Lets talk Paxton

[Shandon]

Ok FI Paxton guys. I have read most all Paxton threads in the last few days and trying to get well informed on the system.

I have plans to get the bottom end on my engine done but that will have to happen at the end of the track/driving season since It has taken some time to get quotes and still deciding on what power adder to do on it. I was leaning Strikers and NA but now reconsidering by using a paxton?

Paxton Questions: (all based on stock internals and a very conservative tune at this time) I do have ballangers, Corsa, Highflow Cats and a Vec3 on the car (engine related).

1. How reliable ON THE TRACK is a stock paxton? Im fine with tunning conservatively until I get the bottom end built in the fall. I will be tracking at least two times a month so the car will see some heavy demand.

2. What other items to be installed are a must for safety on the Paxton system. Larger intercooler (who has the best?) Tensioner (who has the best)??Other??

3. How is heatsoak with heavy use?

4. How is handling (balance of the car) with the 100lb extra lbs. in front of the wheels? I can get the car corner balanced again.

That should be a good start of my questions at this point more to come im sure

Thanks

 

[GR8_ASP]

Well Shandon, since you were parked next to me at the track (Gingerman) last year I presume you have seen Paxton equipped cars run around the track. I can share what I found out so far, from someone much less than an expert driver.

Reliability: Excellent so far. The Paxton uses the stock inlet temperature sensor and adjusts engine control (fuel and spark) such that when inlet temps rise up massive engine cooling occurs. It does impact hp and fuel economy on the track, especially very hot days.

I would suggest a larger intercooler pump for certain. I have the GM punp (should be other posts about it) which increased the flow over the BMW (Bosch) pump that came in the kit. I would also consider a larger intercooler. I have a second intercooler mounted in the back. Serves two purposes: adds coolant volume and an additional radiating source. A 2008 hood would also do wonders for getting heat away as the Paxton system acts as a pretty good obstruction for air flow through the radiator.

I did indeed notice a handling difference. I believe if you added the weight without more power you would lose a few seconds per lap. I increased front tire size to 305's and that seemed to even it out (with 335 rears). Even with that the extra 90 or so lbs is noticeable.

The last factor is a qustion you did not ask. that is the smiles per mile or lap. No question that more power is more fun. At least when you keep the front end leading that it.

 

[SnakeEye]

Ok FI Paxton guys. I have read most all Paxton threads in the last few days and trying to get well informed on the system.

I have plans to get the bottom end on my engine done but that will have to happen at the end of the track/driving season since It has taken some time to get quotes and still deciding on what power adder to do on it. I was leaning Strikers and NA but now reconsidering by using a paxton?

Paxton Questions: (all based on stock internals and a very conservative tune at this time) I do have ballangers, Corsa, Highflow Cats and a Vec3 on the car (engine related).

1. How reliable ON THE TRACK is a stock paxton? Im fine with tunning conservatively until I get the bottom end built in the fall. I will be tracking at least two times a month so the car will see some heavy demand.

2. What other items to be installed are a must for safety on the Paxton system. Larger intercooler (who has the best?) Tensioner (who has the best)??Other??

3. How is heatsoak with heavy use?

4. How is handling (balance of the car) with the 100lb extra lbs. in front of the wheels? I can get the car corner balanced again.

That should be a good start of my questions at this point more to come im sure

Thanks

1. How reliable? How much are you going to be tracking? You get the idea.
2. The Paxton setup is an excellent street setup - this is where it really shines.
3. Heat soak is going to occur. Doug Levin's larger cooler will put it off some but it's going to happen especially at a demanding track event.
4. Added weight in the front is not a good thing but with the right suspension like Motons you shouldn't notice that much difference. Running the wider 295's up front with a good comp alignment could be a plus as well.

My thought is if you track often and are going to go through the expense building the bottem out and putting on stryker heads then staying NA might just be a better way to go. Also if you track at the tighter courses put a set of 3.33 gears in as that will be a notable performance advantage. Just my .02, good luck.

 

[Shandon]

1. How reliable? How much are you going to be tracking? You get the idea.
2. The Paxton setup is an excellent street setup - this is where it really shines.
3. Heat soak is going to occur. Doug Levin's larger cooler will put it off some but it's going to happen especially at a demanding track event.
4. Added weight in the front is not a good thing but with the right suspension like Motons you shouldn't notice that much difference. Running the wider 295's up front with a good comp alignment could be a plus as well.

Snake: Tracking will be twice a month or so. I have motons and quaife so balance and damper adjustment can be done along with another corner balance on the car after install. Heat soak does concern me and I need reliability even if I need to add a water **** setup with the paxton. Thanks for the input.

 

[Shandon]

Well Shandon, since you were parked next to me at the track (Gingerman) last year I presume you have seen Paxton equipped cars run around the track. I can share what I found out so far, from someone much less than an expert driver.

Reliability: Excellent so far. The Paxton uses the stock inlet temperature sensor and adjusts engine control (fuel and spark) such that when inlet temps rise up massive engine cooling occurs. It does impact hp and fuel economy on the track, especially very hot days.

I would suggest a larger intercooler pump for certain. I have the GM punp (should be other posts about it) which increased the flow over the BMW (Bosch) pump that came in the kit. I would also consider a larger intercooler. I have a second intercooler mounted in the back. Serves two purposes: adds coolant volume and an additional radiating source. A 2008 hood would also do wonders for getting heat away as the Paxton system acts as a pretty good obstruction for air flow through the radiator.

I did indeed notice a handling difference. I believe if you added the weight without more power you would lose a few seconds per lap. I increased front tire size to 305's and that seemed to even it out (with 335 rears). Even with that the extra 90 or so lbs is noticeable.

The last factor is a qustion you did not ask. that is the smiles per mile or lap. No question that more power is more fun. At least when you keep the front end leading that it.

I remmeber your car up there and I also remmeber you not having any issues. I have the 08hood and now motons. Like the idea with the tires size change as a option. I figured the weight up there would be a little noticable so glad to see how you handled it.

 

[Stretch]

Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooost!

Shandon can I bribe you for a ride once it's installed so I can feel what boost in a Viper is like????

 

[Paul Hawker]

Don't know about tracking every two weeks with a Paxton.

You will obviously be put into the highest classification so the competition will be fierce.

Heat soak will cause each lap to be different from the one before with traction changing on each corner.

Might want to look at the options for bolt on like headers and heads. If this is not enough, you can always bolt a Paxton on later.

 

[X-Metal]

shannon, next IN vca gtg, i will take you for a ride in one of mine. i have installed about 100 vipers/srt rams with a paxton and there are NO issues.
on the track, heat soak isnt a problem, youre moving. when you pit, then throw a fan on it, and a bag of ice.
the paxton is a super great addition to a viper. its also easier to track than a screw or roots type SC, becuase the torque hit is more controlled with a paxton

 

[Dan Cragin]

I prefer keeping the track cars NA but have several customers who track Paxton SRT's.
We use a colder spark plug, crankcase vent system, 170 Thermostat, PCM Calibration and a much larger heat exchanger and pump. I suggest you use 5 gallons of 100 octane fuel with a tank of gas.
So far no issues with cars running in sessions up to 45 minutes.

We stock these parts.

 

[Viper X]

Shandon,

Quick response, tried it and didn't like it. Way too much heat and other issues on the track.

While you can work around the heat and other issues, IMHO, you'd be better off in a well set up NA car, spending your $$$$ on seat time and driving instructions. Our cars don't need more power on most tracks against most competitors.

My Paxton car is a very cool street cruiser and extremely fast in a straight line or around the track for a lap or two. It's really killer running on "Roval" tracks, i.e. part NASCAR oval and part infield.

My 01 GTS ACR or 09 SRT ACR would kill my Paxton car at almost any track on a hot day running 20 minutes or more. They are both easier on tires, better handling with more predictable throttle response and just plain more dependable mechanically.

Either way, glad you're into performance driving. Too many of us don't even consider it these days.

Good luck,

Dan

 

[VENOMNS]

I would like to know who has fabbed up a air-air intercooler for the 03 - 06 paxton cars?!?!

 

[Dan Cragin]

Here is a link to our heat exchanger and pump upgrade.

DC Performance: Proven Performance

 

[Shandon]

Everyone who PM'd me, Called me and answered on the boards THANK YOU!! Your input and knowledge is more valuable than I can express. FI was on my "not real sure" list as a power adder for track use but glad I asked. I will be staying NA. After the summer the build will begin. Lifes to short to spend half a summer not getting to drive! I got to break this Quaife in anyway! Thanks again Yall!

 

[pteam]

Do your upgrades in the winter, and a 170 thermostat is a must even if NA and tracking.

 

[1BADGTS]

Interesting thread

 

[black mamba1]

I prefer keeping the track cars NA but have several customers who track Paxton SRT's.
We use a colder spark plug, crankcase vent system, 170 Thermostat, PCM Calibration and a much larger heat exchanger and pump. I suggest you use 5 gallons of 100 octane fuel with a tank of gas.
So far no issues with cars running in sessions up to 45 minutes.

We stock these parts.

Why do you recommend 100 octane fuel?

 

[GR8_ASP]

I should add that I also use a colder plug (Champion 10 instead of the stock 12), and a separator in the crankcase ventilation line. Both intended to reduce detonation sensitivity. I also increase the octane through additives for track use as I do not have ready access to higher octane gas. Keith the higher octane is to avoid detonation, which can quickly cause piston failure as hypereutectic aluminum (i.e. high silicon) pistons have much lower toughness (the ability to withstand impact loads without causing fracture).

Hypereutectic material does offer advantages: it has lower thermal growth and thus can be sized closer to the bore diameter (less ring extension, less piston slap), has better scuff resistance for hot piston scuff and reduced ring groover wear. But it has a serious disadvantage. That is the proximity of its yield strength to its ultimate strength. That means when the stess gets high enough to deform the metal it almost immediately fractures. So instead of ring land yielding and stuck rings you have a piston in pieces. Note also that you can cast hypo, eutectic and hypereutectic alloys (though the higher silicon definitely enhances flowability and castability). You can also forge each of them. Forging provides additional properties from the grain structure and cooling properties. That is one reason I stay out of the cast versus forge discussions. It is more of a material difference than a forming process, but both aspects define the finshed character of the metal.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Hopefully I did not make this over technical. That is a personal fault of mine. At least I did not get into dendrite formation and how that impacts the elongation and stress capacity.

 

[Dan Cragin]

Great information on the pistons. Piston ring gap is also a big factor on forced induction engines.

In regards to running better fuel on the track, this is just a safeguard to prevent damage in case of spark knock. The better the fuel the less the chances of detonation. On the street you can get away with the suspect fuel octane when you only drive hard for short bursts. On the track you need some insurance.

 

[black mamba1]

Ok, lets just be real here. Does the 90 extra lbs in the nose really degrade from Viper handling unless you add Motons or other suspension upgrades? Gr8Asp is an ******* (LOL) but he is smart as hell as an engineer, and one Mech Eng to another Mech Eng I enjoy his technical contributions.

However, the Paxton debate is still not settled with me. I have several pm's from guys who say Paxtons are a nightmare on tracks and in hot weather. But guys with Paxtons swear by them. Bottom line is..I will get a Paxton set up and take her up to 800 rwhp. But I am very concerned about the extra weight in the nose when tracking the car.

Is this a major problem?

 

[GR8_ASP]

Ah Keith was the warm hug and kisses for my somewhat conservative political views???

Sorry about the diversion. Weight. The added weight is in the right front, forward of the front wheel centerline. No question that added weight reduces handling, especially transitional. I do not have any suspension changes to offset the effect, only use 305 tires during track sessions. I think to have a good understanding of the impact of the weight would be to drive the car with the superchyarger not being driven compared to an otherwise stock car. I did not do that. Instead having the power increase and weight increase simultaneously. Smiles per mile definitely increased. Handling may have decreased, but the added acceleration makes up for it easily.

 

[spotter]

I think the idea of having multiple heat exchangers would definitely solve the cooling issues. And of course the fuel will be extra insurance.

I loved my paxton, the heat soak was a huge factor with the DLM cooler..
The DC Performance one looks much nicer and definitely put another one in with another pump.
With more water and more heat dissipation room with the extra heat exchanger you can't go wrong.

 

[ViperPWR]

Has anyone used an Air to Air intercooler and trashed the Water to Air? Also, has anyone added Methonal Injection for chemical cooling?

Works great on my Vette, I haven't seen anyone talking about using this type of a setup on this forum. I think you would loose a few pounds also.

 

[vipzilla]

Has anyone used an Air to Air intercooler and trashed the Water to Air? Also, has anyone added Methonal Injection for chemical cooling?

Works great on my Vette, I haven't seen anyone talking about using this type of a setup on this forum. I think you would loose a few pounds also.

beleive it or not this debate has been beaten to death also but in one anser air to air no good with paxton just get a bigger cool charger like i did

 

[plumcrazy]

i had air-air and DLM changed it to air-water with a larger cooler and an extra capacity tank.

i didn't have problems before running on the street but wanted to make sure. ran it hard this weekend in mexico and didn't notice any drop off in power at all

 

[Dan Cragin]

I think I should clarify myself here. If we have a customer who wants a track setup, we always suggest a normally aspirated engine package. The power is more predicable and the engine is more relaible. Having said that, we have many customers with supercharged engines that run track events.
With proper setup and tuning these cars remain reliable.

 

[black mamba1]

Ah Keith was the warm hug and kisses for my somewhat conservative political views???

Sorry about the diversion. Weight. The added weight is in the right front, forward of the front wheel centerline. No question that added weight reduces handling, especially transitional. I do not have any suspension changes to offset the effect, only use 305 tires during track sessions. I think to have a good understanding of the impact of the weight would be to drive the car with the superchyarger not being driven compared to an otherwise stock car. I did not do that. Instead having the power increase and weight increase simultaneously. Smiles per mile definitely increased. Handling may have decreased, but the added acceleration makes up for it easily.

Thanks Gr8. I am going for 750-800 rwhp. I will see how that works for me. My lower end was built up by Chuck Tator to handle the power, and my c/r was dropped to anticipate the blower, it makes no sense to waste the set up. And if I dont like it, I can always remove it and sell the system on VCA. But something tells me there is no way I will be selling this system!

 

[ViperTony]

But something tells me there is no way I will be selling this system!

Gee, you think?!? If I were you, I'd invest in a laser jammer system, front & rear, in addition to a Valentine One. Have your AAA "bail me out" certificate on you at all times.

 

[black mamba1]

Gee, you think?!? If I were you, I'd invest in a laser jammer system, front & rear, in addition to a Valentine One. Have your AAA "bail me out" certificate on you at all times.

My current landscaper is also a Sheriff. He has given me the goods on where to "let it rip" and where to chill. Basically...in the Charlotte city limits (Charlotte is HUGE) I should be ok as long as traffic is not too bad. He said the cops wont really bother you in city limits. Now, once you get outside of Charlotte you got the State Troopers (many of which are Marines!)...and he said these guys LIVE for a good car chase. He told me that no Sheriff or city cop is going to chase a Viper unless its stolen or the driver has committed some kind of felony...and still, they will have second thoughts. They are not trained in those kinds of pursuits. But the State Troopers...a different story. He told me that NO MATTER how fast I am driving when I pass them...they WILL give chase. He also said in NC, the State Troopers never call for back up for a traffic stop, its a macho thing. They are trained to deal with you mano-a-mano...and they want you all to themselves! He told me to avoid high speeds when I approach bridges and overpasses (they hide on the on-ramps), and when I get close to a city, avoid any kind of brush or tree lines. Some troopers hide in clearings they have made in thick brush that divide the highways. And if they catch you doing over 120 mph...they may take the car. He also said a State Trooper with a Crown Vic cannot catch you, and might give up in a chase...but those Troopers in Dodge Chargers and Chevy Impala's WILL NOT give up...and would rather crash than forego the arrest....hmmm.

Bottom line...I simply dont risk it. I never do over 80 mph in my Viper....unless I am challenged by a respectable competitor (Mustangs dont cut it). But I gotta tell ya...the chance to whoop a Zr1's ass or a Z06 gets my blood-a-boiling...I would gladly pay the ticket and go thru all the points on my license and sh*t to let them know...

When u see a Viper...you best bet is to bow down!
ps...only if there is open road and no traffic will I accept the challenge.

 

[SnakeBitten]

^^Will be very hard for you to beat a "stock" ZR1 with your power numbers unless those are old power numbers in your sig I believe they put down over 550rwhp bonestock and around the same rwtq.

At least the reg cops around your way dont chase. Here in NYC they will chase you.