The code allows peopel to modify it if they want, do you think alot of Gen 4's are still under warrenty, not to mention just the improvement NA, and throttle feel.
11.1@ 127 Pretty strong!
- Thread starter pumpgas
- Start date
The code allows peopel to modify it if they want, do you think alot of Gen 4's are still under warrenty, not to mention just the improvement NA, and throttle feel.
HOLLYWOOD1
Enthusiast
I thought that this throttle feel was supposed to be fixed with this new gen V as no one but you has mentioned that there is a "throttle feel" problem on the new Gen? So you have driven one and the throttle is still delayed like the Gen 4?
It is obvious that all the engineers want the Gen V owners to do is maybe add headers and that's about it. Just drive it and enjoy it. You can add all the Hp you want and it still will have a tough time keeping up with a GTR to 60 mph.
Maybe you should by a Gtr then? An SRT doesn't own my car I do and I should be able to mod it like you can virtually any other car in this class
HOLLYWOOD1
Enthusiast
Then answer this why are they keeping this such a big secret in keeping things locked? Maybe just maybe they don't want guys modding these cars or it is too complicated for anyone? I don't see any of your reasons for this, so what are your reasons? Can you think of any?
I may buy a GTR as it gets 31 miles to the gallon, has a better price and it can pretty much hold it own against anything.
I may buy a GTR as it gets 31 miles to the gallon, has a better price and it can pretty much hold it own against anything.
FLL-B/W-GTS
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Except a Porsche 911 Turbo S....
HOLLYWOOD1
Enthusiast
Great point, I don't see a lot of Porsche guys modding even though they could. These 3 cars Viper, GTR and Porsche are all incredible in their own ways.
FLL-B/W-GTS
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All three represent the very best of what their countries have available in high performance cars....
TrackAire
Enthusiast
You can't give away something that isn't yours. In another thread, it was brought up that the programming is not a Dodge product, but designed and owned by a UK company. Maybe Dodge is negotiating some sort of release, but this has nothing to do with warranty, too much power, or any other of that B.S., otherwise our parent company (Fiat) would not allow the codes to be released for the Ferrari, Maserati or Fiat lines, would they?
Right now I would just be happy to have a normal throttle response on my Gen 4. Why can't I send back my Mopar PCM for a reflash to allow "normal" throttle response for the track? I've given up asking and given up looking at future SRT products and have discussed this issue with friends looking for a fun car to play and mod.
God, can you imagine an built Gen 4 motor with a more radical VCT system???....yikes
Reasons such as this is why people like me do not buy another product that does not have customer support for common sense things. Spent 300 miles yesterday in a Ford GT....favorite thing about that car is the crazy throttle response.....yes, it was tuned, larger blower and minimum 825 rwhp......it was a good day
Cheers,
George
chorps
Enthusiast
There is a lot of proprietary information that the controller contains that might not be owned by Chrysler. 
http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/collaboration-innovation-key-to-viper's-venom
Motorola might also have some ownership of the engine controller IP.
https://events.pwc.com/uk/eventsmss/v2-1/eventsol2.nsf/lkp_ImageById/UKWE-8MTEZE/$file/4.3%20N%20Cheeseman.pdf
Page 3 of pdf:
http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/collaboration-innovation-key-to-viper's-venom
Motorola might also have some ownership of the engine controller IP.
https://events.pwc.com/uk/eventsmss/v2-1/eventsol2.nsf/lkp_ImageById/UKWE-8MTEZE/$file/4.3%20N%20Cheeseman.pdf
Page 3 of pdf:
chorps
Enthusiast
Quoted and emphasized for truthiness.
HOLLYWOOD1
Enthusiast
Chorps, great findings but I would think that if I as a company subbed out the work to an independent company to do the work for me (Chrysler/SRT) then my lawyers should have had some sort of clause stating the work performed for me would be my property since I paid for it. Not to get into the legal can of worms here but when employees work for companies on company computers there are employment contracts that state all property developed while working for the organization is and remains property of the employer or company. Just my .02 and maybe this work done for SRT was somehow missed by the legal ones. Pure speculation but it looks like something seriously got missed somewhere along the line. Its really too bad that the Gen 4 and maybe 5's cant really get into the software \/programming of these controllers. Really, all the Gen 4 & 5 guys should not be held ransom by this kind of politics. absolutely crazy.
chorps
Enthusiast
That's not always true about the work though, because if the end product is a proprietary system that you want to leverage, you'd have to pay even more to gain the rights to redistribution. This is why one oftens see big tech companies like Google and Apple just buying the smaller companies outright to vacuum up the technologies, patents and people...but to do something like that solely for the Viper platform would be darn near impossible.
Also, in many of those contracts, regardless of who owns the final end product, there are lots of ***** traps in there like not divulging trade secrets etc., that can be revealed in the controller as well...as much as SRT Engineers would want to open things up, it could be the Chrysler legal department which kiboshes any 'risky' behaviour as a CYA move. One of the words that kept coming back to me was about 'warranties' whenever I brought up opening the controllers, and that traditionally the controllers were reverse engineered by third parties when it came to opening up the controllers anyhow.
I'm not sure how true that last statement is, but given that the Viper is such a low volume and unique platform, all sorts of deals were made just to get things done cost effectively (read cheaply and quickly), and it could a rat's nest of legal mazes to navigate before we see an unlocked controller from Chrysler. Also, the timing might have been the worst to get this done, as 2007 was when Chrysler was bought out by Cerberus, and before that Chrysler was totally starved by Daimler when it came to R&D. So it could have been a 'do anything you can' deal just to go forward or else nothing gets done at all, and now that development contract has come back to bite them (and us) in the asp.
Also, in many of those contracts, regardless of who owns the final end product, there are lots of ***** traps in there like not divulging trade secrets etc., that can be revealed in the controller as well...as much as SRT Engineers would want to open things up, it could be the Chrysler legal department which kiboshes any 'risky' behaviour as a CYA move. One of the words that kept coming back to me was about 'warranties' whenever I brought up opening the controllers, and that traditionally the controllers were reverse engineered by third parties when it came to opening up the controllers anyhow.
I'm not sure how true that last statement is, but given that the Viper is such a low volume and unique platform, all sorts of deals were made just to get things done cost effectively (read cheaply and quickly), and it could a rat's nest of legal mazes to navigate before we see an unlocked controller from Chrysler. Also, the timing might have been the worst to get this done, as 2007 was when Chrysler was bought out by Cerberus, and before that Chrysler was totally starved by Daimler when it came to R&D. So it could have been a 'do anything you can' deal just to go forward or else nothing gets done at all, and now that development contract has come back to bite them (and us) in the asp.
madninjaskillz
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Although 0-60 times improved with the new Viper, it's never been the focal point. Where do the GTR and Porch have better track times than the Viper? Exactly. Track focused. It always amazes me how people bring up 0-60 times vs. AWD platforms (stock vs stock).
I test drove a new GTR before I bought my car and it was to say the least, it was uninspiring and boring to drive, felt like you were driving a passanger car. And I'm an Import guy through and through, plus the fact to make a GTR fast you have to do alot of work not only to the engine and turbos but also the trans. I already have one 1000+Whp AWD car to worry about the drivetrain breaking I didn't want another haha
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ViperSmith
Enthusiast
Thats what I hear everyone say.
It is uninspiring. A technical feat, but, just god awful boring.
HOLLYWOOD1
Enthusiast
Your comment is interesting in that to make a GTR fast you really need to add mods. I have never driver one but would love to especially since I thought that they were ridiculously fast and for 2014 will be quite a bit quicker around the track. I still am looking for feedback from you guys as I am seriously contemplating adding one to my stable of toys. another interesting comment is the fragility of these cars as I had really never heard any complaints about the newer car drive trains. I thought that the **** over engineered their cars knowing full well that guys look at adding performance goodies. I am thinking that all I would add to a new GTR is an exhaust system. in 2014 they also finally lightened the car.
FikseGTS
Enthusiast
I've had 3 GT-R's, 2009, 2012 and 2013...
my stock 2013 GT-R ran 0-60 MPH in 2.7 and 10.8 @ 125 MPH in the 1/4 mile.... after a tune and mid-pipe (20 minutes to install) it ran 10.5 @ 130 MPH..... some more bolt-ons and you can go 10 flat @ 136 MPH.... they are very fast and durable... all very simple mods....
there will always be a place for big motor, manual cars, but as you can clearly see, many are going with a different direction DCT transmissions and smaller more efficient engines.... Ferrari, McLaren, Lamborghini, Porsche, Audi, Nissan, etc...
yes, a Viper driven by a professional on a road course with great tires can beat them, but 99% of us can't do that anyways, and 99% of the time these competitors will perform better since their technology allows them to do so and make it easier for a normal driver...
my stock 2013 GT-R ran 0-60 MPH in 2.7 and 10.8 @ 125 MPH in the 1/4 mile.... after a tune and mid-pipe (20 minutes to install) it ran 10.5 @ 130 MPH..... some more bolt-ons and you can go 10 flat @ 136 MPH.... they are very fast and durable... all very simple mods....
there will always be a place for big motor, manual cars, but as you can clearly see, many are going with a different direction DCT transmissions and smaller more efficient engines.... Ferrari, McLaren, Lamborghini, Porsche, Audi, Nissan, etc...
yes, a Viper driven by a professional on a road course with great tires can beat them, but 99% of us can't do that anyways, and 99% of the time these competitors will perform better since their technology allows them to do so and make it easier for a normal driver...
kratedisease
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I think the people posting that are complaining about the 1/4 times on the gen5 viper are so "1990's" because the day of a car being judged by numbers alone are so far gone....When I was in my 20's and 30's back in the 1980's and 1990's every car magazine posted 1/4 times and 0-60 times on the cover as if those numbers were the critera to judge a car.Those days are clearly far GONE!!. I have still have the 1997 year Motor trend issues with the TOP Shootout comparisons where they pitted all the top performers aganist each other and the way the cars were judged was solely 1/4 mile , 0-60-, latteral G's, and stopping. Those criteria are so "yesterday". If you read car magazines now, you really will never see that type of comparison again or ever more because the new standard of the world is how fast any car goes around a track. Top Gear (BBC TV show) might have started the trend possibly but every magazine has now also gone to track testing vs "numbers" testing sports cars. It is no longer about what a car can do in the 1/4 mile in a straight line.... it is about how fast will it go around a track, and I agree that this is TODAYS standard for judging performace cars. So who cares what a gen5 Viper does in the 1/4 mile on a drag strip?? ... what is important is what it does around a track. If you want the best 1/4 mile performer then buy a sleeper station wagon with skinny front tires and the largest cast iron block blower force fed non catalytic engine you can stuff inside and have all the fun you want. It takes ENGINEERING to develope a track performer. To make a 1/4 mile winner you just need raw horsepower and you can use a parachute instead of brakes.....
FikseGTS
Enthusiast
nah, every magazine I see has 0-60 and 1/4 mile data.... still very relevant.... today it's about all around performance, not just what some pro driver can do around a road course... Viper owners like to say it's all about the track because that's where the car excels...
SnakeBitten
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There are quite a few cars that have a better "all around performance" than the Viper. Porsche Turbo S, GTR, Mclaren MP4-12C, ZR1, Gallardo etc. They are all much "quicker" and some also much "faster" than the Viper in a straight line. As long as the Viper keeps its manual and RWD configuration (I hope the RWD never changes) it will continue to lag behind in straight line performance to the technologically advanced AWD/DCT and RWD/DCT crowd.
Seems like the newer breed of owners don't care if the Viper is faster than its rivals in the straights. As a long time non-owner Viperholic I just can't bring myself to be ok with it's midpack straight line performance. I'd much prefer it to be competitive in both straights and track but it doesn't seem realistic anymore in light of the competitions superior tech. I'm glad that its still a killer on tracks though. If it could only have one area to shine I'm glad it's the twisties.
Seems like the newer breed of owners don't care if the Viper is faster than its rivals in the straights. As a long time non-owner Viperholic I just can't bring myself to be ok with it's midpack straight line performance. I'd much prefer it to be competitive in both straights and track but it doesn't seem realistic anymore in light of the competitions superior tech. I'm glad that its still a killer on tracks though. If it could only have one area to shine I'm glad it's the twisties.
FikseGTS
Enthusiast
I agree, and it doesn't have to be AWD to do well off the line, my McLaren does 0-60 MPH in 2.8 seconds on the street..... DCT, LC, Mid-Engine, and good tires!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhhxptV2bZ8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhhxptV2bZ8
SnakeBitten
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Very sick. I saw another MP4 do 10.3 @ 13x stock on here. Might have been your car. I hope SRT benchmarks the MP4 for the next Viper. The MP4 might be a bit slower around Laguna but this is how you do twisties and straight line in a RWD package in this day and age. Lets hope for a more generous budget from Fiat in the future.
V10lover
Viper Owner
Until it is proven that a 8.0L or even a 7.5L V10 can't fit under the hood of a viper I won't believe anyone just because no one tried or put the REAL effort on doing it. It is possible and I will repeat myself several times. Many, many ways to do it and still have a very well balanced car.
Vipers are for me, that is why I have a 2010 ACR. Unfortunately, in the year of 2013, automatics and DCT are way faster than any standard transmission. I like faster cars so I would like them to offer the new viper with an optional 6-7spd auto or a DCT.
That's all.
V10lover
Viper Owner
There are many ways to bring down the extra higher heads by a few inches and they could make it work. One way would be a smaller block. The 8.4L making 640hp is great don't get me wrong but not much more competitive Vs the hi-tech exotics anymore. I would rather have 7.5L DOHC V10 making 725-800hp and spinning to 7000rpm than the actual engine.
They could design a new hood too or bring the stock one 1-2 inches. Also moving the tranny to the back aka corvette to make that 50/50 front/rear weight ratio or close to it.
It is very possible to do it!!!
V10lover
Viper Owner
Not simple, but very possible for A BETTER overall performer specially in straight line acceleration where 99.9% of people like or know how to race. Only way to compete with the exotics and other imports which are all DOHC today. If GM did that with the C4 in 1990 they could do it with the viper in 2013. If they they got back to pushrods is because they are IDIOTS.
It just needs this:
RESEARCH, DEVELOPMENT and EFFORT!
VENOM V
Enthusiast
This is such an old, worn out argument. Please give it a rest, snooze....
speedracervr4
Enthusiast
We already talked about the DOHC dream on page 4(two weeks ago) of this thread.
V10lover
Viper Owner
I did. But that is not the right way to do a burnout to begin with. Not on the water. Just watch NHRA or any professional type of drag racing and see if they do a burnout on the water. And yes, 3 seconds is all you need maybe a little more if you want. You don't need to roast the tires to dead either because is not going to do any better considering the track was prepped ok. Launching the car at 5500rpm does not mean bananas. Some cars can lunch better if you walk the clutch rather than just dump it depending on track prep, gear ratio, tire etc.. and etc.. It is not as simple as driving a GTR as the driver in the viper SHIFTS his own gears too.
I don't have the time slips as I threw them out since they were almost 2 years old. It went 10.96@127 with belanger headers (with cats) corsa exhaust, K&N replacement filter and 18 x 10s 6spokes with hoosiers drag radials in the rear everything else was stock. There is more in there probably a 10.7 or so as I will find out this year.
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V10lover
Viper Owner
DOHC is the reality. The dreamers are the ones thinking that pushrod engines got something left in them.... OHV is obsolete for sports cars today! Plain and simple and I don't want to hurt anybodies feelings(remember I own a viper too) but all you gotta do is to look out there. Gm and Chrysler are the only ones still making the mistake while ALL the other brands found the light.
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speedracervr4
Enthusiast
You should sell your Viper because it's obsolete....
