Can we dispel the "poor handling Viper" myth?

[ntmatter]

Can we dispel the \"poor handling Viper\" myth?

I was at the track Monday for a lapping day with the usual suspects, and noticed something. Several people with different cars - 1 Porsche, 1 Corvette, 2 BMW M3s, said at different times that "you pull away from me on the straight, but I catch you in the curves". (Or something to this effect). However, I noticed that as I go to lap them, that I generally was catching up to them in the straights, <u>as well as</u> pushing them through the curves waiting for a passing zone.

My personal experience has been (especially with my new Eibach springs) that my '98 GTS handles at least as well as just about any car I spend time on a track with. There are some exceptions - my Lotus Esprit handled like a slot car and some of the ******** race Porsches will pull away from me - but for some reason everyone else just assumes that the Viper handles like a pig! Is this just urban legend perpetuated by the doofuses who program video games, or is there some reasonable basis for this prejudice? It seems unshakable - even after I hang on the rear bumper of some guy through the corners for an entire lapping day they will still hold to the idea that I only get them in the straights. For now I just smile quietly to myself and change the subject, but I have to say that I'm reaching a boiling point on this issue.

 

[Gerald]

Re: Can we dispel the \"poor handling Viper\" myth?

If I'm not mistaken, isn't the VIper one of the top handling cars in the world? Isn't that what a skid pad number is for?


Gerald

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Re: Can we dispel the \"poor handling Viper\" myth?

Andy,

You are finding out what alot of folks do when they run with other cars on the track. We have a really great bunch of Porsche Clubs around here, and they always welcome us with open arms. When we first started, they always said we could only beat them on the straights. After eating them alive in the twisties, big curves and the straights, they mentioned laughingly that they could still outbrake us. We graciously conceded this fact. Of course you do run into good drivers in all kinds of vehicles and they roar by. The Lotus driver you mentioned might have been just that case, as we have some fairly accomplished Loti drivers around here, and we usually find they only stay with us under braking. I think it all brings us back to the last 2-3 magazine performance vehicle comparisons, where the Snake would win all but one or two of the performance categories, and was always the fastest for track lap times, but the end result would be something like , BMW M3 is the best handling car. They seem to never mention the best PERFORMING car( even though that was there tag line ). Have fun and keep us posted on all the cars you pass, ha.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Re: Can we dispel the \"poor handling Viper\" myth?

Welcome to the race scene. Nobody admits the truth no matter how many times you lap them. No car with a license plate ever passes me unless it's another Viper (hey, some of these guys are fast!). Only the race prepped Ferraris, Porsches, etc., get my wave by. I've yet to see a plated Vette charging in my mirror.

 

[ntmatter]

Re: Can we dispel the \"poor handling Viper\" myth?

This point about "no car with a plate" is a good one. Generally for a non-Viper to pass me it will need to be a prepared car, no plate, no interior, with slicks. I don't think I've been passed recently - in the last 6 months or so - by a plated car with the possible exception of an F-40 (not sure if it had a plate or not - it was trailered in). I also have noticed the same point in car comparisons that generally go something like this:

1. Best time through cone slalom: Viper
2. Best skidpad: Viper
3. Best lap time on road course: Viper
4. Best handling car: Corvette (or Porsche, or M3)

It's seems to be sort of like a blind spot that people have about the car - "Big Torque, Big Engine, must handle bad". Point out that Shelby helped design the suspension and that the brakes were done by Bembro and people change their tunes, sometimes.

A

 

[Mark Young]

Re: Can we dispel the \"poor handling Viper\" myth?

Get used to it. Every car you pass will be "because you got me in the straight". This just means you're not pushing them hard enough through the twisties ;-) They get the impression that they're leading you, instead of them holding you up. It sure is fun though to come onto the straight and eat em up

The last mag I saw had an ACR outpacing the new 911 TT through the slalomn. Its even AWD for xists sake! Oh well.

 

[Stephen Yap]

Re: Can we dispel the \"poor handling Viper\" myth?

Easy to dispel that myth. Do not pass on the straights just follow a safe distance behind then get on their tail in the twisties. Or you can do your pass in the turns! This is probably difficult to do on tight racetracks like SIR or PIR where there is very little room except in the straights but other racetracks will have room.

Done this with known "low hp good handling cars" to show them the light.

 

[joe117]

Re: Can we dispel the \"poor handling Viper\" myth?

Think about it guys. If you are, say, two seconds ahead of some other car, he will be closer to you when you are going 50 than he will when you are going 130. Any lead you have in any race is, of course, a time lead. The distance between the cars will expand on the straight and shrink in the turns. The other guy saying that he was catching you in the turns may be due to his cornering ability but it will for sure be true to some extent even if he is maintaining the same time lead and not catching up in the turns at all.

 

[SoCal Craig]

Re: Can we dispel the \"poor handling Viper\" myth?

Having my Boxster S six months prior to getting my 01 GTS from Bill P., I thought it (the Boxster) was the best handling car ever made (actually, I still think it is... more below). But after going to Viper Days (Buttonwillow) I learned what an awesome handling car the Viper is. It felt better on the track than on public roads. Probably because the track is smoother and there are less things to hit

. It has quicker turn-in, seemingly more grip, and of course, faster track-out assuming you use the throttle judiciously

. I also feel that it corners flatter, and doesn't exhibit any noticable brake dive or squat upon acceleration (even with 200 more HP than Boxster).

That said, the Boxster is much smoother, quieter, and forgiving... yawn

Porsche did get the chassis right on this car but it could use around 100 more HP (that will never happen so long as there is a 911). It is very neutral and very easy to balance in the corners, almost to a fault (i.e. not as much fun). "Big Red" Brembo brakes on the Boxster S are quite nice. I have the 030 sport suspension, lowered it with H&R springs, more negative camber, wider wheels... did I mention that it came with cupholders?

Bottom line... I'm faster on the track in my stock Viper than my slightly modifed Boxster S.

P.S. will someone in Texas set Skyler straight!
http://www.986.org/boards/986/main.pl?read=475864

 

[onerareviper]

Re: Can we dispel the \"poor handling Viper\" myth?

"They know, they know"

*You think these guys don't read the performance mags? Don't let them get under your skin, and don't ever let them pass. Viper's rule, period....

*P.S. - and if they don't let up, just refer them to Motortrend. Viper's set records on the skidpad, slalom, and track. As Cartman would say, "Kick A*s"!!!

Later

 

[Bonkers]

Re: Can we dispel the \"poor handling Viper\" myth?

If it means anything when I was out running my friend's RT I had a serious aversion to pushing it through hard turns at high speed because the rear felt like it was on ice. It was just total inexperience (not to mention a little stress about wrecking a good friends supercar), but I'm sure a lot of spectators don't see that from the stands and only dwell on "Look how slow he HAD to go to get through that turn."

 

[Vreracing]

Re: Can we dispel the \"poor handling Viper\" myth?

I think there is so much Viper envy out there that the only way they could live with themselves is to think there must be some price to pay for owning a Viper. (Such as poor handling) When I was in College a friend of mine would put up with me since all the high grades I made were in technical courses. When I took a history class and made an A and she made a B, she would barely talk to me.

The first time I drove a GTS as I approached the first corner and started to turn in I was expecting a 928 type feel. I was amazed by how neutral the Viper was. The turn in was excellent.


The Viper takes a little different driving style than a Porsche to do well. Setting the car up in a corner takes finesse and practice. If one was to just jump in a Viper and drive it like a Porsche or BMW they would have a very difficult time initially.

I guess what really bugs me is that people learn on one type of a car, gain a level of expertise. They then jump in another car and get upset when it doesn't handle like their old one. They invariably blame the car rather than their own driving skills.

 

[kverges]

Re: Can we dispel the \"poor handling Viper\" myth?

Part of the Viper's rep comes from the many novice drivers who buy the car, show up at a track, and cannot extract the most from the car except when flatfooting in a straight line. More power to these folks exercising the Viper in its native environment, but their level of experience makes the Viper look "slow" in the turns. When a skilled driver opens the full can of whoopass the Viper offers, the startled drivers of "elite" cars continue to say it is just the power.

I would like to see the new M3 on track and its handling prowess. The car is a 3400+ lb pig and if it can make up for its lack of tire and massive weight to hang with the equal weight Viper, I will be shocked.

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Re: Can we dispel the \"poor handling Viper\" myth?

Official Answer, Official Answer !!!


For the record from SCCA.

T1 Class
1. Corvette ZO-6
2. Porsche 996
3. Viper GTS -------------- REQUIRED to have a restrictor plate because it is too fast for the others. Hmmmm, and Bobby Archer, Deb Loth and others are still winning, anyway!!!!


Guess the car does handle well on the track , after all, ha.

 

[dadsvpr]

Re: Can we dispel the \"poor handling Viper\" myth?

you know, someone above mentioned novice driver. i put myself in that category. i haven't gotten my car on a track yet though i did do the skip barber viper autocross school.

i think what it boils down to is everyone knows that an inexperienced driver can get in big trouble if they accelerate prematurely in a curve, the power will cause the tires to break loose and a spinning you will go. I know it really is a bit harder than that, though i did manage to spin skip barbers cars a couple times

. Alot of the european cars are high HP low torque, they can get on it in a curve and by the time they exit they have enough hp built up they can get going. With a viper its stomp and go, whoa!

Anyway I think the car handles fantastic and i look forward to finding its boundries knowing full well with practice (and maybe a good brake upgrade) i'll be able to dominate anything but vipers that has a license plate.

Jason

 

[SNAKOIL VA]

Re: Can we dispel the \"poor handling Viper\" myth?

I agree with a lot that's been said, but I think there is something to be said for carrying weight into and out of a turn.

I race an F5 in the SCCA. It's a 650# (800# minimum with driver) open wheel, open cockpit car with a 500 cc (500cc) engine with a CVT transmission. (Go to www.f500.com if you want to see one.) The SCCA will race a number of different types of cars and engine configs at the same time. This affords me the opportunity to run with Formula Atlantics, F-Toyotas, etc.

While at a test session 3 weeks ago at VIR, I got to run with a bunch of Spec Racer Fords. My rule book is in the trailer, but I think they weigh about 1500# and use a Rousch Ford 2.0 or 2.3 liter engine. What I found is that my lighter weight allowed me to drive further into the turn than they could as they had a whole lot more car to slow down. I'm also running about 1.75" of ground clearance with a perfectly flat belly pan so my body roll is almost zero.

At the ends of the straights, I could basically drive up their rear ends and read the serial numbers on the engine. I trailed them out of the turns and could out accelerate them for a very short period of time until their larger engines pulled away midway and at the ends of the straights. I again caught up with them in the brake zone. Heck, I even passed one on the straights after I got the timing right for laying back in the turn.

So these guys are running an engine 4 times my size, but my lap times are almost equal. My F5 engine puts out roughly 85-90 HP which is about the same HP/Weight ratio as my RT Viper.

I've seen this same phenomena racing against DSR's and CSR's as well. As my car is so lightweight, I can really drive deep into the turns. It's harder to pass in the turns for obvious momentum loss and tight clearances on the driving line. This could be why the much lighter Porches (and what not) look so good in the turns. Their light weight helps them drive into the turn further while the Viper needs to brake sooner due to the weight it is carrying.

In any case, it's really hard to compare club racers and Skip B. school drivers with the pros. Drivers like myself just make too many simple mistakes in each turn to make a comparison between cars and drivers. If we didn't make so many mistakes, Schumacher would be out of a job!




<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by SNAKOIL VA on 04-11-2002 at 08:41 PM</font>

 

[joe117]

Re: Can we dispel the \"poor handling Viper\" myth?

When you dive into a turn and run up on the butt of a 2.3 liter car with your .5 liter car, how did you get in that position? did you run down a straight with him and catch him at the turn? Or are you out breaking a guy who just picked up 20 car lengths on you in a straight and passed you before a turn? No flame here, just asking. If you are lapping quicker than a car that has 2x the weight and 4x the cubes and he isn't limited by more engine/tire restrictions than you are, then something is wrong with all the 2.3 class drivers. Are you beating these guys fair and square? I mean are you faster than they are?

 

[SNAKOIL VA]

Re: Can we dispel the \"poor handling Viper\" myth?

You've got legitimate questions.

For the most part the guys I'm driving up into like that are in the initial braking phase of their turns. When and where they start braking, I'm still on the gas. They may be slowing down to 65-90 mph, I'm still running 110-125 when I get near them. It's the differential approach speed that makes up the distance, if only for 75 yards or so. The SRF's have brake lights, so you can pretty much tell when they are decellerating.

I didn't get into the specifics of their cars as I said my rule book was not available, but yes, the SRF's run a different tire that has grooves in it. I run a slick Hoosier tire. It's a definate disadvantage for them in this case, but we don't race against each other. We're simply on the track at the same time. Common racing courtesy is to wave them on by if you're holding another class of car up. If we were racing against each other, you might not let them make the cut in front of you at the turn. But since we're open wheel and they are closed wheel AND it was a test session, why risk trashing a car you spent all winter rebuilding for the sake of staying in front? My engine is dead on legal.

It is interesting to compare in road racing how a smaller car with a smaller engine might actually be faster in lap times than a bigger car with a bigger engine. It's not unusual to see a car that is faster on the straights be a little less competitive in the turns. (After all, it's overall lap times that count, not straightaway speeds.) I just dug through last year's files to see if I could find some comparisons of various club qualifying times and car types of each. Unfortunately, I don't keep qualifying times for anything other than the group I run with.

 

[Eddie N]

Re: Can we dispel the \"poor handling Viper\" myth?

alot of it is ignorance as well.. the majority of people that will talk smack wont know the first thing about vipers, much less the horsepower rating and skidpad numbers.

- eddie -