Oil change on Gen 4

[Mopar488]

I was thinking of changing my own oil soon instead of driving 50 miles to the local dealer. Will I get a hassle with warranty coverage? I plan to keep receipts. On Gen 2, the car had to be level to drain due to the position of the drain plug. Does the Gen 4 need to be level also to completley drain?

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

I was thinking of changing my own oil soon instead of driving 50 miles to the local dealer. Will I get a hassle with warranty coverage? I plan to keep receipts. On Gen 2, the car had to be level to drain due to the position of the drain plug. Does the Gen 4 need to be level also to completely drain?

YES has to be very level or you will retain lot's of old oil and probably over fill. Keep all receipts dated and cataloged. Warranty work will get more and more picky in this climate.

 

[FastZilla]

Keep all receipts dated and cataloged. Warranty work will get more and more picky in this climate.

Ok, you gotta explain this one. Just to what extent do we need to "log" maintenance. The dealer just signs (scribbles) in the book and dates. The receipt shows a charge for oil & a filter but there is NO proof they even changed the oil, just good faith. Since we are changing oil at 3k miles or less there is not much oil discoloration so who knows...

 

[FastZilla]

Does the Gen 4 need to be level also to completley drain?

A couple of things I learned today:
The oil pan has a ton of baffling - takes a long time to completely drain.

Oil pump must hold a ton of oil - takes a long time to drain.

There is an "O" ring on the drain plug - I asked for the part number & specs (in case you want to buy one somewhere else) - you may want to replace this. Mine looked deformed (not cut or torn) - I'll be watching for seeping.

Recommend the K&N oil filter because it has the new "nut" on the bottom of it. Makes on/off MUCH easier. You can use a filter "cup" socket or a strap wrench. Belly pan is sheet metal and sharp if the strap wrench slips on you. The oil filter on mine was "JC" tight.

 

[GBS]

I change the oil in all my cars and I have never had a warrenty problem. I do log all my oil changes in an excel spreadsheet but I don't always keep my receipts.

 

[ACRsnake]

oil drain plug 25 ft-lbs
Filter 18 ft-lbs

I put Shell ultra 5W-40 Oil in it , next time will try 10W-60 Castrol Edge Sport .

I will change the o ring next time .

 

[TAXIMAN1]

Ok, you gotta explain this one. Just to what extent do we need to "log" maintenance. The dealer just signs (scribbles) in the book and dates. The receipt shows a charge for oil & a filter but there is NO proof they even changed the oil, just good faith. Since we are changing oil at 3k miles or less there is not much oil discoloration so who knows...

Remember... We have 2 gov. run Auto companies now.

The rules have changed.

 

[Art 138]

Recommend the K&N oil filter because it has the new "nut" on the bottom of it. Makes on/off MUCH easier. You can use a filter "cup" socket or a strap wrench. Belly pan is sheet metal and sharp if the strap wrench slips on you. The oil filter on mine was "JC" tight.

I though there was a strong recommendation to use the OEM type filter with the word SRT on it .....

 

[Flexx91]

I though there was a strong recommendation to use the OEM type filter with the word SRT on it .....

There is and I can't understand why anyone has to deviate from that unless there are some "issues" with the Viper filter we don't know about.

 

[FastZilla]

From what I read - I believe JonB did the write up - is that the SRT oil filter is actually made of a thinner sheet metal and flexes vs cracking like some other oil filters can because they are too rigid - I've heard the term "oil canning" before in respect to monocoque chassis creaking or popping due to flex, seems to be a convenient term for this. The Mobil1 & K&N filters are top-notch, period. The reason I deviate from them is the PITA of going to the dealer and having to order one. I believe they are made by WIX. We all blindly put K&N air filters in our cars because they are better - weather they are or not, enough folks have told us they are better so we do it. Oil filters, same thing. I have NEVER had or even heard of an oil filter rupturing, cracking, etc. I guess it's possible, anything is possible...

Point:
They are all great filters with almost identical filtering levels and capabilities. I figure use the one that is most user friendly, that would be the K&N. However, I presently have a Mobile 1 on there right now because AutoZone is running a special on any 5qts of Mobile 1 and a Mobile 1 filter for $30 thru the end of the month. So you buy 2 of the $30 specials and wind up with and extra oil filter. I have 2 other SRT vehicles that use the same oil filter so the extra one will be used. Even if it's not you can trash it and still save money!

Profitability in any manufacturing business is all about parts reuse/interchangeability. Putting SRT on an oil filter that only fits the 6.1L V8 or V10 kind of makes since - those engines are ONLY available in SRT vehicles, but that is only an assumption. It does make me want to call the dealer and have them pull the part number on the filters for the 2 engines, I bet they are probably the same.

The mystery behind what oil and oil filter is "best" will only be settled when the Ford & Chevy guys and come to an agreement of which one is 2nd best...Mopar is BEST, of course!

The argument can continue - here's some fuel for that fire:
Dupont vs PPG vs Sikkens (paint)
GoJo vs Fast Orange (best hand cleaner)
Michelin vs Hoosier (tires)
Chevron vs Phillips 66 (gas)
Mequiars vs Mothers (car care products)
WD-40 vs Liquid Wrench (penetrating oil)
etc. vs etc.

 

[FastZilla]

I can see a warranty infringement tax imposed on all self performed maintenance or a preferred provider warranty program where all vehicle owners must pay a $600/mo per vehicle fee for a government mandated maintenance program to ensure every vehicle will receive equal care regardless of it's owner...

I think I just went off the deep end....

Remember... We have 2 gov. run Auto companies now.

The rules have changed.

 

[Steve-Indy]

The concern is NOT JUST about the "can".

Remember Mark's post: "
"The K&N and Mobil filters are to(o) fine a filter and will generally go into bypass before the regular filters."

P.S. I added the second "o" seen in parentheses as I'm sure that he meant "too".

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

The MOST important FACTS about the filter differences have to do with the filters bypass systems. The Mopar filters will filter as good as any because if the filters as Mobil1 and K&N do have too fine of filtering the cold oil will push the bypass open during cold start and then what happens? The dirty oil goes in at start up when the motor needs the cleanest oil... This is also true if the oil pressure is high and there is any dirt in the filter to further increase resistance. If this is the case you could be bypassing all the time with these "super" filters. This is the reason you should be using the SRT filters for your cars.

On the question of if there are cheaper Mopar and aftermarket filters that interchange, sure there are BUT they are not designed the same way with a good bypass coil spring and neoprene gaskets instead of a flat snap spring and rubber (that can fail and bypass all the time).

Also back to the warranty issue your claim CAN BE DENIED if there are not "proof" of filters and oil purchased and the dates it was changed. This will be largely not dealer decided, but done by a zone rep that answers to the warranty claims center so you have to decide if it is worth the gamble on a $16K engine.

From what I read - I believe JonB did the write up - is that the SRT oil filter is actually made of a thinner sheet metal and flexes vs cracking like some other oil filters can because they are too rigid - I've heard the term "oil canning" before in respect to monocoque chassis creaking or popping due to flex, seems to be a convenient term for this. The Mobil1 & K&N filters are top-notch, period. The reason I deviate from them is the PITA of going to the dealer and having to order one. I believe they are made by WIX. We all blindly put K&N air filters in our cars because they are better - weather they are or not, enough folks have told us they are better so we do it. Oil filters, same thing. I have NEVER had or even heard of an oil filter rupturing, cracking, etc. I guess it's possible, anything is possible...

Point:
They are all great filters with almost identical filtering levels and capabilities. I figure use the one that is most user friendly, that would be the K&N. However, I presently have a Mobile 1 on there right now because AutoZone is running a special on any 5qts of Mobile 1 and a Mobile 1 filter for $30 thru the end of the month. So you buy 2 of the $30 specials and wind up with and extra oil filter. I have 2 other SRT vehicles that use the same oil filter so the extra one will be used. Even if it's not you can trash it and still save money!

Profitability in any manufacturing business is all about parts reuse/interchangeability. Putting SRT on an oil filter that only fits the 6.1L V8 or V10 kind of makes since - those engines are ONLY available in SRT vehicles, but that is only an assumption. It does make me want to call the dealer and have them pull the part number on the filters for the 2 engines, I bet they are probably the same.

The mystery behind what oil and oil filter is "best" will only be settled when the Ford & Chevy guys and come to an agreement of which one is 2nd best...Mopar is BEST, of course!

The argument can continue - here's some fuel for that fire:
Dupont vs PPG vs Sikkens (paint)
GoJo vs Fast Orange (best hand cleaner)
Michelin vs Hoosier (tires)
Chevron vs Phillips 66 (gas)
Mequiars vs Mothers (car care products)
WD-40 vs Liquid Wrench (penetrating oil)
etc. vs etc.

 

[FastZilla]

Steve you bring up a great point:
At what point is there too much filtering?

Filters going into bypass would take a TON of crap in them. What would cause a sudden flow of crap into the filter - sudden being during the 3k mile change interval? My thought would be, aside from the oil fill cap being left open and you driving down a dirt road for a few thousand miles, that there would have to be a catastrophic failure within the engine - bearing, valve guide, valve guide/stem seal, gasket, oil pump disintegration, head gasket letting go, etc. Other wise there will just be normal contaminates from combustion - suit, etc. which if in 3k miles is enough to put the oil filter into bypass....

Well, if any of the above "logical" situations occur then you're gonna know about it long before the oil filter goes into bypass. Little things like rough running, metal parts flying thru the hood, white or blue smoke out the pipes, oil pressure reading 20 or less, engine temps over 250, etc. etc.

Your choices:
1. Go with a coarser filter to allow more crap to circulate thru your engine to prevent the oil filter from going into bypass....did I just say that???

2. Ignore all the tale tale signs that you have an internal engine problem that is causing your oil filter to fill up with crap and go into bypass.

Preventative maintenance:
Check your oil once in a while - dipstick, look inside the oil fill for dirt/build-up.

Lets face it - if we need a filter to cross the Sarah desert on a cross country trip in a 3rd world country then yes, you WOULD want a lesser filter that allowed for some filtration in spite of dirty oil. Just to keep engine running so you were not stuck on the middle of the desert - not necessarily a common need/situation/use we come across in a Viper.

In my work trucks there is an extra oil and fuel filter in every truck. You can always find oil and fuel, not always can you find filters.

If you want to see what is happening with your engine(aka you are that concerned about it) then send a sample of your oil to Blackstone for analysis. Or buy a oil filter cutter (use a big pipe/tubing cutter for you plumbers out there) and open up your oil filters and check them out. Tear off the paper filter media and shine a flash light thru it.

Notice all the crap/dirt/etc in it - that's a joke! Most of them will look brand new!

I'm not one to take things at face value - obviously it's reflected in my posts.

 

[ROCKET62]

Has anyone actually cracked open a used filter to see what kind and how much crud we are actually trapping? It seems that many of us are fanatical about our Vipers and when i just checked my oil after about 4000 miles (Mobil 1 with Mopar Filter) it still looks very clean. I will definitely crack my can and report back as I will be changing my oil shortly as I am planning a fairly lengthy trip.

New oil/filter certainly is cheap insurance though.

 

[FastZilla]

Mark I appreciate the reply - I figure you are definitely one of the guys who would "know".

I too am aware of the different spring set ups in oil filters as well as also knowing to watch the oil pressure guage for bypass operation.

Here is the construction of the K&N, it's exactly as you describe for the factory WIX (It is Wix is it not?).

K&N Oil Filters - Oil Filters for Cars, Trucks, Motorcycles, ATV's, Boats, and more!

Mobile 1 does NOT have cut-aways on their website but stress the synthetic fiber flow consistency and advantage vs the paper filter media. Also addressed it cold oil and surge protection by the ability to flow the oil vs having to bleed it off via bypass.

For the warranty info, thx! It's Nice to know where we stand as vehicle owners. Owning 11 Chrysler vehicles that 90% are less that 3 yrs old, and looking to add 2-3 more this year, I sure hope Chrysler doesn't pull that warranty denial crap based upon not utilizing SRT oil filters (vs K&N or Mobil 1 - not the 99 cent cheap-o).... Or trying to match receipts to oil change dates, wow, The oil put in the ACR was bought almost a month before it was installed. Based on the great deal AutoZone is offering on Mobile 1 I now have about 60 qts of 0w-40 and about 15 Mobil 1 filters. I will be cutting the old filters open to inspect.

Best thing would be to cut open a factory filter and a M1/K&N filter. Pull the bypass springs and test the spring tension to see which one is "stiffer" to prevent bypass w/cold oil or surges. Maybe a project I'd do with all the extra filters I have that I'll never use....

I sincerely hope Chrysler doesn't lose their minds concerning warranty. We do have the Magnuson (sp) act to fall back on - either way lawyers will profit, not us loyal owners.


hmmm....let's hope we all don't go there.

The MOST important FACTS about the filter differences have to do with the filters bypass systems. The Mopar filters will filter as good as any because if the filters as Mobil1 and K&N do have too fine of filtering the cold oil will push the bypass open during cold start and then what happens? The dirty oil goes in at start up when the motor needs the cleanest oil... This is also true if the oil pressure is high and there is any dirt in the filter to further increase resistance. If this is the case you could be bypassing all the time with these "super" filters. This is the reason you should be using the SRT filters for your cars.

On the question of if there are cheaper Mopar and aftermarket filters that interchange, sure there are BUT they are not designed the same way with a good bypass coil spring and neoprene gaskets instead of a flat snap spring and rubber (that can fail and bypass all the time).

Also back to the warranty issue your claim CAN BE DENIED if there are not "proof" of filters and oil purchased and the dates it was changed. This will be largely not dealer decided, but done by a zone rep that answers to the warranty claims center so you have to decide if it is worth the gamble on a $16K engine.

 

[FastZilla]

Forgot to put this in the post:
I noticed that after I swapped to the M1 filter that my oil pressure actually dropped a tad (about a needle width). I don't know what that relates to as far as PSI but it does tell me that there is less resistance in the system now. And since the oil pump dumps directly into the oil filter and the only change made was the oil filter (same 0w40 M1 oil was used) - the filter MUST be flowing better. Only a assumption.

 

[Viper Specialty]

A Pressure DROP at the gauge sending unit, which is AFTER the filter, indicates an INCREASE in filter flow resistance, not the other way around.

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

A Pressure DROP at the gauge sending unit, which is AFTER the filter, indicates an INCREASE in filter flow resistance, not the other way around.

+1 or 2

 

[Steve-Indy]

FastZilla, I really appreciate your posts on this...as well as everyone else's. I must admit, that I have not seen any really scientific , large numbered, contemporary studies on this issue specifically comparing the filters being discussed....though there was a "series-of-one" "filter study" posted on Bobistheoilguy many years ago which was interesting as it compared a few different filters including Mobil, Fram, K&N, etc., but had NO statistical validity in my opinion.

Much of the worry also rev'ed up over bearing failures with track usage...and, as time moved along(as you know) there have been many evolutions in the Viper system...oil pan size, baffles, pickups...bearing groove modification, etc. I can remember when the Mopar Performance Catalogue showed the Mobil M1-204 as the performance filter for a Viper!! Somewhere along the line, things changed, and NOW Dodge recommends a specific filter...which I now use, though I had no problems with the M1-204 that I used on all of our Gen I-III Vipers. I'm really not much of an experimenter, so when the folks that make the car have a recommendation, I am inclined to go along with it.

Some day when you are BORED, drop by our coffee shop here in Indy, and we can poor over my 3" thick book of oil analysis reports from Blackstone!!!

 

[Westxsrt10]

From what I read - I believe JonB did the write up - is that the SRT oil filter is actually made of a thinner sheet metal and flexes vs cracking like some other oil filters can because they are too rigid - I've heard the term "oil canning" before in respect to monocoque chassis creaking or popping due to flex, seems to be a convenient term for this. The Mobil1 & K&N filters are top-notch, period. The reason I deviate from them is the PITA of going to the dealer and having to order one. I believe they are made by WIX. We all blindly put K&N air filters in our cars because they are better - weather they are or not, enough folks have told us they are better so we do it. Oil filters, same thing. I have NEVER had or even heard of an oil filter rupturing, cracking, etc. I guess it's possible, anything is possible...

Point:
They are all great filters with almost identical filtering levels and capabilities. I figure use the one that is most user friendly, that would be the K&N. However, I presently have a Mobile 1 on there right now because AutoZone is running a special on any 5qts of Mobile 1 and a Mobile 1 filter for $30 thru the end of the month. So you buy 2 of the $30 specials and wind up with and extra oil filter. I have 2 other SRT vehicles that use the same oil filter so the extra one will be used. Even if it's not you can trash it and still save money!

Profitability in any manufacturing business is all about parts reuse/interchangeability. Putting SRT on an oil filter that only fits the 6.1L V8 or V10 kind of makes since - those engines are ONLY available in SRT vehicles, but that is only an assumption. It does make me want to call the dealer and have them pull the part number on the filters for the 2 engines, I bet they are probably the same.

The mystery behind what oil and oil filter is "best" will only be settled when the Ford & Chevy guys and come to an agreement of which one is 2nd best...Mopar is BEST, of course!

The argument can continue - here's some fuel for that fire:
Dupont vs PPG vs Sikkens (paint)
GoJo vs Fast Orange (best hand cleaner)
Michelin vs Hoosier (tires)
Chevron vs Phillips 66 (gas)
Mequiars vs Mothers (car care products)
WD-40 vs Liquid Wrench (penetrating oil)
etc. vs etc.

I have both version Viper oil filters here and set them on a scale, the SRT filter is heaver @ 17 oz compaired to 14oz on the non SRT black version.. The outer case feels stronger also.

 

[Mopar488]

I changed the oil & filter @ 500 miles last September. A year later, I am @ 2100 miles and don't expect to go over 1000 in the next 6-7 months. I use 0W40 Mobil 1 and the SRT filter. I am wondering if, time wise, would it be a problem to wait until early next Spring to change the oil & filter since I would be about 3000 miles from last oil change at that time, but nearly 18 months. I hear that synthetics do not break down like conventional oil over time.

 

[FastZilla]

This is good info! I do not have a service manual for the new one and things like this I am not familiar with, yet. Thanks for this insight & correction! Now either I was seeing things or one too many beers after/during the oil change. I also wonder how accurate those sending units are and if the needle width I saw is even valid (heck the thing is over 90 psi at start!), well it still looks like it's down a bit.

I cut my teeth in the auto industry for almost 3 years working in a German auto repair shop, going thru school. Mainly Porsches & BMWs with a few Mercedes every now and then. Oil in an air cooled engine is hyper critical as it is subject to far more abuse than any water cooled engine. Loose tolerances to accommodate expansion during warm up = more blow-by and dirty oil. We always used Mahle filters with K&N upon request. The factory filter is a Purolator with Shell oils (mid-`90's) - have no clue what it is now. I was hired because of my electronics background from the Military. Wound up working more on the BMWs and FI air-cooled Porsches...mmmmm, K-Jettronic. Anyhow - I'll get this Viper thingy figured out soon enough.

For now - I wonder if there is a way to "flow bench" an oil filter? I hate having to be tied to a specific oil filter that I can't buy anywhere! I feel it's almost a terror tactic. If the SRT oil filter is really that much better then there MUST be some empirical data somewhere. Maybe Herb knows... There has to be some test data, somewhere. No manufacturer spends the money to develop a specialty part without darn good reason. Tons more money than just outsourcing it.

A Pressure DROP at the guage sending unit, which is AFTER the filter, indicates an INCREASE in filter flow resistance, not the other way around.

 

[FastZilla]

When I worked at the Porsche shop my boss made me open up every oil filter I removed. He was pretty anal to say the least...old ex-hippie with hair down to his butt but knew absolutely everything about a Porsche...

I just changed the oil on my SRT Jeep today. Here is the inside of the filter - nothing that I could see with the naked eye.

I took photos of the part numbers on the filter because I'm curious if it's the same for the Viper (Both the 6.1L & V10 use the M1-210 filter). Also I bought the Longacre oil filter cutter - that's the part number in the photo.

Photo 454 is the dirty/input side.
Photo 456 is the clean/output side.

IMO - It's pretty clean.

Has anyone actually cracked open a used filter to see what kind and how much crud we are actually trapping? It seems that many of us are fanatical about our Vipers and when i just checked my oil after about 4000 miles (Mobil 1 with Mopar Filter) it still looks very clean. I will definitely crack my can and report back as I will be changing my oil shortly as I am planning a fairly lengthy trip.

New oil/filter certainly is cheap insurance though.

 

[FastZilla]

I'm hoping Herb can decode the SRT filter for us all:
http://forums.viperclub.org/grail-trail/629200-new-srt-oil-filter-help.html#post2740545

 

[JonB]

Just to clarify......

I have many years recommeded MoBil One Filters and Oil, or the (newer) MoPar SRT specific filters. In a pinch, due to extensive consumer studies I also am confident in, and use NAPA-GOLD filters.

To clarify the heftiness of the filters.....I, too, decided that Made In USA / heavier Mobil One was better than Made In Poland / lighter MoPar, in terms of an oil filter. But an SRT engineer that I have known for 16+ years set me straight at VOI-10......the lighter case is more maleable, and less likley to rupture at a seam.

Filter on.......... {Semper FIlter?}

 

[FastZilla]

Here's the answer from the SRT engineers. Figured I'd post here for future searches.

Looks like the main reason I steer clear of OEM oil filters (paper/cellulose filter media) is no longer an issue. The New SRT oil filter has synthetic filter media - awesome!!!! These guys really did think of everything! Just bought 2 today - same price as M1 or K&N.

From the SRT Engineers:
The SRT oil filter for all the past engines and the new 22mm inlet SRT filter for the Gen 4 and beyond engines share the same characteristics.
We worked with many of the filter suppliers to get the best features. Some fell out for various performance reasons but we ended up developing the current SRT filters with one of the mainstream manufacturers (it is different than their commercial offerings - or at least was when we developed it). The high flow oil pumps in our large engines (Viper is the biggest) can overpower the internal relief valve. When this valve opens it allows some of the high pressure dirty oil to bypass the filter element in order to keep the filter from being damaged. The SRT filters do indeed have a higher differential bypass valve to make sure all the oil delivered to your powerplant is clean. The housing is slightly thicker than many of the brands out there to handle the pressure but is not the thickest. The real thick ones failed our development testing (fractured at the crimped flange). The media used was one of the latest synthetics that allowed very fine filtration, more debris capacity, and much lower restriction than our standard Mopar filter (and just about every other filter out there). The final result was clean oil to your Snake, all the time, with more pressure to the internals where it is needed. I would fully recommend using this filter in your beast, I do in mine. Hope this info helps. KCC

 

[dans69ss]

Anyone have the part # for the SRT filter?

 

[Steve-Indy]

2008 and 2009 Mopar oil filter part number:

05038041AA

 

[FastZilla]

1-05038041AA

Mine were $9.56 each - that's a little cheaper than a M1 filter and about 30% cheaper than a K&N.