2005 SRT-10 Differences; Get a master list going...

[luc]

Daniel,

Using a knock sensor as a tuning tool on a modified engine can certainly be beneficial but I believe that on a stock engine, the work and money involved to retrofit one, far outweight the (possible) benefit and could even have some performance drawback due to the hysteresis of the sensor.

Not all engines are equal in regard to knock, obviously combustion chamber design, timing map,bore size,CR,Head material,all play a role and it's not because a Mitsubishi with an effective CR of 17 (8 static + 9 turbo/boost)or an LS1 need one that a bone stock viper engine require one.

Luc.00GTS

 

[Viper Specialty]

Daniel,

Using a knock sensor as a tuning tool on a modified engine can certainly be beneficial but I believe that on a stock engine, the work and money involved to retrofit one, far outweight the (possible) benefit and could even have some performance drawback due to the hysteresis of the sensor.

Not all engines are equal in regard to knock, obviously combustion chamber design, timing map,bore size,CR,Head material,all play a role and it's not because a Mitsubishi with an effective CR of 17 (8 static + 9 turbo/boost)or an LS1 need one that a bone stock viper engine require one.

Luc.00GTS

LUC- While I dont disagree with what you are saying, you are looking at this the wrong way. People who are going to keep their cars stock are never even going to look at this mod. As I said: "However, that is not the main reason I am doing it. It is geared towards those who plan on modding their engines, whether it be raised compression in an NA application, or a forced induction application." That said, I will say again, I still cant believe that Dodge didnt put one on the Viper engine to begin with, if for no other reason than a safety factor if you get bad gas.

 

[luc]

Daniel:

Don't misunderstand me, i think that it's great that you're willing to spend time money and energy to bring new products to viper owners.

My comment/point was more directed toward the non-mechanical savy Viper owners that will believe that if the 05 has a knock sensor, It must be a better car/engine.

Luc.00GTS

 

[Viper Specialty]

OK, Now I see where you are coming from. I agree with you on that point, and it is true that the Knock sensor in reality makes no difference, if you are not working with tuning, and have a reliable fuel source. It does not make the car better or worse in normal circumstances.

 

[Y2K5SRT]

Sorry for the delay, but here are some updated photos, locations, and I think even a part number (at least as it appears on the sensor). Okay, let's start with that. Here is a close up of the sensor, which is manufactured by NTK:

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How are these mounted? It appears that the mounting is part of the casting:

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And where they located? Here you go:

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Hope this is of some help, and Daniel - don't forget that charity auction for the Kansas City VCA!

 

[Dyno Dave]

The crank sensor is on the passenger side in the middle of the block like the early Vipers.

 

[Dyno Dave]

And the PCM has additional hardware to run the knock system.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Y2K5SRT- Thanks!!! Just as I thought, they changed the casting and incorperated the mounts into the cross-sectional casting "fins". Ironically, its the "best" case of a bad situation- Bad because the 03/04 casting does not contain the mounts, but good becuase they did it over the "fins", and it is an easy location to weld on an adapter. I think the best solution to the mounting problem will be an aluminum pedestal turned down to be shaped like the casting, with a "slot" down the middle so it can be slipped over the fin, and welded completely around. Once I see one in person I will work on a mounting system.

 

[womsterr]

I was told that the 05 internals are different. Did they change the rods away from those cracked sintered metal ones?

 

[Viper Specialty]

Dyno Dave- Possible to get a picture? I am betting they switched it due to the Torque Converter that was used for the Automatic Trans in the new Ram SRT.

I am aware they changed the PCM software, though it appears they that is all they changed. The PCM part number did not change, just its version number. Also, all pinouts remain the same, with the exception of the two addtional inputs for the knock sensors, though they are being input on currently unused pins in the previous PCM's. There are 5 PCM versions to date, 4 of which are from 03-04.

 

[Viper Specialty]

I was told that the 05 internals are different. Did they change the rods away from those cracked sintered metal ones?

This I have not heard. Who told you that...? Anyone able to add to this?

 

[Viper Specialty]

WOMSTERR- It appears you were right!

The Connecting rods have changed for 2005. A completely new part number, and a completely different price. It looks like they did indeed ditch the Cracked/Sintered steel rods, as they were very expensive to produce. The 03/04 rods are about 160.00 each, compared to the '05 rods being about $70.00 each.

PS- Ordered up some of the components today to try and make knock sensors an available option to 03/04 cars.

 

[womsterr]

I heard the crank is different too Daniel...

 

[Viper Specialty]

WOMSTERR- Thats a given, as they relocated the Crank Position Sensor back onto the side of the block in 05, due to the Automatic Trans in the SRT-10 Quad Cab. (Must have been too difficult to get the 03/04 flywheel sensor to work with the Torque Converter on the auto trans).

The crank in the 05 has to have the sensor grooves cut into it, instead of the flywheel- hence a different number. The Viper Cranks have always been forged steel (at least in Gen-2 and SRT), and remain forged in the 2005.

 

[KenricGTS]

Are the rods forged steel or cast? Hopfully forged.

 

[Viper Specialty]

in 2005, not sure- will know tomorrow, betteing they went back to Forged. In 03/04, they are Sintered Steel, with Cracked Caps- Stronger than forged steel, and lighter... Unfortunatly, also more expensive to make, hence why it was dropped in 05.

 

[Dyno Dave]

The con rods are a modification of the 5.7L Hemi rod which are lighter. That changes the crank balancing so the crank is lighter.

 

[womsterr]

WOMSTERR- Thats a given, as they relocated the Crank Position Sensor back onto the side of the block in 05, due to the Automatic Trans in the SRT-10 Quad Cab. (Must have been too difficult to get the 03/04 flywheel sensor to work with the Torque Converter on the auto trans).

The crank in the 05 has to have the sensor grooves cut into it, instead of the flywheel- hence a different number. The Viper Cranks have always been forged steel (at least in Gen-2 and SRT), and remain forged in the 2005.

Granted. I hear there are more changes than the ones to which you refer. Are you sure thats it?

 

[Y2K5SRT]

The con rods are a modification of the 5.7L Hemi rod which are lighter. That changes the crank balancing so the crank is lighter.

So if all of this is lighter, does that translate to less reciprocating mass and thus increased performance? I know I am VERY happy with my stock dyno numbers with less than 1,000 miles on the clock (464 RWHP & 504 RWTQ)...

 

[Viper Specialty]

WOMSTERR- Thats a given, as they relocated the Crank Position Sensor back onto the side of the block in 05, due to the Automatic Trans in the SRT-10 Quad Cab. (Must have been too difficult to get the 03/04 flywheel sensor to work with the Torque Converter on the auto trans).

The crank in the 05 has to have the sensor grooves cut into it, instead of the flywheel- hence a different number. The Viper Cranks have always been forged steel (at least in Gen-2 and SRT), and remain forged in the 2005.

Granted. I hear there are more changes than the ones to which you refer. Are you sure thats it?

WOMSTERR- As pointed out by Dyno Dave above, the new Connecting rods will also result in a new crank weight for balancing purposes. Is there something else you have heard? If so, post it, and we can explore.

 

[Viper Specialty]

The con rods are a modification of the 5.7L Hemi rod which are lighter. That changes the crank balancing so the crank is lighter.

So if all of this is lighter, does that translate to less reciprocating mass and thus increased performance? I know I am VERY happy with my stock dyno numbers with less than 1,000 miles on the clock (464 RWHP & 504 RWTQ)...

Theoretically, yes, that would make sense. But, at what cost? Surely something had to give in order to make the components lighter, or else it would have been done from the begining. I can understand it from a cost-saving perspective, as the Viper Conn rod is Low production, and the Hemi Rods are High production... but at what cost was all of this done...?

Just a thought...

I have more information on this, but I cannot post it until I get permission.

PS- there was an error in my posting on 11/24/04, and I will correct it as soon as I know what I should and should not mention...

Thanks,

 

[Brian E]

Another change for 05 is the low tire pressure sensors will reset themselves after a low tire condition is detected. The model years 03 and 04 have to be reset by the dealer.

 

[Viper Specialty]

BRIAN: I am fairly sure my 04 has reset itself before. Perhaps I will check...

 

[Brian E]

BRIAN: I am fairly sure my 04 has reset itself before. Perhaps I will check...

Daniel, I am dealing with this situation as we speak. I called and talked to Dennis(?) at Roanoke and he told me it was a change made in 05. He said you need to drive at a steady speed over 50 mph for a certain distance and the sensors will reset.
I had my front tires rebalanced and they rotated the tires on the rims to achieve a 8lb road force balance, now my LO Tire light is on. I need to go to the dealer to have it turned off. I have an early build 04, maybe they made a running change in 04, anybody know for sure?

 

[WANTED]

Re: 2005 SRT-10 Differences; Get a master list going...

my 03 reset itself if that helps answer this. i think dennis does not know what
he's talking about lol.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Um... who is Dave? lol

 

[Viper X]

On the issue of relocating the crank case breathers from the back to the front of the valve covers, vten555 has is right. My 04 "pukes" oil under hard acceleration. I am considering buying the 05 valve covers as a fix. Anyone else had this problem with their 03 / 04's? Anyone got a better fix? I already have an oil "puke can" but would like to get rid of it.

Will the front location now "puke oil" under hard braking like the Gen II's?

 

[Viper Specialty]

BRIAN: I am fairly sure my 04 has reset itself before. Perhaps I will check...

Daniel, I am dealing with this situation as we speak. I called and talked to Dennis(?) at Roanoke and he told me it was a change made in 05. He said you need to drive at a steady speed over 50 mph for a certain distance and the sensors will reset.
I had my front tires rebalanced and they rotated the tires on the rims to achieve a 8lb road force balance, now my LO Tire light is on. I need to go to the dealer to have it turned off. I have an early build 04, maybe they made a running change in 04, anybody know for sure?

I knew I wasnt losing my mind...


I lowered the pressure in a tire until the low tire light and chime came on, then refilled and drove the car. the low tire reset within a mile of driving the car. Tell Dennis at Roanoke to check his fact sheet again...

Your issue is a sensor is damaged/dead/etc, not a low pressure warning. Both will illuminate the Lo Tire light.

 

[kmg99]

Careful on adding the knock sensors:
1. They are prone to pulling spark out due to "false knock"
2. I had them on a GM product, added headers and had to detune the sensors due to the different dynamic of the engine with headers
3. Welding bosses on may not be the right answer and could yield false readings
4. No need unless you tow, run marginal fuel or increase CR or super/turbo charge
5. Many better areas to spend $750-1000.

Nine times out of ten my bet would be adding the sensors will reduce output due to computer pulling spark out due to perceived "knock".

On a truck yes, fairly stock Viper no way.

 

[Jay Herbert]

Besides the dirt (the '03 just wrapped up Viper Days Finals down in Oklahoma), the belts are different:

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Chris

The belt may be a random thing as the top belt is a Goodyear Gatorback belt (none better) and is what Mopar parts sells.