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DAMN YANKEE
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Enthusiast
Great timing for me, thanks!
Jim Wilson
Enthusiast
IMHO, you should always use anti-seize compound on plugs.
40% reduction in torque spec? I don't think so.
40% reduction in torque spec? I don't think so.
OP
OP
DAMN YANKEE
Guest
This from Joeseph Dell, important enough to include here..
"Avoid platinum plugs on a SC application. They cause detonation. And you will blow your motor. Ngk4554 (r5671a-8) are awesome, inexpensive SC plugs"
"Avoid platinum plugs on a SC application. They cause detonation. And you will blow your motor. Ngk4554 (r5671a-8) are awesome, inexpensive SC plugs"
OP
OP
DAMN YANKEE
Guest
Definately on the torque reduction...
http://www.cdegroot.com/cgi-bin/mirror/pweb.jps.net/~snowbum/sparkplugs.htm
This is waht the above link says...
The use of antiseize is somewhat controversial, mostly I think this is due to SOME spark plug manufacturer's literature.
There are probably two reasons to NOT use anti-seize compounds:
(1) Some experienced mechanics feel that it is then easy to overtorque and pull threads.....my answer is that one should be using a torque wrench, AND lowering the official torque (which is usually for use withOUT antiseize compound).
(2) Since the use of popular antiseize compounds acts like a lubricant, the applied torque MUST be reduced...about a 1/3 reduction is roughly correct. SOME manufacturer's are concerned.......with HEAT conduction....probably feeling that the heat range of the spark plug is changed by the use of the compound. I have NOT seen this in real life situations. I have always used some sort of antiseize compound on my own spark plugs...and I have close to 530,000 miles on airheads. I've NEVER 'pulled' spark plug threads out of a cylinder head.
Antiseize compounds vary in characteristics, but I have found NONE that are NOT OK at the spark plugs. ONE thing you do NOT want to do is use OIL!!!...and that includes WD40.....these will carbonize, and cause thread damage over a long period of time.
NOTE: ONCE antiseize is used, it tends to work its way into the aluminum head metal....from that point on, it is best to use antiseize.
Using oil or WD40 will tend to result in hard carbon deposits in the threads, and thus tend to wear the threads, and tend to change the effective torque. Some spark plugs seem to have a bit less diameter on the threads, and that promotes carbon and wear. That, and other problems has been reported on Champion..and other... spark plugs. Bosch tolerances seem to be better, and Bosch plates the threads, which helps avoid use of antiseize, if you are so inclined. Spark plugs that, upon a wee bit of loosening, seem tight, should be oiled...a penetrating oil (or Kerosene!)...allowed to soak, even overnight if need be; and possibly carefully tightened a bit first, if that is not overtorquing, and then removed carefully....to avoid damaging the threads. I have had to clean up carbon'd threads MANY times...a good fresh sharp 14 mm tap works wonders, and I use a bit of White Lead on the tap. I then clean the threads, leave the threads clean and dry...THEN I antiseize...a dab...not much....on the spark plug threads....when installing the new spark plug; and torquing properly. You do NOT have to spread a lot of antiseize onto a plug threads...and you want to totally avoid getting any on the ceramic tip area anyway, where it might electrically short circuit the plug. A wee dab, on a fingertip, spread into the threads is just fine. Try to avoid using a tap if you can, as....depending on thread condition...a tap can not only reform threads in soft material like aluminum...but can cut and remove material.
***The exact amount of torque to use:
You CAN do this by hand, no torque wrench, once you have a good feel for it, but use of the torque wrench is HIGHLY recommended. I've seen various forces needed to properly seat the crush rings. I suspect crush rings vary somewhat. Since we all know that many of you will not use fresh crush rings, the values I am giving here are generally safe values, with a drop of antiseize spread onto the threads:
3/4 reach, 14 mm, about 12 ftlbs. This is the stock top spark plug size.
1/2 reach about 9 ftlbs; this is the commonly used bottom spark plug size on dual-plug conversions;....which is USUALLY just enough to seat the washer and a tad. I'd prefer less on the 1/2 reach, say about 7, but this may well not be enough to ensure a positive seating. In fact, it may barely be enough on a already used crush washer. You can try. Be careful. JUST snug is right. You don't want the plug too loose either...if it loosens and rattles out, that pulls/wears threads.
NOTE: with no antiseize 'ever' used on your heads, you can torque to spec.
http://www.cdegroot.com/cgi-bin/mirror/pweb.jps.net/~snowbum/sparkplugs.htm
This is waht the above link says...
The use of antiseize is somewhat controversial, mostly I think this is due to SOME spark plug manufacturer's literature.
There are probably two reasons to NOT use anti-seize compounds:
(1) Some experienced mechanics feel that it is then easy to overtorque and pull threads.....my answer is that one should be using a torque wrench, AND lowering the official torque (which is usually for use withOUT antiseize compound).
(2) Since the use of popular antiseize compounds acts like a lubricant, the applied torque MUST be reduced...about a 1/3 reduction is roughly correct. SOME manufacturer's are concerned.......with HEAT conduction....probably feeling that the heat range of the spark plug is changed by the use of the compound. I have NOT seen this in real life situations. I have always used some sort of antiseize compound on my own spark plugs...and I have close to 530,000 miles on airheads. I've NEVER 'pulled' spark plug threads out of a cylinder head.
Antiseize compounds vary in characteristics, but I have found NONE that are NOT OK at the spark plugs. ONE thing you do NOT want to do is use OIL!!!...and that includes WD40.....these will carbonize, and cause thread damage over a long period of time.
NOTE: ONCE antiseize is used, it tends to work its way into the aluminum head metal....from that point on, it is best to use antiseize.
Using oil or WD40 will tend to result in hard carbon deposits in the threads, and thus tend to wear the threads, and tend to change the effective torque. Some spark plugs seem to have a bit less diameter on the threads, and that promotes carbon and wear. That, and other problems has been reported on Champion..and other... spark plugs. Bosch tolerances seem to be better, and Bosch plates the threads, which helps avoid use of antiseize, if you are so inclined. Spark plugs that, upon a wee bit of loosening, seem tight, should be oiled...a penetrating oil (or Kerosene!)...allowed to soak, even overnight if need be; and possibly carefully tightened a bit first, if that is not overtorquing, and then removed carefully....to avoid damaging the threads. I have had to clean up carbon'd threads MANY times...a good fresh sharp 14 mm tap works wonders, and I use a bit of White Lead on the tap. I then clean the threads, leave the threads clean and dry...THEN I antiseize...a dab...not much....on the spark plug threads....when installing the new spark plug; and torquing properly. You do NOT have to spread a lot of antiseize onto a plug threads...and you want to totally avoid getting any on the ceramic tip area anyway, where it might electrically short circuit the plug. A wee dab, on a fingertip, spread into the threads is just fine. Try to avoid using a tap if you can, as....depending on thread condition...a tap can not only reform threads in soft material like aluminum...but can cut and remove material.
***The exact amount of torque to use:
You CAN do this by hand, no torque wrench, once you have a good feel for it, but use of the torque wrench is HIGHLY recommended. I've seen various forces needed to properly seat the crush rings. I suspect crush rings vary somewhat. Since we all know that many of you will not use fresh crush rings, the values I am giving here are generally safe values, with a drop of antiseize spread onto the threads:
3/4 reach, 14 mm, about 12 ftlbs. This is the stock top spark plug size.
1/2 reach about 9 ftlbs; this is the commonly used bottom spark plug size on dual-plug conversions;....which is USUALLY just enough to seat the washer and a tad. I'd prefer less on the 1/2 reach, say about 7, but this may well not be enough to ensure a positive seating. In fact, it may barely be enough on a already used crush washer. You can try. Be careful. JUST snug is right. You don't want the plug too loose either...if it loosens and rattles out, that pulls/wears threads.
NOTE: with no antiseize 'ever' used on your heads, you can torque to spec.
Purdue_Boiler_Viper
Enthusiast
At the end of the day, using anti-seize or used "crush rings" will have nothing to do with the torque needed to secure the plug for the thermal cycling and vibrational stress that the plug will experience. Use the recommended torque at all times.
JMHO
JMHO
Jim Wilson
Enthusiast
DY, I know your just trying to help people out and I applaud you for that. 
When two different metals are in contact with each other it leads to what is referred to as "galvanic corrosion". Add the combustion of the engine (i.e. carbon deposits) and you can easily "freeze" a plug in an aluminum head.
The anti-seize helps to prevent that.
When two different metals are in contact with each other it leads to what is referred to as "galvanic corrosion". Add the combustion of the engine (i.e. carbon deposits) and you can easily "freeze" a plug in an aluminum head.
The anti-seize helps to prevent that.
OP
OP
DAMN YANKEE
Guest
Jim, many thanks, I apprecaite your comment.
I use anti-sieze myself (very light, to top 2/3), the issue for me was the NOT the use of the anti-seize but rather lessening of the torque. Wth you comment and that of Purdue, now I'm not so sure about the lessening the torque part.
The issue is the idea that the anti-sieze acts as a lubricant and when torqued to the full 20# it may allow the threads to be driven too tightly home.
DOdge Ram :
Here are a couple of tips to help assure the success of changing spark plugs. The first is to remove spark plugs from aluminum cylinder heads only when the engine is cool. Since aluminum and steel expand and contract at different rates, removing spark plugs from an aluminum cylinder head while hot can actually cause thread and cylinder head damage. Before installing the spark plugs, make sure the threads are clean and in good condition. If in doubt, run a thread chaser through the plug opening in the cylinder head. Champion recommends that you do not use an anti-seize compound, since one has already been applied to the plugs at the factory. Next, install the spark plugs finger tight and, it using a taper seat spark plug, use a ratchet to rotate 1/16 of a turn. If using a gasket seat type spark plug, after installing finger tight, turn 1/4 to 5/8 of a turn. If this procedure is followed, spark plugs will not back out nor will they seize in the cylinder head.
http://dodgeram.info/Engine-Gas/SparkPlugs/spkplghnbook.html#Gold
Champion Aviation recommends the use of the product:
Per Champion Aviation Service Manual: "Apply anti-seize compound sparingly to the firing end threads but never to the first thread to prevent the material from running into the electrodes."
Champion use in a BMW:
If overtorqued, you can damage the heads. BMW has used 16-18 foot pounds in most literature for its spark plugs. That is for NON-oiled, NON-antiseize compound on the threads. Once antiseize is used, you must CONTINUE to use it, as it works itself into the aluminum alloy of the head threads. Under NO circumstances must you use such a high torque with antiseize. My personal specification for the standard 3/4 inch length 14 mm spark plug installed in an aluminum BMW head, with a faint amount of antiseize compound, is approximately 13 footpounds.
I'll call the factory (Champion, NGK) today and see what they say.
I use anti-sieze myself (very light, to top 2/3), the issue for me was the NOT the use of the anti-seize but rather lessening of the torque. Wth you comment and that of Purdue, now I'm not so sure about the lessening the torque part.
The issue is the idea that the anti-sieze acts as a lubricant and when torqued to the full 20# it may allow the threads to be driven too tightly home.
DOdge Ram :
Here are a couple of tips to help assure the success of changing spark plugs. The first is to remove spark plugs from aluminum cylinder heads only when the engine is cool. Since aluminum and steel expand and contract at different rates, removing spark plugs from an aluminum cylinder head while hot can actually cause thread and cylinder head damage. Before installing the spark plugs, make sure the threads are clean and in good condition. If in doubt, run a thread chaser through the plug opening in the cylinder head. Champion recommends that you do not use an anti-seize compound, since one has already been applied to the plugs at the factory. Next, install the spark plugs finger tight and, it using a taper seat spark plug, use a ratchet to rotate 1/16 of a turn. If using a gasket seat type spark plug, after installing finger tight, turn 1/4 to 5/8 of a turn. If this procedure is followed, spark plugs will not back out nor will they seize in the cylinder head.
http://dodgeram.info/Engine-Gas/SparkPlugs/spkplghnbook.html#Gold
Champion Aviation recommends the use of the product:
Per Champion Aviation Service Manual: "Apply anti-seize compound sparingly to the firing end threads but never to the first thread to prevent the material from running into the electrodes."
Champion use in a BMW:
If overtorqued, you can damage the heads. BMW has used 16-18 foot pounds in most literature for its spark plugs. That is for NON-oiled, NON-antiseize compound on the threads. Once antiseize is used, you must CONTINUE to use it, as it works itself into the aluminum alloy of the head threads. Under NO circumstances must you use such a high torque with antiseize. My personal specification for the standard 3/4 inch length 14 mm spark plug installed in an aluminum BMW head, with a faint amount of antiseize compound, is approximately 13 footpounds.
I'll call the factory (Champion, NGK) today and see what they say.
OP
OP
DAMN YANKEE
Guest
Just to finish this thread...
Champion factory says:
1. Their plug has plating technology that should not require anti-sieze
2. If you use anti-sieze, use very little and on top threads only
3. If using anti-sieze standard torque should be used (bingo, Jim)
4. Use copper high temp anit-sieze only
5. Most platnum tips are welded on (including theirs)
6. Best not to use platnum in s/c engines as they can break off under stress.
Champion recommends RC12LYC as the standard replacement plug (bingo, John and Tator, and just about everybody else).
Champion factory says:
1. Their plug has plating technology that should not require anti-sieze
2. If you use anti-sieze, use very little and on top threads only
3. If using anti-sieze standard torque should be used (bingo, Jim)
4. Use copper high temp anit-sieze only
5. Most platnum tips are welded on (including theirs)
6. Best not to use platnum in s/c engines as they can break off under stress.
Champion recommends RC12LYC as the standard replacement plug (bingo, John and Tator, and just about everybody else).
KenH
Enthusiast
I find the comment about using copper anti-sieze only from Champion interesting as I have seen other postings that say NOT to use copper anti-sieze for some reason. I have been using nickle based anti-seize, but don't know if it makes a real difference or not.
Purdue_Boiler_Viper
Enthusiast
Hey, where's the Love for the Boilers?
Btw, DY, where are you in NE? I'm going to be in NH next week.
Btw, DY, where are you in NE? I'm going to be in NH next week.
OP
OP
DAMN YANKEE
Guest
Good point, well done Purdue, you nailed it.
Lived in Franconia NH for years. Had my first child up there, only birth in the county THAT YEAR and she took the population over 100. Me, my wife, my baby and a Remington Rolling block all in the middle of 45,000 acres. Good times!
Now in CT, but not for long, soon ME.
Lived in Franconia NH for years. Had my first child up there, only birth in the county THAT YEAR and she took the population over 100. Me, my wife, my baby and a Remington Rolling block all in the middle of 45,000 acres. Good times!
Now in CT, but not for long, soon ME.
