3.33's did not make my car faster...

[rcdice]

...from a standing start anyway.

Shorter gears are a never ending controversy on this board. I decided to bite the bullet and install 3.33's. I ran 0-60, 80, etc. pre-gears and post gears as tested with a Gtech. Net result is that my times didn't improve at all. More info:

I honestly believe the car feels (and is) stronger with the new gear set. Shorter gears mathematically put more torque to the ground. I felt 3.33's were a good compromise between stock 3.07 and say 3.55 or 3.73.

Traction has become more of an issue than it already was. I'm running OEM Pilots that are at least six years old. Yes, I know that's a weak link. With the new gear set, I routinely would feel the tires slipping all the way through first gear and again once shifted into second. OEM tires at OEM 29 PSI.

From a roll, I'm sure the car is faster. Although, they are still apt to break loose at say a 25 mph roll in 1st gear. With better tires, PS2's, it might be a totally different story. Personally, I'd like to stay with a road race like street tire, like PS2's vs. a drag radial.

If, with better tires, my times still haven't improved, I will feel like I made a mistake by switching. However, traction is currently almost non-existent up to 60 mph. New tires should fix that, we'll see.

 

[plumcrazy]

learn to drive it and try again. and just cause the Gtech shows the same times.....doesnt mean its gospel

 

[dave6666]

Yup, your #1 next mod should be fresh rubber. It made a night and day difference on my GTS.

 

[mike & juli]

We were told the 3.55 gears would give you more SOTP feel, not necessarily 'tested'....we opted not to get them. We simply street the car, so no need. Hopefully you will not feel this was a mistake to do given time. ~juli

 

[plumcrazy]

worst it will do is make 6th gear more usable

 

[mike & juli]

worst it will do is make 6th gear more usable

That was one consideration in getting it done~~juli
(Hope you get your car back this week, Phil~~any word from Kyle yet?)

 

[DrDJ]

New gears are mathematically and real world proven to not make your car any faster. You need more hp for that.

DrDJ

 

[rcdice]

Well, I don't consider myself a great driver, but I'd like to think I'm at least good. I tried launching from idle, 2k rpm, 2.5k and 3k. Rolling on the throttle, smashing the throttle, feathering the throttle. The rears just broke lose again and again. It really made me appreciate rear engine/rear mid engine cars like Porsche, Ford GT, Lambo, Ferrari with the weight over the rear wheels.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a Viper nut through and through, but traction IS an issue.

I really feel the car is faster with this gear, just not from a stand still, yet. Once you get traction, your shift points come up amazingly fast. Once you get traction, the car is gone! I need ps2's!!!!!!!

 

[plumcrazy]

the PS/2's do make a big difference especially if yours are older like mine were

 

[Viperless]

I put 3.45 gears in my old '97 GTS. I ran the car on the drag strip with the stock gears for a baseline. Swapped the diff. that night and went back to the same drag strip the next day. No difference in performance. NONE.

 

[handyman_321]

I don't know how much of a difference the 3.33's make. But I can tell you that your tires would spin if they were on a 74 corvair. I just put a new set of ps2's on my 99gts and they make all the difference in the world.

Get some and then try taking off...

 

[pauls]

Whatever your research, having a sixth gear that you can cruise with is worth the money. If you do the math more gear= more torque on tap. harnessed it will propel you faster!

 

[SidewinderGTS]

If you go to a track thats prepped properly and a full gas tank,you will get good numbers.
I can have mine to the floor off idle,when I hit 30mph tires brake loose.Went to a well prepped track,it felt like I had slicks.Tires held all threw first with a chirp into second.
If I had my G-Tech with me,0-60mph would be under 4 sec for sure.Wish I had your gears that day.Keep us posted.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

This chart shows that a car will only be quicker (in a quarter mile) if you can plant the tires in first gear. After that, torque at the wheels is about the same.

Chart courtesy of the Northeast Viper club (I think.)

 

[mike007]

Dude get some TIRES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[PhoenixGTS]

I think it works this way:

1) slippy tires + short gear = nil
2) sticky tires plus stock gear = "now we are talking"
3) sticky tires + short gear = "will absolutely decimate an identical car without either from a standstill to 75 mph or so"

Put some stickies on the rear and you will kick yourself black and blue for not doing it five years ago.

 

[ViperJohn]

Thanks for the feedback on the 3.33's so far. Please post an update once you get new tires. I was also curious how the drive-line lash is with the new ratio. I drove a Viper with 3.55's and felt the drive-line lash was bad. The car practically bucked when letting off/getting back on the throttle.

 

[PhoenixGTS]

I was also curious how the drive-line lash is with the new ratio. I drove a Viper with 3.55's and felt the drive-line lash was bad. The car practically bucked when letting off/getting back on the throttle.

Perhaps my 3.07 ring and pinion were beat, but I found exactly the opposite, primarily since I am at a higher rpm in any given situation which allows me to avoid PCM/throttle body base bucking. As far as real "alsh," that has to be all about set-up.

 

[grcforce327]

If you install new rubber,you will have to test BOTH GEARSETS again to be accurate!

 

[Knight Viper]

I drove a Viper with 3.55's and felt the drive-line lash was bad. The car practically bucked when letting off/getting back on the throttle.

John you need to drive my car next time, Very strong, very smooth!

I know you heard this a hundred times already but just in case they are not ordered yet, you need some new tires if for nothing less then keeping your car from ending up a statistic.
I run a Roe SC (10psi) 3:55 gears and ps2's and can hammer my car through all the gears without loss of traction. I have tried both gears after adding the blower and wouldn't go back to the stock gear unless I was doing more road course events. the only thing I needed to relearn was to shift faster 5500rpm comes a lot sooner with this setup.
get your new tires so you can enjoy your latest mod, I'm sure you will when you're "hookin up"

 

[jay01m]

When you change gears, your essentially robbing Peter to pay Paul. While you may end up with a better 60-ft time, and reaction time with new tires because of that low end torque, your going to lose that torque on the high end of your RPM range. Your 1/4 mile times won't change because your HP hasn't changed, and if anything, it might have dropped a tad because you may be forced to make an extra shift with those new gears, which takes time. What will really bake your noodle is that your trap speed might actually go up a little despite all that.

 

[pauls]

Trap speed goes up because you’re using your torque band more efficiently. With a 3.55 you’re in the strong torque band in the traps in 4th gear. With a 3.07 your way past it just trying to get through traps without shifting out of 3rd.

 

[DrDJ]

I think it works this way:

1) slippy tires + short gear = nil
2) sticky tires plus stock gear = "now we are talking"
3) sticky tires + short gear = "will absolutely decimate an identical car without either from a standstill to 75 mph or so"

Put some stickies on the rear and you will kick yourself black and blue for not doing it five years ago.

So with that logic, I'll put some 4.55s and Khumos on my E430 and blow the doors off of my Viper.

Here's what happens with shorter gears. When you shift into a higher gear, you get left behind by the car in the lower gear.

http://forums.viperclub.org/showthread.php?p=2414843#post2414843

DrDJ

 

[dave6666]

So with that logic, I'll put some 4.55s and Khumos on my E430 and blow the doors off of my Viper.

DrDJ

Yup, the data is in.

Headline will read "Merc blows doors off of Viper"

When the liberal left sees that the headline will read "Viper production to end due to global issues."

See what you've started?

 

[rcdice]

DrDJ, No, he states an otherwise "identical car". So, yes, put sticky tires and a shorter gear in your E430 and it will blow the doors off another E430 is the argument. Apples to apples.

The gear debate seems to always bring about very strong opinions on both side of the fence. However, I find it fascinating that given the history of the Viper, many think that the 3.07 ratio is gods gift to the automotive world. Or at least the Viper automotive world. This car has gone from 400-450-460-500-510 and now 600 HP. From 17"-18"-19" rear wheels. Yet, the gear is always 3.07 and in some peoples minds, always the perfect gear.

Just a few observations and my $.02

 

[PhoenixGTS]

DrDJ, No, he states an otherwise "identical car". So, yes, put sticky tires and a shorter gear in your E430 and it will blow the doors off another E430 is the argument. Apples to apples.

Thanks for the back-up Dice.

I think the feedback on this isue is very tainted by SO many people have forced induction. Sure our cars come stock with a LOT of torque compared to others, but honestly, if folks think performance auto engineers around the world drive Vipers and say "wow that ridiculously tall first gear is awesome! We need to do that on our next model" they are nuts. It is a compromise. Fuel economy, safety, tire technology - heck people went on and on about how brilliant Chevy was for putting gearing in the new Z06 so tall that it can run to 60 without shifting thus resulting in nice numbers for magazine test. But assuming traction is not an issue (check out the gearing on AWD cars for example), if shorter gearing was not quicker from a stand-still drag racers would run a 1:1 ratio and save some trouble. Road racing/boost = different story. In my personal car, with the crazy ambient temps we have in the summer, I have a hard time spinning my Kumho V700s. NO WAY you are going to tell me my car is not hugely quicker to 60 than with stock gears.

 

[viper spray]

Get some decent rubber before you crash hard...............

 

[DrDJ]

Sorry guys, but not one single person who has taken their viper and switched the gears have made any difference whatsoever in the quarter mile at the track and published it. NOT ONE. NEVER. EVER. Yet the myth of making a car faster with no changes in engine power or weight simply by changing the rear gear ratio still goes on and on and on like a bad horror movie. Whenever someone makes the swap and can't understand why their 1/4 mile times are no different, the myth believers chime in with stuff like "get new rubber" or "don't believe your Gtech" or "now you can blow away a stock viper." It's something to do with "SOP" (seat of pants) or "HMAFIMS" (how my a$$ feels in my seat.)

Here's what really happens (posted before: )

Car A has the 3.55 gears, Car B is running the stock 3.07 gears. Removing traction from the equation and with all other thing being equal, Car A will reach the shifting point to 2nd gear before Car B. Car A will have a slight lead. Car B stays in 1st gear longer, however and spends more time in the "ideal power band." Any advantage that Car A had is erased and then some until Car B shifts into second gear, at which time Car A will start to pull on Car B (initially from behind.) Car A will gain the lead back before shifting into 3rd gear, where the process starts all over again. I am talking about very small distances between the two cars. Where the two cars cross the finish line relative to one another depends on the actual length of the race, altitude, temperature, etc. There is just as much chance that Car B will cross the line before Car A as the other way around.

For the above reason, altering gear ratios at the drag strip could save a fraction of a second, but it could be either slightly taller gearing or shorter gearing that is better for the quarter mile at that particular track / day / temp / humidity / grip / etc. A CVT (Continuosly Variable Transmission) would theoretically improve the quarter mile time .

 

[dave6666]

Sorry guys, but not one single person who has taken their viper and switched the gears have made any difference whatsoever in the quarter mile at the track and published it. NOT ONE. NEVER. EVER. Yet the myth of making a car faster with no changes in engine power or weight simply by changing the rear gear ratio still goes on and on and on like a bad horror movie. Whenever someone makes the swap and can't understand why their 1/4 mile times are no different, the myth believers chime in with stuff like "get new rubber" or "don't believe your Gtech" or "now you can blow away a stock viper." It's something to do with "SOP" (seat of pants) or "HMAFIMS" (how my a$$ feels in my seat.)

Here's what really happens (posted before: )

Car A has the 3.55 gears, Car B is running the stock 3.07 gears. Removing traction from the equation and with all other thing being equal, Car A will reach the shifting point to 2nd gear before Car B. Car A will have a slight lead. Car B stays in 1st gear longer, however and spends more time in the "ideal power band." Any advantage that Car A had is erased and then some until Car B shifts into second gear, at which time Car A will start to pull on Car B (initially from behind.) Car A will gain the lead back before shifting into 3rd gear, where the process starts all over again. I am talking about very small distances between the two cars. Where the two cars cross the finish line relative to one another depends on the actual length of the race, altitude, temperature, etc. There is just as much chance that Car B will cross the line before Car A as the other way around.

For the above reason, altering gear ratios at the drag strip could save a fraction of a second, but it could be either slightly taller gearing or shorter gearing that is better for the quarter mile at that particular track / day / temp / humidity / grip / etc. A CVT (Continuosly Variable Transmission) would theoretically improve the quarter mile time .

Great stuff DrDJ. Seems like we're right back to doing what feels good to you. But the math does help. I'll keep my 3.07's just cause I like to do 60 in first. A little math, and it feels good to drive that way.

 

[George Murray]

In 11 years of driving Vipers, I've had 3.07s and 3.54s. SOTP feel is far better with the 3.54s. I drag race maybe once a year. Road course stuff several times each year. I've never felt the 3.54s cost me any time on the track. I feel the 3.54s give me more options on the track during "high traffic" situations. On the street, I much prefer the 3.54s. Especially at highway speeds.