The LETHAL 750 has landed!!!

[LTHL VPR]

After significant testing, research, and development, we have finalized what we believe is the ULTIMATE performance package for the Dodge Viper. First came the LETHAL 500, then the LETHAL 600, and next the LETHAL 650.

Now introducing............. the <FONT size="5">LETHAL 750</FONT s>
Utlizing the Viper's tremendous platform, we have improved and strengthened everything 'under the hood'... and then some.

<FONT size="5">The RESULT: Over 750 hp and 800 ft.lbs tq.!!</FONT s>

(ALL MOTOR: no nitrous, turbochargers, or superchargers)

The car even runs strong on our lousy 91 Octane in CA.

I will provide more specifics and a DYNO graph shortly in the 'New Products' area.

Our main goals were:

1)Naturally aspirated power: Our first goal was to make this power with a naturally aspirated package. That means no nitrous, superchargers, turbochargers, etc.. We wanted to build a package that everyone could enjoy and use ALL THE TIME on the street, on the road course, and at the drag-strip.


2)Ultimate drivability: We wanted to create a package that would not effect your normal cruising/driving; your car would start and idle without a hiccup, and for all intensive purposes, until you mashed the throttle, the car would behave like a stock one.


3)Ulitmate reliability: Our philosophy at APEX Motorsports is 'WE CUT NO CORNERS'. There is a VERY GOOD REASON why we chose these parts for our package: they work GREAT together. We took many steps to ensure the parts were of the highest quality, built to withstand extreme conditions, and to provide you with tens of thousands of miles of smiles!


4)Cost effective: Lastly, we wanted to make our packages cost-effective and represented significant savings for comparable packages.

Our goals may sound simple, but with this much power running on 91 Octane while maintaining fantastic driveability; this proved to be a challenging project.

Stay tuned!!

 

[treynor]

Wayne,
Come on now, give it up

What did it dyno, and how much are you charging? Inquiring minds (with stock Vipers parked in the garage) want to know...

 

[LTHL VPR]

Ben-
Without giving everything away....
Let's just say it made over 700 rwtq peak and registered over 600 rwtq from 2500 rpms-5500 rpms. As you already know....that's ACCELERATION for you!!!!

As another teaser.... it made more power by 3200 rpms than most stock Vipers make at peak power.

Patience is a virtue!!
I'll call you tomorrow to discuss.
-Wayne

 

[treynor]

Aaaah, Wayne, you should know better than to give "teaser" figures to a mathematically-inclined guy like myself. Based on your figures, I just create a quick model and come up with a predicted dyno graph:

You must be registered for see images

We'll see how close I was tomorrow morning

 

[Martin D]

Interesting. That is good news.
Based on your statement that you have strengthened everything under the hood, I am sure that includes- Rods, Pistons and Crank. So, my bet is you stroked it!

Look forward to more info.

Regards,

 

[-RUNNR]

Those numbers are just plain sick for a NA engine!!!

Congrats!!!

 

[MichaelP]

To those of you in the know how much does a lethal 500, the lethal 600 and the lethal 650 cost so we can try to figure out how much the new Lethal 750 will run?

Thanks

 

[USAF BAD ASP]

awesome numbers man! As soon as the airforce makes me a 6 figure guy I'll call ya up!

I want one!

 

[King GTS]

"Lethal 750" interesting?

 

[Mark Young]

FINALLY! I've known about this car for a while and I watched it dyno yesterday. All I can say is... HOLY CRAP! The torque on this car is just rediculous, and not just the peak torque, I'm talking about the torque on tap at 3K revs when you're droppin the hammer on some poor poopra!

Anyway, congrats to APEX, its a killer package. Take a look under the hood and you wouldn't know it wasn't just a header package. But when you hear it fire up and spin that dyno, YOU KNOW SOMETHING JUST AINT RIGHT! And, in true APEX tradition, the car seems bulletproof - all motor, pump gas, good a/f ratio. Wait till you all see the dyno!

Congrats.

 

[rgifford]

Just an observation here.....

Little Kid: I got the answer, I got the answer

Adult: Ok, what is it??

Little Kid: I am not telling, I am not telling, I got the answer, I got the answer..

Adult: Ok, I give you a 5 dollar bill for the answer

Little Kid: I am not telling, I am not telling, I got the answer, I got the answer.

Adult(To his frieds): Screw it, I am sure I can buy some other kid off with 5 bucks, I am waisting my time.

Little Kid: Where are you going??? I'll tell you, I'll tell you........

Adult: Forget it kid, you missed your chance...


My thougts on the mattter, why make a post like this and not release any of the details. It make me <FONT size="6">NOT</FONT s>
interested.

Money buring a hole in my pocket, Robert

 

[Bonkers]

You know LTHL, inciting a riot is illegal in most states...

 

[varanus]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rgifford:
Just an observation here.....

Little Kid: I got the answer, I got the answer

Adult: Ok, what is it??

Little Kid: I am not telling, I am not telling, I got the answer, I got the answer..

Adult: Ok, I give you a 5 dollar bill for the answer

Little Kid: I am not telling, I am not telling, I got the answer, I got the answer.

Adult(To his frieds): Screw it, I am sure I can buy some other kid off with 5 bucks, I am waisting my time.

Little Kid: Where are you going??? I'll tell you, I'll tell you........

Adult: Forget it kid, you missed your chance...


My thougts on the mattter, why make a post like this and not release any of the details. It make me <FONT size="6">NOT</FONT s>
interested.

Money buring a hole in my pocket, Robert


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[varanus]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rgifford:
Just an observation here.....

Little Kid: I got the answer, I got the answer

Adult: Ok, what is it??

Little Kid: I am not telling, I am not telling, I got the answer, I got the answer..

Adult: Ok, I give you a 5 dollar bill for the answer

Little Kid: I am not telling, I am not telling, I got the answer, I got the answer.

Adult(To his frieds): Screw it, I am sure I can buy some other kid off with 5 bucks, I am waisting my time.

Little Kid: Where are you going??? I'll tell you, I'll tell you........

Adult: Forget it kid, you missed your chance...


My thougts on the mattter, why make a post like this and not release any of the details. It make me <FONT size="6">NOT</FONT s>
interested.

Money buring a hole in my pocket, Robert

Arrgh. Stupid computer. my response was I know how you feel. I will more than likely be spending my money on the Roe SC and nitrous because I know what it will be , what it costs, who makes it, etc. I think a lot of tuners will miss opportunities because they are the last to let people know what they have and costs. Toomany teasers out right now. Sean was in the lead with price expectations etc. Right now there are too many announcements at unlisted or really rough cost estimates on different upgrades, Makes my head spin. I could wait for the completion of the next turbo setup, but it may or may not ever happen. I do remember a post about a stereo upgrade asking everyone what they thought. After that we never heard from them again.
It's like putting off buying a computer because a faster one is around the corner. You miss the enjoyment now waiting for something better that will happen, but you're not sure when. Plus I have the money now, not sure where I'll be 6 months down the road.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[LTHL VPR]

WOW!!!
The natives seem to be getting restless....
As you can see at the top of this thread, I posted this last night at almost 10:00 p.m. PST. I had no dyno charts in hand (I was at home, not in the shop) , and all the parts were not compiled onto a nice, clean list.

Since we frequently get e-mails asking about new Viper products and packages, I wanted to give those of you waiting to hear these results information as soon as it became available.

Now that I am back in the shop, I will post some specifics in the performance section pronto!!!

Thanks for your patience.
-Wayne

 

[LTHL VPR]

You can now see some of the engine specifics in the performance area- http://www.viperclub.org/menus/index_global.asp?url=http://vca1.viperclub.org/cgi-bin/ubb-cgi/Ultimate.cgi

Thanks.
-Wayne

 

[HP]

Some of you just need to lighten-up! All of us like to have 1st insight into what's brewin, who's workin on what. TALKIN ABOUT SHOOTIN THE MESSENGER, well maybe NA motors aren't your cup
of tea, in that case look elsewhere. For me, the simpler the better, the less cluttered and more accesible the engine is the
better. When the normal maintenance items, such as belts, plugs and oil filter, become a nightmare to get to, then things may
be just a little too complicated. I've had turbos in the past
and the under the hood heat causes anything rubber or plastic, in the engine bay, to degrade in short order. WHEN SOMEONE HAS SOMETHIN GOIN ON, ENQUIRING MINDS (LIKE ALL US POWER JUNKIES) WANT TO KNOW- I think we got a good intro- "Hold onto your money, it's late in the day - no place to spend it- I'm sure Wayne will dot his i's and cross his t's , run it by his lawyers and accountants, and be back tomorrow morning. LIGHTEN UP, YOU'LL LIVE LONGER!!!

 

[LTHL VPR]

Dyno numbers are listed in the 'DYNO' area. Graphs will be up this evening.
Stay tuned. We plan on coaxing some more power from it by the end of the week (one of the reasons I had orginally planned on holding off on posting the numbers).
I'll keep everyone updated on the FINAL numbers by Sat.
Thanks again.
-Wayne

 

[Mark Young]

I posted this in the dyno chart section, but here it is on this thread for completeness:

You must be registered for see images

 

[CNTW84U]

Wayne, now you have me second guessing my decission.
As per you e-mail tonight, I understand the process is
underway to build the L650, should I consider
the L750? Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Bob

 

[varanus]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HP:
Some of you just need to lighten-up! All of us like to have 1st insight into what's brewin, who's workin on what. TALKIN ABOUT SHOOTIN THE MESSENGER, well maybe NA motors aren't your cup
of tea, in that case look elsewhere. For me, the simpler the better, the less cluttered and more accesible the engine is the
better. When the normal maintenance items, such as belts, plugs and oil filter, become a nightmare to get to, then things may
be just a little too complicated. I've had turbos in the past
and the under the hood heat causes anything rubber or plastic, in the engine bay, to degrade in short order. WHEN SOMEONE HAS SOMETHIN GOIN ON, ENQUIRING MINDS (LIKE ALL US POWER JUNKIES) WANT TO KNOW- I think we got a good intro- "Hold onto your money, it's late in the day - no place to spend it- I'm sure Wayne will dot his i's and cross his t's , run it by his lawyers and accountants, and be back tomorrow morning. LIGHTEN UP, YOU'LL LIVE LONGER!!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nobody is really going heavy on this topic in a really bad way, so I don't see where we need to lighten up. I see you've registered April 8th, so maybe you haven't been around very long. You've never seen some of the posts with big claims. If not, how would you know where some member's thought processes are shaped from previous posts. A while back there was a post for an incredible SC system with monstrous hp. Everyone got excited but no price was announced. If you were in the market for something like this at the time, wouldn't you want to know the price? I think in the end it came out to $60K or $80K. Now are you still excited? Price in your ballpark? Maybe not, Nothing like building up your hopes and excitment only to have it be out of your reach.
Personally, I do think this is another great gain in the Viper world. But in case you don't know, 700 hp NA viper motors already exist. Check Lingenfelter.
The high hp NA is definitely great, but I've seen it before as have others. The big news would be if the price is way down. If it costs $30-35K, nothing is really gained. This product at that price already exists.You can get 725hp from lingenfelter for 38K I think, and get his reputation with it. Some folks here would really be excited and consider it big news if the pkg had a great price. .now that would be news!
Hugh, maybe you have 35k laying around for 700 hp, but I don't. and I would imagine others may not either. That's why people want to know what it will costr or at least a ball park estimate. Plus doesnt the dyno graph come out at closer to 660hp? For some people if the lethal 750 costs 30K and gets 660hp, at this price point money is not an issue to them. They may decide for another 8-10K more, it will be worth getting 75hp more.
This is not a flame. I think the lethal 750 is a nice accomplishment as it gives people another NA high hp option. Big Congrats to Wayne for his project. But like I said, cost is what we would really like to know.
Just some thoughts on the reasoning behind the posts you considered very negative and should be lightened up on. All opinions whether you agree or disagree on help everyone in some way.

 

[rgifford]

By the way is that SAE corrected dyno??

 

[Janni]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rgifford:
By the way is that SAE corrected dyno??

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Looks like it says "Actual" not SAE to me.... Can we get corrected numbers so that we can make accurate comparisons? Thanks!

 

[EXECMALIBU]

DID APEX GO OUT OF BUSSINESS??

WE HAVE CALLED THEM ON NUMEROUS OCCASSIONS FOR OVER A WEEK!

WE HAVE CALLED AT 9:00AM, 10:00 AM, 2:30 PM ECT ON DIFFERENT DAYS.. THEIR MACHINE SAYS THAT THEY ARE IN FROM 8AM-4PM TUES-SAT..WE HAVE LEFT SEVERAL MESSAGES WITH NO RETURN CALLS!!

WE HAD INTENDED TO SPEND MONEY WITH THEM BUT WE WOULD BE VERY UPSET AND NERVOUS IF OUR CARS WERE IN THEIR SHOP AND WE COULD NOT REACH THEM DURING NORMAL BUSINESS HOURS FOR DAYS ON END!!

HAS ANYONE ELSE ALSO HAD ANY PROBLEMS REACHING THEM??

 

[AJ]

well, with all the force-fed competition, this n/a package should not cost more than $12-15k. if it does- those folks are pricing themselves out of the competition.

however, somehow i have the feeling that it will be more...

from what i have seen so far on this board, the viper crowd ought to be one of the most gullable and ***** community in terms performance/cost.

but this is what you get when a car is too expensive and thus attracts often people that are not necessary mechanically-inclined, but still want performance.

alex
02 gts
few other cars

 

[RedGTS]

If this package is $12k I'll drive to Cali Monday and have them start work. Ain't gonna happen.

Ronnie

 

[LTHL VPR]

Jeff-
I just finished speaking with you, and then I noticed your post on the board. I apologize for taking a day to return your call.

It was great speaking with you. We look forward to working on your car; I see the LETHAL 650 in your future..... it will really spruce up your red RT/10!!

As I mentioned to you, we have been very busy fielding calls and answering questions about the LETHAL 750, finalizing the parts, and getting ready for some exciting upcoming events(stay tuned)!!
In addition, our receptionist took a couple days off for family business. Even with our staff of 6 in today, we are running around like crazy. Thanks for your patience!

 

[MichaelP]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AJ:
well, with all the force-fed competition, this n/a package should not cost more than $12-15k. if it does- those folks are pricing themselves out of the competition.

however, somehow i have the feeling that it will be more...

from what i have seen so far on this board, the viper crowd ought to be one of the most gullable and ***** community in terms performance/cost.

but this is what you get when a car is too expensive and thus attracts often people that are not necessary mechanically-inclined, but still want performance.

alex
02 gts
few other cars

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


AJ with the Lethal 650 costing 20K + you are a LITTLE low in what you THINK it SHOULD cost.

 

[LTHL VPR]

There are some great questions that have been posted, so I wanted to take this opportunity to answer most of them.
Here we go....

1) This is a naturally aspirated, fully built and stroked engine. Not a bolt on supercharger package. As a result of the cost of all the parts (aircraft billet crank, pistons, rods, camshaft, heads, etc....), I don't think it makes sense to compare it to such a package.

2) I always like to think that the cost of the package is indicative of value, not power. For example, if you have $1000 worth of parts in a package and charge $2500 for the parts it does not represent as good of a value when compared to a package that has $5000 worth of parts and charges $6000 for them. I hope this makes sense.

3) People have some questions about the dyno graphs:
a) We calculate the power our packages produce using the 'universal' formula: rwhp/.85= flywheel hp. So rwhp= 639.4 = 752 hp at the engine! Same for torque 715.1rwtq= 841.3 tq at the engine.
b)I believe someone overlayed our dyno graph with that of another tuner's package. If this graph was accurate then it appeared that our package made considerably more power and torque across the entire rpm band. Someone responded that a stroker kit has 'already been done' and that if it didn't cost less...... Well, you are correct. Other stroker kits have been made, but I have not seen any to date with dyno numbers that match ours unless they are using nitrous (they may exist, but I have not seen them). So, for example, if our car makes an average of 80 rwtq and 50 rwhp more than another tuner's package, then I would say this IS, in fact, something new, and that it hasn't necessarily 'been done' before. Another responded that our package looks like the torque drops off quickly after 4000 rpms. Take another look at the dyno chart and you should notice that peak torque occurs at about 4300 rpms. After peak torque, of course our package decreases (it's after peak). As for the A/F we are running RICH and SAFE (under 12.5:1 in the upper range). We could lean it out to 13.2-13.5:1 A/F ratio range and definitely make some more power and torque, but I would rather have a customer's car make slightly less power and be more reliable and safe. We are not even close to running out of fuel (probably could easily get another 100hp out of the engine with our current fuel setup). We shut it off at around 5700 rpms because we already made peak power and torque! This is a great benefit. You do not have to spin your motor up into the 6000+rpm range, which can reduce the longevity of a hydraulic roller style engine.

4)1 thing about all of our packages is that they are PACKED with parts!! We do not just include power parts and end there. While, we could reach our power goals, we would be shy of our reliability and longevity goals. This is why we include parts like Unitrax half shafts, Mopar heads (not stock heads), Fluidyne radiators, thermostats, flywheels, clutches, true roller timing chains, etc, etc... Again, we want to offer the most reliable package, and represent the best value to our customers.

I think this answers most of the questions and concerns that were posted already. I am also responding to a few dozen requests I have received over e-mail. Look forward to posting REVISED numbers this evening (we are hoping to squeeze some more ooomph out of this package tonight!!)

Stay tuned!!!
p.s. I will be posting all the parts included in the package this evening in the NEW products area. Pricing will follow shortly.

Thanks for your patience and support!
Regards,
Wayne (LTHL VPR)

 

[LTHL VPR]

Thank you for your patience. The complete list of parts/contents is now posted for viewing in the 'New Products' area.
Enjoy!
Regards,
Wayne (LTHL VPR)