Blown Engine Diagnosis

[Kai SRT10]

A few weeks ago, I posted about my engine problems.

Here's what I found, after tearing the engine down:

The #3 journal spun both rod bearings.

The #3 rod bolts failed after being superheated and after repeatedly sending the piston into the cylinder head.

When the rod cap broke off the rod then turned sideways and was sheared off by the #4 rod (which also has a badly spun bearing). The piston skirt broke when the rod was sheared in half and cracked the cylinder liner sleeve.

The crankshaft is ruined.

This is not good.

 

[SnakeEye]

Say it isn't so...
Guess now is the time to build the shyt out that motor!

 

[99 R/T 10]

Is it still under warranty(hopefully)?

 

[quick2tr]

Sorry about the bad news and I hope you get everything fixed back up quickly. I have always thought the stock bottom end on these V-10 were rock solid and good for high HP #'s (> 700). With your CC oil pan, starvation should not have been a factor right?

 

[Kai SRT10]

Is it still under warranty(hopefully)?

Yes. Under warranty. I talked with the service manager at the local Dodge dealer and he said that this is covered by the warranty.

I have heard of other people who have blown their engines due to slipping the #3 rod bearings, so the folks at Arrow have likely seen this problem before. Hopefully, they will put coated bearings in this time around.

 

[Kenny]

Sorry about the bad news and I hope you get everything fixed back up quickly. I have always thought the stock bottom end on these V-10 were rock solid and good for high HP #'s (> 700). With your CC oil pan, starvation should not have been a factor right?

My guess is it had something to do with the work he recently had done---new cam, heads, etc. Something wasn't the way it should have been inside the motor, or it was poorly tuned.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Kai- Please post pictures of any involved components if possible, I am interested in seeing what happened here. Is the bottom end stock? Recent work?

 

[Kai SRT10]

Bottom end was stock. I had some head and valvetrain work done, but nothing that would have affected the rod bearings (or the bottom end at all.) I had checked the air/fuel that very day on the dyno, and it was always in a safe range. Things were running very well.

I saw the engine, and the #3 rod bearing had melted so bad it just completely disintigrated. The #3 rod was sheared into a dozen pieces. Most of it ended up in the oil pan. The piston was mangled as well. I will take some pictures. Surprisingly, the heads and valvetrain look ok, and the block may also be ok, other than the damage to the two sleeves. There is a ding on the block, but I couldn't tell if it was structural or not.

This is exactly the problem that you get when you track your car with the stock oil pan. I figured that with the comp coupe pan, I would have avoided these issues. When I get it back, I am going to look into a dry sump oil system. I will definitely get coated bearings as well.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Kai- I am very interested in seeing these pictures, as many as possible. Hell, I wouldnt mind paying the shipping on certain peices after you are done deciding what to do just to have a look at them.

For clarification, what year is your car? MDH?

I wouldnt go blaming the oil system JUST yet however. There can be other causes, as well as other things to look for first. The reason I say this is you had #3 fail, which is way up at the front of the block, close to the oil return from the pump. Generally, the bearings furthest from the pump will degrade at a much faster rate that the front if there is any type of oil system issues- save one. and that is; contamination of some sort.

Did you do an oil change soon before this event?

Filter type? Oil weight?

Be sure to check your bearings further back for telltale signs of starvation, hammering from detonation, contamination, etc...

 

[Kai SRT10]

Kai- I am very interested in seeing these pictures, as many as possible. Hell, I wouldnt mind paying the shipping on certain peices after you are done deciding what to do just to have a look at them.

For clarification, what year is your car? MDH?

I wouldnt go blaming the oil system JUST yet however. There can be other causes, as well as other things to look for first. The reason I say this is you had #3 fail, which is way up at the front of the block, close to the oil return from the pump. Generally, the bearings furthest from the pump will degrade at a much faster rate that the front if there is any type of oil system issues- save one. and that is; contamination of some sort.

Did you do an oil change soon before this event?

Filter type? Oil weight?

Be sure to check your bearings further back for telltale signs of starvation, hammering from detonation, contamination, etc...

Car is a 2004. The broken pieces are going to the dealer and then off to Arrow. I will take a bunch of pictures.

I change the oil and filter constantly. I do an oil change every 3000 miles, or after every track event. I've got 22,000 miles on the car, and have probably changed the oil and filter 15-20 times. Oil and filter had been changed just 2 weeks prior to the engine getting blown. Mobil 1 10w-30 oil, and a Mobil 1 filter.

The interesting thing is that the day I first posted about my engine issues (and before I had any clue as to what had happened), I got an e-mail from that engine builder/tuner who's name can not be mentioned on this board (we will call him JH.) He told me in his e-mail that he was willing to bet that I had slipped the #3 rod bearing. He said that he has seen this a lot on Vipers that are driven hard and that this is due to oil starvation. People who have had their engines blown when tracking them with the stock pan have experienced failure of the #3 rod bearing. JH in fact was proven correct (at least as to the rod bearing) when I took the engine apart and the thing that had failed was the #3 rod bearing. This makes me believe that he may in fact be correct about the cause being oil starvation.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Kai- I am very interested in seeing these pictures, as many as possible. Hell, I wouldnt mind paying the shipping on certain peices after you are done deciding what to do just to have a look at them.

For clarification, what year is your car? MDH?

I wouldnt go blaming the oil system JUST yet however. There can be other causes, as well as other things to look for first. The reason I say this is you had #3 fail, which is way up at the front of the block, close to the oil return from the pump. Generally, the bearings furthest from the pump will degrade at a much faster rate that the front if there is any type of oil system issues- save one. and that is; contamination of some sort.

Did you do an oil change soon before this event?

Filter type? Oil weight?

Be sure to check your bearings further back for telltale signs of starvation, hammering from detonation, contamination, etc...

Car is a 2004. The broken pieces are going to the dealer and then off to Arrow. I will take a bunch of pictures.

I change the oil and filter constantly. I do an oil change every 3000 miles, or after every track event. I've got 22,000 miles on the car, and have probably changed the oil and filter 15-20 times. Oil and filter had been changed just 2 weeks prior to the engine getting blown. Mobil 1 10w-30 oil, and a Mobil 1 filter.

The interesting thing is that the day I first posted about my engine issues (and before I had any clue as to what had happened), I got an e-mail from that engine builder/tuner who's name can not be mentioned on this board (we will call him JH.) He told me in his e-mail that he was willing to bet that I had slipped the #3 rod bearing. He said that he has seen this a lot on Vipers that are driven hard and that this is due to oil starvation. People who have had their engines blown when tracking them with the stock pan have experienced failure of the #3 rod bearing. JH in fact was proven correct (at least as to the rod bearing) when I took the engine apart and the thing that had failed was the #3 rod bearing. This makes me believe that he may in fact be correct about the cause being oil starvation.

Hello again,

I wasnt hinting at dirty oil, but rather a recent oil chance introducing something into the oil system that made its way into the engine. I have seen more than once a Mobil-1 filter spitting out a peice of its anti-drainback valve into the oil system, and assuming it makes it through the oil cooler, it goes right into the engine. My own car was one of these...but luckily it got caught in the cooler and I was able to remove it.

While JH may be correct, it still doesnt make much sense to me, assuming the Gen-3 oil galleries are set up like a Gen-2. The pump feeds into the front portion of the block, and is then split into the Cam/Crank gallery and them ultimately to the heads. The oil flow should be rearwards, causeing rear cylinders to starve for oil first, not fronts. Unless of course, there is a difference in the galleries or something I have missed when looking them over (If anyone knows something, please post or PM!). Unfortunately, Dodge service manuals lack oil gallery schematics...

 

[JohninFL]

Kai Sorry about your bad luck. I am amazed that the dealer stepped up to the plate after your mods and honesty about track time. What do you have to do a powertrain to void the warranty?

 

[ViperRay]

The dealer/dodge SHOULD cover it because the viper is a car meant to be tracked, regardless of its engineering shortcomings (oiling) and, the mods mentioned above had nothing to do with the failure.

I'm sure dodge feels its less expensive to fix the occasional car that breaks due to insufficient oiling rather than fix the root of the problem.

I'm just dissapointed that this happened despite the CC oil pan/pickup you installed.

 

[Kai SRT10]

Kai Sorry about your bad luck. I am amazed that the dealer stepped up to the plate after your mods and honesty about track time. What do you have to do a powertrain to void the warranty?

If it had been a problem with the valve train, I wouldn't have bothered, as it would have been my my problem. That is why I wanted to see what happened before I contacted the dealer. It would not have been fair to ask them to fix something that I messed up.

But nothing I've done to the car should have led to the rod bearing failing like this. The bearing literally melted away. As for track time, I can't imagine that Dodge would consider voiding a warranty because you've done some track days. Supposedly, that is what this car is made for.

 

[SweetRed04]

The dealer/dodge SHOULD cover it because the viper is a car meant to be tracked, regardless of its engineering shortcomings (oiling) and, the mods mentioned above had nothing to do with the failure.

I'm sure dodge feels its less expensive to fix the occasional car that breaks due to insufficient oiling rather than fix the root of the problem.

I'm just dissapointed that this happened despite the CC oil pan/pickup you installed.

I'm glad he is getting the engine covered by warranty.

However, ANYTHING that increased the engine's power or torque output can legitimately void the warranty. The warranty is based on the engine at its designed and delivered power. Adding even 5% power beyond what was delivered could, while unlikely, cause an engine failure.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Kai, has anyone speculated about the previously mentioned loose crank damper on your car, and the possibility of subtle damage to the crank that shows up later? While it may seem remote, one can at least wonder about same as there are only a few things to consider...bearing itself, oil (or lack there of ), foreign material, and crank itself as the offending agent.

Please keep the info coming.

 

[Vipera Russelli]

Ah hell. Sorry to hear your engine is so messed up, Kai, but at the same time relieved that Arrow is going to be rebuilding it under warranty. In the end, after a bit of waiting on your part, I suspect that you'll have a better engine than any engine that rolls off the assembly line at Conner Avenue, given Arrow's better-than-stock specs.

I am now, of course, extremely concerned about oil starvation at the track and am hoping mightily that JH is wrong on this one. Kai, I assume that when your engine blew up you were at your usual track. If so, do you have any thoughts on why you would have experienced oil starvation this time and not any of the other times you went to the track? I assume with the experience you have chalked up to date that your margin of improvement, or how much harder you’re cornering, is very, very small from one event to the next. So why the failure this time? Was your engine running hotter than usual, such as from running longer sessions or more sessions, or from your recent head and cam work? Did your new head and cam work allow you to push significantly harder in the corners? Were you running a different configuration or taking a familiar corner on a more aggressive line resulting in more g-force? Or do you think that you had previously done damage to your engine from oil starvation and that this last event was merely the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back, coincidently right after you had the head and cam work done? I don't suppose you have a magnetic oil drain plug that might have gathered some metal shaving previously, hinting at problems to come, do you?

I have the Archer racing pan, which I have to date assumed to be the same as the Comp Coupe pan you have on your Viper. Is that correct, or are they different pans?

Dan thanks for sharing your technical expertise. I hope your initial thoughts on this are correct.

Kai, once again, you have our attention. Please keep us posted.

 

[Kai SRT10]

I spoke with yet another engine tuner (Gerald at RSI) He said that the #3 bearing is the engine's weak link. He also confirmed that the #3 bearing gets the least amount of oil and is the first to fail from oil starvation.

As to what might have been different this time, I was on brand new Kumho tires that were a bit stickier than my Pilot Sport Cups. I was running neck and neck with a race prepped Porsche 911 on Hoosier slicks, so I was really pushing it in the corners. I was attacking harder than I have in a while because of the new sticky rubber and the "red haze" induced by chasing down a Porsche. I also noticed a fair amount more grip as a result of going back to the stock sway bars. So, cornering speeds were definitely higher than they've been.

Engine was not running hot. In fact, it was a nice, cool day, unlike some track days I've done where the temps were over 100 degrees. I wasn't even 15 minutes into the session when my engine blew, so it wasn't a super long time out on the track.

I'm pretty sure my oil pan is the same one that Archer sells. I bought it from John B at Parts Rack, and I believe that it is actually manufactured by Rousche.

 

[repiv]

Yes, that is the pan on the comp coupe you refer to. And yes Rousch manufactures it. Not jumping the gun here, but I would hate to have shelled out the $$ for this pan and still face oil starvation on track days....did you ever look at the oil pressure gauge during the run, curious if it showed a drop.
While I was at Viper Days, a guy toasted his engine during a sweeper, at about 50 mph due to oil starvation, he did not have the comp coupe pan. He had a tech form archer in the car at the time, I talked w/ the tech, he said the o/p gauge dropped to zero, told the guy to get out of the gas but the damage was done.
I thought I was immune from this w/ the c.c. pan in, but maybe not after reading what happened to you Kai

 

[Kai SRT10]

Yes, that is the pan on the comp coupe you refer to. And yes Rousch manufactures it. Not jumping the gun here, but I would hate to have shelled out the $$ for this pan and still face oil starvation on track days....did you ever look at the oil pressure gauge during the run, curious if it showed a drop.

This was my second session of the day. I didn't really keep an eye on oil pressure during this session. I had been eyeing the oil gauge during my first session, and it seemed good. Didn't notice any fluxuations. During this session, I remember checking engine temps, but don't recall checking pressure. (too busy driving.)

 

[Greg 99ACR Red and Silver]

I had thought I was "immune" with my trap door oil pan at the time yet I toasted my engine (cylinder #3) on the long, high speed sweeper at Willow Springs (turn 8). This is not an isolated incident as quite a few Vipers have blown up on turn 8 in the same fashion.

I had heads/cam and sticky Hoosiers and was feeling pretty cocky moving at considerably higher speeds than before and then "wump". A study of my damage around the #3 bearing (coloration) indicated weakening over some period of time (numerous track events) - not just all at once. I am certain that increased power and more aggressive driving didn't help it though.

Questions:
1) We don't hear much about Comp Coupe Engine Failures on this board. Is there any indication that they are immune to oil starvation or is it just we don't hear about it. Someone in the know please comment?

2) Generally these modded oil pans work better for accel/decel changes (front to rear) than lateral forces. Is the Comp Coupe oil pan really superior to all the trap door oil pans on the market? It didn't seem to help in this case.

3) I also heard that the oil pickup on SRTs and Comp Coupes are superior to Gen IIs (swinging)? It didn't seem to help in this case.

These engines are a little pricey to fix, so I added an Accusump as some insurance against a repeat incident. However, I am not comfortable at all to say it's "bullet proof".

 

[repiv]

Greg,
All good questions, hopefully someone can come up with some specific answers.

 

[Vipera Russelli]

New Kumho tires, eh? I'm interested in that too, as I'm looking to shave some seconds off my lap time. Of course if I going to exceed the limits of my aftermarket CC oil pan, then I'll have to replace that too...again. Damn. When will all these necessary upgrades end? I used to think this car was made for the track. Baloney! Sport hoops, oil pan, boat anchor wheels/tires/rotors, differential... rant, rant, rant. Oh well, I still love driving it at the track and I'm waaaay too invested to stop now .

Questions:
1) We don't hear much about Comp Coupe Engine Failures on this board. Is there any indication that they are immune to oil starvation or is it just we don't hear about it. Someone in the know please comment?

West Coast Viper has a Comp Coupe in its shop right now that is dead due to oil starvation at the track. And yes, it has a Comp Coupe oil pan, as you might suspect.

Sooooo..., has a dry sump system ever actually been installed in a Gen III? West Coast hasn't done it yet, and they sell a dry sump system for the Gen III. If not, then we're going to need a test case. Mmmmmm...

 

[quick2tr]

Last time I tracked my stock Viper with stock-pan (max oil level), I saw my oil pressure drop on a long left. Traqmate data showed average 0.90+ Gs for 5.0+ seconds. It went clearly below 25psi at ~3000rpms. Also noticed it does not recover itself immediately upon straightening. Was acting weird for at least the next 20 seconds (took a while to purge all the air?). Next lap, same behavior, at the same spot. Pitted, verified oil level, and next session out I slowed a bit on that corner to avoid the problem for most of the remaining sessions.

After reading this thread, I am thinking two things:

#1) I am no longer going to buy the CC oil pan for next year. Unless someone from the SRTengineering team steps up to defends this product and describe its known limits.

#2) I love that Dodge gave me a 7 year warranty that they stand behind. 5 more years of trackin.

 

[Vipera Russelli]

Anyone know how much oil overfill is okay before it starts to create its own negative issues? A quart? Two quarts? A quarter inch over the top of the "safe band" on the dip stick? A half inch over?

 

[Viper Specialty]

Well, from the sounds of it, there definitely is an oiling issue that goes beyond even the CC oil pan....and there is something funny about bearing #3 I will have to check out.

Hmm... Dry Sump seems lke it is becoming a neccessity.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Last time I tracked my stock Viper with stock-pan (max oil level), I saw my oil pressure drop on a long left. Traqmate data showed average 0.90+ Gs for 5.0+ seconds. It went clearly below 25psi at ~3000rpms. Also noticed it does not recover itself immediately upon straightening. Was acting weird for at least the next 20 seconds (took a while to purge all the air?). Next lap, same behavior, at the same spot. Pitted, verified oil level, and next session out I slowed a bit on that corner to avoid the problem for most of the remaining sessions.

Exact same thing at Gingerman with stock tires, etc. The turn (I think it is turns 5 and 6) are a double apex left hander. Noticed the oil pressure dropping down to around 25 and quickly slowed and returned to the pits. That time I found I was about 1 qt low. I started the event full. The loss was through the oil fill cap, presumably during right hand turns before/during/after hard braking. The next time I intentionally overfilled by 1 qt and did not have the loss of pressure.

 

[Paul Hawker]

I believe the oil pressure gauge is damped like most street cars. You could have lost oil pressure without knowing it for many seconds. Heavy track users should consider replacing it with a non damped unit, and perhaps even a warning light.
Hard to watch your gauges at the speeds turn 8 at Willow generates.

 

[Kai SRT10]

I uploaded pictures of the engine carnage into my member photo gallery here:

http://gallery.viperclub.org/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/6928

 

[Viper Specialty]

Kai- What is the MDH of your car?

I have found out two things from your pictures:

1. there was a Conn Rod change some time in 2004.

2. I am buying a Dry Sump...lol

Here is a mid-2004 Conn Rod;

It still APPEARS to be Forged, tell tale by the forging marks on its edge. Strangely, yours does not have these around the bearing which leads me to believe that maybe you have a later engine with PM rods. your MDH will help me figure out how/when/what changed.