why does the subject of vipers loosing control keep comming up?

Toby

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I post on my other sites but vipers are my focus right now and I hear about crashed cars of all types but it seems to be a big subject here. Is it all driver error? I guess the Viper is one of the only factory cars with this much HP that a lot of people go for but GEEZ.. I have driven many high hp cars including classics and new iron but have never seen such talk. I often can punch it and have the back end come around but in a controlled manner. Can you do this with a viper or do they just let go and not be controllable?

Help!
 

Newport Viper

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I lost it once. Spun it. Here is an interesting thought. I had a very big passanger when it happened 6'4" 250. Would a passanger have anything to do with upsetting the balance? I have never spun it when alone. I have been on the car much harder when I am alone. No spin.
 

onerareviper

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I guess it depends what your used to. Before the Viper, I owned a 1969 Corvette. After that a high HP Mustang. These cars were much more difficult to control than the Viper, and had a bit less HP as well. I think Dodge did an incredible job putting the V10 motor in a very capable car. On the other hand, 500 pounds of torque is 500 pounds of torque any way you slice it. I would assume that the majority of people that have problems with the car have never owned other big displacement motors. When I first drove the Viper, I laughed at all the magazines saying how much of a handful it is and how uncomfortable it was. I found the car very comfortable (for what it is), and easy to drive. Of course I was comparing it to the '69 Vette, race Mustang, and other muscle cars I have driven. Now discovering the LIMITS of the Viper as far as cornering is another story. I drove the car for 3 months so far, and don't think I pushed it past 85% in turns. It has soooo much grip you are afraid to keep pushing it because you can't believe it is still sticking. I'm sure this is why most drivers go to Viper Days/Events - to help discover the limits of there Viper's. Obtaining maximum braking also takes a lot of practice with the Viper. Pushing the Viper, or any car for that matter, to 100% should only be done at a track anyway. I do think discovering the limits of the Viper takes a lot more time, and a lot more practice than other makes. You don't just jump in the Viper and push it to its limits - except maybe a straight line. That's what I love about this car, though. You don't get bored after a week of driving.

BE CAREFUL OUT THERE!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Gerald

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Dodge was informed of this problem and we are waiting for them to "fix"
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it..

Gerald
 

Bonkers

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The car is a short wheelbase high torque creature. It’s designed for quick speeds and fast cornering and thus is usually too much for an inexperienced driver in corners and hard take offs on unlevel highway. It’s the exact same problem with jeep wranglers (yes I know they are two different things but hear me out). When you enter a corner the back tires are struggling to get ahead of the front. If you are not ready for it...bang. On unleveled roads (like those with crowns) the rear loses grip and heads straight for the ditch, the front stays put because of the high grip tires and ... instant blender ride.
 

AJ

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none. but i drove one irresponsibly for a day
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and i managed to spin it twice on purpose on a deserted parking lot
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so i can say that i've gained more "feel" for it than i would gain if i was just doing quick 2nd-3rd gear romps on the highway...

also, i've had 2 rwd cars with 335/30/18 rear tires (both making in excess of 500+ rwhp) so i am well accustomed to the traction and feel they offer. the only difference is that both cars had solid rear axle, but i figured that this doesnt matter much once you overpower them...

that and 8 years of auto-xing ...

besides if you think the viper is the only car that will bite you back faster than you can say "i am a led-footed id1ot"...
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alex
00 m5
few other cars


<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by AJ on 03-01-2002 at 01:09 PM</font>
 

SnakeBitten

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BAKNBLK95RT:
I know some people will not like me saying this, but the Viper really needs traction control. It would save a lot of people from getting into wrecks. Also when you go to the track you can always turn it off. But for around town driving etc... It would be nice to have.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would agree with you on the traction control thing if this was a vehicle made for the masses..Its not...Its aimed at seasoned drivers that understand that 490tq at low rpms need to be respected...I guess its inevitable that it will come as long as it has an off switch a la Vette...ABS is now offered so TC may not be far behind. ..I guarantee you that most of these crashes and spins are a result of people who bought the car for its looks and have never driven the car before.....Maybe Dodge should only sell the car to people that can produce a certificate from a respectable driving school or offer the car with a free week or two at Skip Barbour.....They would probably only resort to this if some putz decides he/she crashed the Viper because of manufacturer error and sues DC.....I like the fact that it takes a seasoned driver to get the most from the car...So many cars today do everything for you and take the driver out of driving....An example would be the Porsche's of recent years..Some Porschefiles complain that the 911 has lost that edge that rewarded driving skills....Thus the 911 GT3....
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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Moderators, is there any way we can get the words "traction control" put on the list? If so, then add "cup holders" "dead peddal" "cruise control" "automatic tranny" and "true convertible."

"ABS" is borderline.
 
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With the following as my background, owner of 4 Vipers, VCA member for over 5 years, over 10 Skip Barber programs (ranging from the 2 day driving school, 3 day racing school, Car Control, Lapping Days to N.CA VCA specific programs).

The only problem with the Viper is that Dodge sells Vipers to people who are not good (sports car)drivers.

my opinion
 

jimandela

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The torque is a monster.
And yes if not used to it you will go sideways.
in most cars you need to give it gas and let off the clutch
try it in a viper and your sideways..
you need to feather the gas and let out the clutch.
i have gone sideways twice early on.
now after 5,000 miles i feel much more comfortable with it.
but this is not a car to let friends drive or friends die
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Chuck 98 RT/10

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It’s the driver’s fault. Not cold tires or balance. You drive to the limits of the car. Unless you hit an oil patch at 70mph or somebody cut you off, it’s most likely driver error. I spun my RT/10 out in the rain, no acceleration, no speeding, just cruising along and the rear wheels hydroplaned. Even in that instance it was my fault because I knew I should have waited for my new tires to arrive. I got caught in the rain and I should’ve taken back roads or, of course waited for the new tires. Thankfully no damage was done, but a valuable first hand experience was learned.
 

AJ

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i think i can chime in. the problem is that the breakaway is very abrupt. i've had e few high hp cars and their rear section tires ranged from 245 to 335. the 245 section rear tire breaks away in a very controllable fashion- it gives you plenty of warning, it squeals and then eventually breaks away smoothly... you know a split second before you lose traction that you will... however, the ultimate grip is not as great as it is on a 335 tire. speaking of, you can push and push and push a 335 rear tire and it will stick, no squeal, no break away. and just when you think that your **** doesnt stink- it happens faster than you can countersteer and pedal back on the accellerator. that is why there are so many spun vipers. lots of torque + lots of grip that disappears instantly once you provoke the rear end enough...

alex
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few other cars
 

BlackACR

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Hey AJ, I have had 3 Vipers, but you seem to more about them then me. How many Vipers have you owned?????
 

Gavin

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Toby, the Viper, and in particular the GTS version, is a street legal racing car. There are many differences between the average street car and the Viper.
For example, the extremely high torque.
Now the guys that have incurred a "swap ends event" (spun the car) have demonstrated the perfect reason for signing up for a driving school. They either do not understand the effect of high torque when they stomp on the gas, or they do understand it and exceed the limit of the car anyway for some obscure reason - (generally showing off, which we are all very tempted to do)

At a driving school one learns very quickly about handling horsepower and torque - instructors talk in terms of "rolling on" the gas pedal and "rolling off" the gas pedal.
Stomp on the gas with a little steering input and the torque is sufficient to break the rear tires loose and around you go.
Similarly, if you're in a high speed turn with your foot in the gas and you suddenly lift you will feel the rear of the car get "loose" - thats the back of the car trying to become the front of the car.
So rolling on and rolling of the gas is very important.
Stomping on the gas, or lifting of the gas quickly de-stabilizes the car.
The guys that are the quickest at the track are those that have taught themselves to be smooth. One of the fastest guys I know of in a Viper, at the track, (I've ridden in the car with him), doesn't feel like he is going real quick because the car is soooooo smooth and well behaved, yet he holds the lap record in a Viper.

So the bottom line to answer you question is:
1. Street Legal Racing Car
2. Drivers exceeding the limits of their ability in this car and really need to get into a driving school.

Just so you understand, at track events you would be very surprised to see the most experienced guys sitting in the classroom listening to instructors. There is simply a ton to learn about going quick in any brand of car. In this regard the Viper is not special - try to go quick in this car and you need to know how. "How" doesn't come natural for too many of us. No matter how good any one of us gets, there is always the next thing to learn. Ask the fasted guy at the track why he is there - to have fun and to learn.

Lastly - your concern about the Viper "not being controllable"
My experience of the car, when driven appropriately (now that word covers a lot of ground), is very predictable and gives the driver a lot of feedback.
Now the exception to that, in my experience, is "cold tires" - try to go quick on cold tires and the torque will bite you - the car will be sideways before you can blink. Warm the tires up and the car simply sticks, in a straight line or in turns.
Hope this helps.
 

BigsViper

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What Gavin said.....

One of the most informative sessions in performance driving/racing school deals with "balance" (another term for what Gavin said). Once you begin to understand how the different inputs (steering, braking, acceleration) affect balance, you can begin to be smoother and go faster. Without someone who's been to the edge explaining this (at least for me), and then practicing for yourself on the edge of adhesion in a safe environment, It is very easy to lose control and spin or worse in any high performance car. TC and all the other robotic enhancements may add to saftey but reduces excitment.

If more people invested in a performance driving/racing school of some sort, there would be fewer incidents.
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Gerald...
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HogWhisperer

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gerald:
Dodge was informed of this problem and we are waiting for them to "fix"
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it..

Gerald

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL! That's right Gerald. Hope they hurry!
 
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Toby

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Thanks for the information. The Viper kinda sounds about the same as my modified 69 Camaro with 375 HP in the way is drives. If you play around too much...it will spin like a top or if you downshift or let off the gas too fast with too many RPM the rear of the car gets really light. I guess I summary...if you have never driven a car with lots of power...be very careful and turn the ego down a few clicks. Thanks!
 

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