'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???'s

[MoparMan]

\'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

My '00 GTS was built 10/11/99 and seems to have the oil consumption problem associated with early 2000's - I've been monitoring the oil usage closely for the last 500 miles or so and the level that the dipstick shows is down at least 1/3 of the length of the "safe" zone stamped on the dipstick. I always check the level with the car parked in the same spot and I always wait at least 24 hours after parking the car to check the level. Given the amount of oil in the system (10 qts, right?) the amount of drop in the level seems like a lot of oil to use to me. I need to make an appointment for the car soon (don't really want the dealer messing with my car, but I guess I'm stuck now that I've confirmed to myself the extent of the problem) and I have some questions about the cylinder sleeve problem and the possible Arrow rebuild:

1) How is the sleeve problem diagnosed? Do they run a compression and leakdown test to determine if the rings have seated properly?

2) Other than oil consumption are there any other symptoms of this problem? My GTS seems to collect alot of small dark carbon like spots on the rear above the exhaust and on top of the bumper.

3) If they do the Arrow Racing rebuild will I get the exact engine back (the numbers matching engine) or another engine?

4) I don't want my car sitting at the dealership for 10 weeks or so, will the dealer truck the car back to my house?

5) Is there a way to track the progress of the rebuild while the engine is at Arrow?

6) Is the whole process really worth it or should I just live with the oil consumption? The car has just over 15,300 miles on it (I've owned it since it had 13,700 miles) so obviously the previous owner just ignored this problem.

Any advice you guys could provide me would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Don Hiltz]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

I'm certainly not any expert on oil consumption, but I have extrapolated from your question that your car will be at the "ADD" level in 1500 miles.............correct? If that's the case, the dealer/Daimler Chrysler could make a compelling argument that it's within normal limits.

Years ago, I had a Ramcharger which used a quart of oil every 800 miles and the dealer told me that it had to be less than 500 miles/quart before remedial action would be takes. I do realize that the "ADD" level on your dipstick probably represents 2 quarts low so that should be factored in too.

Regarding the Arrow rebuild, I do have first hand experience there. Yes, you will receive the same engine back. My Viper tech maintained contact with Todd at Arrow and kept me apprised of the progress. Parenthetically, it took 5 weeks from engine removal to replacement. I had a wrecker (with a tilting flatbed) haul mine back to my garage and return it when the job was completed.

I've not had any problems with any untoward oil consumption since the rebuild.

Good luck......

Don

 

[SoCal Rebell]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

1) How is the sleeve problem diagnosed? Do they run a compression and leakdown test to determine if the rings have seated properly?

2) Other than oil consumption are there any other symptoms of this problem? My GTS seems to collect alot of small dark carbon like spots on the rear above the exhaust and on top of the bumper.

3) If they do the Arrow Racing rebuild will I get the exact engine back (the numbers matching engine) or another engine?

4) I don't want my car sitting at the dealership for 10 weeks or so, will the dealer truck the car back to my house?

5) Is there a way to track the progress of the rebuild while the engine is at Arrow?

6) Is the whole process really worth it or should I just live with the oil consumption? The car has just over 15,300 miles on it (I've owned it since it had 13,700 miles) so obviously the previous owner just ignored this problem.

Any advice you guys could provide me would be greatly appreciated.

1) They'll either do an oil consumption test or just say OK your car falls within the correct dates for this problem and just do it. Go to the Viper tech we discussed earlier, I think it was on Flamingo.

2) None with my '00 but they did find 3 bad valves.

3) Same engine.

4) They did mine.

5) No

6) Do it, the engine will come back like new, I'm sure down the line it will cause problems to something.

If you want to email me at [email protected]

RON

 

[Steve-Indy]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

Have to agree with above...would see your Dodge dealer NOW and get the ball rolling. It should work out fine.

 

[MoparMan]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

Over the time I've owned the car (a little less than 1600 miles) I've added almost 5 quarts of Mobil 1 to the car so I guess it's close to the limit anyway. I've never had a vehicle use this much oil so I consider it to be a problem.

I've got family coming in town next week so I'll try to get the car to the dealer the week after that.

Is the cylinder sleeve issue one that the Viper techs are aware of or will I have to specifically point them in that direction?

 

[SoCal Rebell]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

Make them aware that you are aware of what the problem is, what year it affects and that Dodge is aware of this problem. If you have to demand an answer by the DM (District Manager). I don't think there was a TSB issued on this problem.

 

[newredrt10]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

My rt is being done now. I had two dealers side step the probelm but found one that is taking care of the problem. It seems DC has a list of numbers for the motors that have the problem. These motors were made from sept. to nov. of 99 and have the power metal liners (sleeves). Keep in mind that not all motors made in this time were made with these liners. You should try to get it done soon for the three year limit is closing on this repair. It looks like the five week repair time is ture because mine should be back before the new year.

 

[MoparMan]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

Did your car have any symptoms other than oil consumption? I've noticed a lot of black crap on the back of my car and occasionally when accelerating hard there is a faint smell of burning oil. There is none of the usual tell-tale bluish smoke however.

 

[newredrt10]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

MoparMan
That is just what my car was doing. The dealer I bought it from said that is how they run. After my first Viper days I learned differently. So I started looking into it and found that my motor was one made with the powered liners. It is not listed as a normal recall or problem, don't know why. I took this info to my dealer and they still would not do anything. I then made a few calls and found one dealer that took care of it after verifing the numbers and problem. Its really enjoyable to find a dealer that respects a Viper owner.

 

[MoparMan]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

MoparMan
That is just what my car was doing. The dealer I bought it from said that is how they run. After my first Viper days I learned differently. So I started looking into it and found that my motor was one made with the powered liners. It is not listed as a normal recall or problem, don't know why. I took this info to my dealer and they still would not do anything. I then made a few calls and found one dealer that took care of it after verifing the numbers and problem. Its really enjoyable to find a dealer that respects a Viper owner.

Yeah, I've owned Mopars all my life (from 440s to 2.2 turbos to 360s and now the V-10) and I've never owned a car that uses oil like this. I've noticed that if you're just cruising (for example @ 80 on the highway in 6th) it doesn't seem to use much to any oil at all, but if you're getting on it accelerating hard the car uses oil and there are times when you can smell it with the windows down. I hate the thought of letting a dealer mess with my car but I also hate the thought of something being wrong with the car after all the money it cost me.

 

[85 of 200]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

How did ou find out your specific car was affected?

 

[JWALK35]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

My race car ,pictured in avatar, is a 2000 that had 7500 miles on it when I bought it and turned it into a race car.I don't know if it had the liner issue but I was adding a quart at every viper days event.I was told by more than one person that the car likes to be a quart low. I never run any of my cars a quart low but that's what i was told. It seemed to go from the full line down to the low line and stayed there.Didn't see it below the low line.After that season I had the motor rebuilt at arrow. Arrow dynoed the motor before (467 hp) and after(517). All oem components. Very happy with motor but expensive rebuild. Good luck

 

[SoCal Rebell]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

How did ou find out your specific car was affected?

2000 model year only, check the driver's door plate, if build date is on or before 11/99 you car is affected.

 

[85 of 200]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

one more question, My 3 years is up but I have the extended warranty through dodge, 50000/7 year 0 deductable, is it still covered, or do you know, thanks

 

[99 R/T 10]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

How did ou find out your specific car was affected?

2000 model year only, check the driver's door plate, if build date is on or before 11/99 you car is affected.

So, are you saying ALL 99's have the problem?

 

[MoparMan]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

So, are you saying ALL 99's have the problem?

My understanding is that only 2000's built before 11/99 have the sleeves that can cause the problem.

 

[newredrt10]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

The 11/99 build date for the car may not have a problem motor. It is the build date on the motor block and an other number on the left frount of the block that tells which motor you have. Get under the car and look at the numbers on the motor. On the right side there are dates and letters painted. Also on the right frount there is a casting number and a block serial number. The serial number is stamped in the block. Then on the frount left of the block is a number. The number is stamped into a milled tab facing frount. With these numbers a dealer can tell you if the motor can be fixed under warrenty. If the dates are 9/99 to 11/99 you may have a motor with the problem liners. It is the number on the left frount that they really need. For I was told there are two runs of motors made at this time and only one run was effected. Also rember they will test the motor to be sure there is no other problem.If you get these numbers and your dealer can not help you, call Rick Maxwell at Woodhouse (402-426-4127). He might be able to help you.

 

[tommygun]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

hey swat, yes your contract with dmc does cover the repairs and there sould be no issues as long as you take it to a reputable dealer that has some respect for these vehicles. not all dealers are interested in taking on the liability of yanking a motor out of a viper. best bet is to locate a popular dealer through your local vca chapter and contact them. in response to moparman's question of directing the dealer to the problem, the more solid info you can give them the better, sometimes viper owners have more, better information than we do as dealers. the condition you are experiencing is very hard to verify and usually all we dealers have to do is contact arrow engines under basic factory warranty or in the case of a service contract we contact our "csc" hotline and they will generally take care of the rest, including arranging all transportation of the engine to and from arrow, make sure you provide the factory exhaust manifolds as they are sent with the motor. also, when you receive your car back it will have a new oil cooler and lines as nothing gets un-bolted from the engine, including drive belts, compressor, generator etc.
if you have any questions feel free to call from 7:30am chicago time and 5:00pm monday through friday 847-657-0100. i am happy to help as much as i can from my end with regard to direction or information. i know you are not in the area but the program is the same at any dodge dealer. if you find a reputable dealer with experience in vipers you should have no troubles and no worries.

 

[85 of 200]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

Thanks for the help and advice, the biuld date for the car was 4/00 but Im going to have to take it somewhere to check the motor.

 

[sbkim]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

My 2002 GTS is also having similar oil consumption issues. I just noticed that I had used over a quart in less than 1000 miles. It's been mostly city driving, often hard accerleration. I didn't think after 2000 were affected by this? I would appreciate any feedback

 

[MoparMan]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

sbkim - the issue specifically referred to in this thread is related to the first 200 or so Vipers built for the 2000 model year. They were all build before November '99 or so.

Your oil consumption problem could still be related to the rings so check compression and leakdown.

 

[Y2K5SRT]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

Not sure how MoparMan ended up (but am curious), however there is no way that your 2002 or any other year was affected by the same "problem" as those early 00's. Indeed, many of those early '00's are running just fine today with no oil consumption problems and no rebuilds. My '00 was burning a full quart every 250 miles or so. No need to change the oil - it was getting all ten quarts replaced every 3,000 miles by consumption!

The issue with those cars was not a repeatable defect, but an actual design change that failed to perform as planned: Rather than the standard steel cylinder sleeve, PVO (now SRT) tried a much harder compound that was designed to last 1,000,000 miles. It was a powdered metal that was compressed with other alloys at ridiculous pressures - something to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds per square inch. The result was a cylinder sleeve so strong that it would outlast a conventional steel sleeve indefinitely. Great idea with one inherent flaw: The sleeves were so incredibly hard that the conventional piston rings wouldn't seat well in many cases. As a result, there was constant blow-by and excessive oil burning.

After seeing these "real world" results with this new sleeve, the factory quickly discontinued using it. While it performed well on the factory test mules, those cars may well have gone through a different break-in procedure that allowed the rings to seat more fully. Thus why many of those '00's are still running strong and may continue to do so for the next 1,000,000 miles. For the rest of those early '00's, the Arrow rebuild always involved replacing those sleeves with more conventional steel sleeves.

As you can see, this was unique to the early builds of the 2000 model year, never to be repeated again - so far. You might also note that several innovations that appeared that same year continue to this day. Can anyone say "cream puff?"

 

[sbkim]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

Moparman - compression/leakdown is first on my list. Thank you!

Y2k5SRT - as always, you are a walking Viper almanac/manual/lexicon etc. Thanks for the info.

 

[MoparMan]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

Y2k5SRT - I had the Arrow rebuild done at the end of '03. I took the car in mid-December and got it back at the beginning of February. After a careful break-in the car is alot stronger than it was before the rebuild but it does seem to run alot richer. Anyway, the rebuild was well worth it, especially since it was covered under my extended warranty.

 

[EXECMALIBU]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

MY 2001 WAS ALSO USING EXCESSIVE OIL WHEN DRIVEN HARD AND WAS ALWAYS RUNNING VERY HOT..

ACCORDING TO TODD AT ARROW MY 2001 HAD THE SAME LINERS(SINTERED METAL)..

THE REBUILD TOOK OVER 4 MONTHS WAITNG FOR THE REPLACEMENT LINERS THAT D/C NO LONGER HAD IN STOCK..

 

[sbkim]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

Excemalibu - this is not good. I would have thought 2001 and 2002 are free and clear from this!??!?! Do you have Todd's #? Thanks

 

[Y2K5SRT]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

2001's did NOT have the same "experimental" liners as the early '00 builds. Not one. The car in question (EXEC's) had much bigger problems than liners. And they have since been cured by the crusher at the salvage yard.

 

[MoparMan]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

This is my understanding as well. Only the first 200 or so cars built for the 2000 model year had this issue.

As far as EXECMALIBU goes, he apparently had everything wrong with his Viper, from overheating to excessive oil consumption to operator issues.

 

[EXECMALIBU]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

THE PHONE NUMBER FOR VIPER WARRANTY ENGINE CENTER AKA "AERO RACING" IS (800) 551-8477 CONTACT TODD..HE IS VERY HELPFUL..

I AM FAR FROM AN EXPERT ON WHAT IS USED IN THE VIPER BLOCKS BUT THE INFORMATION THAT I RECEIVED DIRECTLY FROM TODD AT AREO IS THAT MY 2001 ENGINE HAD DEFECTIVE "SINTERED METAL LINERS"!

I HAD NEVER HEARD THAT TERM PRIOR TO MY DISCUSSIONS WITH TODD..

I ALSO HAVE A FAX FROM AERO REFERENCEING THAT THE ENGINE IS "STUCK AT UNIBORING (THE ORIGINAL BLOCK MAUFACTURER) WAITING FOR REPLACEMENT LINERS"..

THE FAX IS DATED 6/1/04 MY MOTOR WAS PULLED AND SENT TO ARROW AROUND 4/1/04..THE ENGINE WAS FINALLY RETURNED AROUND 6/24/04...

MAYBE D/C USED A DEFECTIVE 2000 ENGINE IN MY 2001 AND THAT IS ANOTHER EXPANATION OF WHY THEY ELECTED TO DESTROY THE CAR AS OPPOSED TO FIXING IT??

 

[sbkim]

Re: \'00 oil use and Arrow rebuild ???\'s

execmalibu - thanks again for the info! I hope they don't send my car to the crusher

UPDATE- Just spoke with Todd (extremely nice guy at Arrow). He tells me near the AC compressor, near the lower bolt where it mounts to the car, is an id that should read something like TN038. IF the remaining characters are "AB" then you do NOT have the 2000 issue. I will check mine tonight. As previously discussed, Todd commented that excessive oil use during hard riving is not something uncommon