if tracking the car adding some race fuel is never a bad idea. Cheap insurance against detonation and considering the Gen IV motor does not use forged pistons, I think it would be money well spent. Mixing 100 would be plenty of insurance, the 110 is more for boosted applications.

-David

While it may help timing being pulled and power lost in extreme circumstances, the knock sensors are already in place to protect the engine in this situation. As most people are running 93-94 on the track and street, they are already running more octane than is needed anyway.

 

[Viper Specialty]

1fast400,

Great times. Can't wait to see a Viper make us proud on Pinks.

I don't think you can compare a motor that you can tune (adjust your air/fuel mixture, timing, etc) to the "potential" octane requirements of a stock tuned Gen IV with its multiple knock sensors, etc. You can't do that on a Gen IV as far as I know...at least not without a lot of add on units like a Motec. Even though you are running turbos, your engine is tuned to keep it alive for the 1/4 mile. If you were to run something like the Silver State Classic or road race the car, I'd bet that tunes and or fuel would be changed.

Although the extra octane may not make a single hp over 91 octane fuel, it may help keep the power up as the motor is getting hotter, driven harder, etc. 600 hp may turn into 560 hp once the motor gets pushed and things start to get hot or the IAT's are higher than normal due to high ambient temps.

The Gen IV is definately designed to run clean first, reliability and power then comes down the list. Compared to race tunes, I'd guess a stock tune would be considered lean. I've talked to a couple of overseas tuners that specialize in foreign cars with variable cams, etc. They feel the Gen IV has more processes going on than any other car, period. If it was that easy, somebody would have broken the codes by now.

I'm just saying, there is a LOT of potential in the Gen IV. With an unlocked computer, upgraded cam, head work and forged goodies, the Gen IV will put out more power than Ferrari's 599XX race car....naturally aspirated.

Give us a heads up when the episode will hit the airwaves.

Cheers,
George

While I see what you are saying, you may be forgetting that the Gen-4 is already tested, tried, and beaten to a pulp on 91 octane without detonation issues. That is the point of having a tune optimized for a particular octane rating. Without a system like a Pectel or a Motec on a Gen-4, you don't have the ability to alter the tune to correctly use a different octane rating, short of the Mopar computer for 93 Octane. Unless we are talking EXTREME circumstances that Mopar did not anticipate, it is unlikely that much power is being pulled at any time.

While it is true that a tune for a 1/4 mile car will be different than a road course car, you are still comparing apples to apples here. There is nothing in the Gen-4 that sets it apart from any other engine in any other car. It is still an internal combustion engine and has to follow the same rules. The computer may be complex, but it is by no means more complex or capable than the top-level race computers out there like Pectel and Motec. The only difference is, they can be tuned, and it cannot [by us].

Could the Gen-4 computer be optimized for power rather than emissions? Sure. But that would still have to be done with a certain octane level, and again, no different than any other engine in the same situation. More octane will not "unlock" anything in the computer that wasn't there before... you need the ability to tune for that.

Lastly, the Gen-4 computer does not just need to be "unlocked"... it isn't that simple. It is more like learning a new language from scratch. The code needs to be reverse engineered, and it is a HUGE amount of work to do so.

 

[Paul Hawker]

Higher Octane fuel burns slower. The flame front moves slower in the combustion chamber. Not a way to get more power.

 

[dtenney]

While it may help timing being pulled and power lost in extreme circumstances, the knock sensors are already in place to protect the engine in this situation. As most people are running 93-94 on the track and street, they are already running more octane than is needed anyway.

My only point is if Vipers are running the Mopar controller in summer heat, pulling 4th gear at 120mph, then a splash of 5 gallons of race fuel is extra insurance. Also if tracking the Gen IV motors why not spend the $20 or so to throw some extra protection at the engine.

Also a lot of Viper owners put few miles on there cars causing the fuel to sit in the tanks, collect water, and lose octane.

-David

 

[plumcrazy]

a lot of Viper owners put few miles on there cars causing the fuel to sit in the tanks, collect water, and lose octane.

This is very true and I dont know if its the same for a gen 4 as it is on MY gen2. but i was told when my engine got built and S/C installed, that old gas (from sitting all winter) cant be fixed or brought back up to grade octane wise so easily. it takes at least burning up all of the old fuel completely. I asked about adding some race fuel to be safe and was told not to bother, just drive my car gently to burn up a tank or so and then start boosting.

 

[1BADGTS]

My only point is if Vipers are running the Mopar controller in summer heat, pulling 4th gear at 120mph, then a splash of 5 gallons of race fuel is extra insurance. Also if tracking the Gen IV motors why not spend the $20 or so to throw some extra protection at the engine.

Also a lot of Viper owners put few miles on there cars causing the fuel to sit in the tanks, collect water, and lose octane.

-David

A STOCK GEN 4 has the ability to run for 3 straight days at over 5000 rpm on the Dyno .A professional test driver can take that car out (fill it with 91) beat the hell out of it (in any weather )and it will survive.In 2003 i was at Englishtown for a private test of the prototype FGT.You would not believe the amount of abuse any new supercar can take in a STOCK configeration. that car on that day survived over 65 dragstrip runs in an hour period =balls to the wall.

 

[dtenney]

The ACRX engine and FGT have forged pistons, the stock Gen IV does not. If the GEN IV had forged pistons then I would agree it could better handle the rigors of road racing. Since it does not I stand by my recommendation to add some race fuel when in doubt. Worst that can happen is it cost you $20, best that can happen is 2 years from now your motor is better off than the other guys.
-David

 

[dragon rider]

1fast400, I got a kick out of seeing your video. I'm trying to hit 124 in the 1/4 mile.LOL That car has got to be a blast. Can't wait to see it on pinks. Race gas on a stock motor does nothing but give the driver/ owner piece of mind. Thats priceless.

 

[1fast400]

The auto makes it a blast to drive and very safe. I'd given anything for it to be a 1/4 mile track on that pass. No doubt I was running 8.90's. Which on a Invo is just insane. Hopefully I can duplicate that run in the SRT vert when it's done . Racing on street tires is an absolute blast.

I do agree with piece of mind is priceless. I just wouldn't fill your car up on normal drives with higher than 93 octane. For special occasions, knock yourself out.