700 HP Naturally Aspirated Gen III Engine

[Nader]

I was browsing the classifieds and came across this add.

2003 & up V-10 Viper Street/Race Motor - ViperClub Classifieds

All I can say is wow. 700hp. With this kind of power from a NA engine I am surprised no one has bought it or at least talked about it on this forum. Looks like a good build.

The question I have is can you get the tune right with the stock computer? At 700hp I am sure it will be quite temperamental.

I wonder what the power band looks like.

Tom

 

[1BADGTS]

You can get the correct tune on the computer(Rowe, Perfect Power) BUT you have to go further than than mainly get the buld sheet from Fat Albert (EXACTLY whats it the motor-is the bottom end done as thats where the big moneys at) Fat Albers does ALOT of big dollar exotic NA Viper motors =GTSR engines costing in the 60 grand range.

 

[plumcrazy]

id think an AEM is gonna be mandatory

 

[Shandon]

Im getting an NA build done later this year with same or more power and the plan is for about 600rwhp from it. Yes it can be done and yes it can be tuned. Higher compression etc etc etc etc etc etc. PM me for more details. On the mentioned engine though i would get a build spec for sure!! Im an NA guy I love the keep it simple concept.

 

[Chrissss]

Im getting an NA build done later this year with same or more power and the plan is for about 600rwhp from it. Yes it can be done and yes it can be tuned. Higher compression etc etc etc etc etc etc. PM me for more details. On the mentioned engine though i would get a build spec for sure!! Im an NA guy I love the keep it simple concept.

On that exact engine I messaged him for the build specs, no response.

 

[Spdrcrj25]

Isn't 700bhp easily attainable on gen IV engines with headers, intake, and tune? I thought I read a thread on here that someone had done it with mopar parts.

 

[1BADGTS]

Isn't 700bhp easily attainable on gen IV engines with headers, intake, and tune? I thought I read a thread on here that someone had done it with mopar parts.

Yes it is as bone stock they are really around 625 hp.

 

[Shandon]

Isn't 700bhp easily attainable on gen IV engines with headers, intake, and tune? I thought I read a thread on here that someone had done it with mopar parts.

I think most people add up the mods and think they are getting number but a couple dyno results I have seen are still rather shy of 700crank. Mods that you do on top of each other never added up to equal the advertised power (example 75hp headers and 25hp pcm and 10hp air intake) Does not equate to 110hp on car but it does on paper. It makes you feel good and gives you bragging rights that arn't supported. I have seen headers and the new mopar pcm get in the 660 crank range. Just cann't do a whole lot to a GenIV for now. No matter how you cut it though a 600hp na motor is a big motor

 

[C-Note]

I think most people add up the mods and think they are getting number but a couple dyno results I have seen are still rather shy of 700crank. Mods that you do on top of each other never added up to equal the advertised power (example 75hp headers and 25hp pcm and 10hp air intake) Does not equate to 110hp on car but it does on paper. It makes you feel good and gives you bragging rights that arn't supported. I have seen headers and the new mopar pcm get in the 660 crank range. Just cann't do a whole lot to a GenIV for now. No matter how you cut it though a 600hp na motor is a big motor

I have seen a bone stock down to the air filters 2000 mile 08 put 535hp to the tire and that was on a Mustang dyno that tends to read a little lower than a Dynojet. There are a few people on here that are getting in the 605RWHP range with the headers, PCM and filters. So you are getting about 70 rwhp out of those mods, or if you account for the drive train loss about 80.
Not bad by any measure.

Im not sure where you are getting these crank numbers? I feel the only way to really compare is at the tire.

 

[Shandon]

Im not sure where you are getting these crank numbers? I feel the only way to really compare is at the tire.

I agree, sorry I listed Crank since this thread started on the 700hp engine I figured I would not confuse people. I have yet to see a dyno of a genIV surpase 600rwhp. The highest I have seen is 576rwhp. If you have seen a GenIV get 600rwhp and not be an inflated dyno number I am greatly impressed.

 

[2001 GTS]

My built 488ci motor put down 590rwhp with out adding any timing yet. So 650+rwhp on a bigger displacement motor shouldn't be that hard.

 

[Cop Magnet]

I agree, sorry I listed Crank since this thread started on the 700hp engine I figured I would not confuse people. I have yet to see a dyno of a genIV surpase 600rwhp. The highest I have seen is 576rwhp. If you have seen a GenIV get 600rwhp and not be an inflated dyno number I am greatly impressed.

perhaps you missed this thread:
http://forums.viperclub.org/srt10-s...acr-dyno-w-headers-exhaust-mopar-ecu-k-n.html

 

[1BADGTS]

I agree, sorry I listed Crank since this thread started on the 700hp engine I figured I would not confuse people. I have yet to see a dyno of a genIV surpase 600rwhp. The highest I have seen is 576rwhp. If you have seen a GenIV get 600rwhp and not be an inflated dyno number I am greatly impressed.

BIG DIFFERENCE between a worked Gen 2 ,Gen 3 and a STOCK Gen 4 .My old worked Gen 2 on Street tires trapped 132 my stock Gen 4 trapped almost 130 in only 4 passes correct weather would have trapped 131 easily.The difference to make a Gen 2-3 as fast as a stock Gen 4 NA your going to DROP 25 GRAND IN the motor not to mention a large CAM .The cam will effect streetability (emissions,vacume issues ect )BIG TIME so much so alot of people will not want to drive it .As far as resale =good luck and no warranty at all. Also i NEVER went by dyno numbers plain and simple(they can be massaged easily ) if a 600 hp Viper (flywheel ) is not trapping at least 129 plus on street tires in any weather on a sea level track something is wrong

 

[1BADGTS]

BIG DIFFERENCE between a worked Gen 2 ,Gen 3 and a STOCK Gen 4 .My old worked Gen 2 on Street tires trapped 132 my stock Gen 4 trapped almost 130 in only 4 passes correct weather would have trapped 131 easily.The difference to make a Gen 2-3 as fast as a stock Gen 4 NA your going to DROP 25 GRAND IN the motor not to mention a large CAM .The cam will effect streetability (emissions,vacume issues ect )BIG TIME so much so alot of people will not want to drive it .As far as resale =good luck and no warranty at all. Also i NEVER went by dyno numbers plain and simple(they can be massaged easily ) if a 600 hp Viper (flywheel ) is not trapping at least 129 plus on street tires in any weather on a sea level track something is wrong

Ps Ex Vca pres Joe Houss bought my Gen 2 (we are from the same hometown )one day i went to his house and flip flopped between the two cars the technology progression(cam in cam )in the Gen 4 is amazing.

 

[Shandon]

perhaps you missed this thread:
http://forums.viperclub.org/srt10-s...acr-dyno-w-headers-exhaust-mopar-ecu-k-n.html

Yes I did miss that thread. That's impressive wow I am happily corrected. Thanks for the info!

 

[Chrissss]

Received a message back from Fat Albert on the 700hp Viper engine. Build specs and dyno as follows:

Motor complete - All parts are new
My Cost of Building Motor $40,626.10
TOTAL ASKING PRICE WITH EXCHANGE $18,000.00
(Customer Pays Shipping & Crating)
Motor Built by Mach Development for me. You can check out his
Website if you want to at Home Mach builds motors for dragsters, funny cars, street cars.
COST TO BUILD RACE/STREET ENGINE - LONG BLOCK
TOTAL COST OF PARTS & LABOR
SEAL RINGS - J&E $ 188.80
RODS - MANLEY 800.00
PUSHRODS 210.00
10 ROD BEARINGS 82.30
BUILD MAIN CAP TIE BARS 220.00
ALIGN HONE MAINS 295.00
BORE & HONE W/TORQUE PLATE 575.00
DRILL OIL HOLES IN MAIN SADDLES 85.00
BUILD OIL RESTRICTORS 240.00
RESIZE RODS 260.00
PIN FIT RODS 120.00
PIN FIT PISTONS - J&E 120.00
MACHINE PISTONS 340.00
COAT PISTONS/RODS/MAIN BEARINGS 550.00
SCALLOP OIL HOLES IN CRANK 250.00
POLISH CRANKSHAFT 90.00
CRANKSHAFT 3,200.00
ATI RACE CRANK DAMPER 725.00
CRANK - GRIND & NITRITE 985.00
BALANCE ASSEMBLY 450.00
REPAIR HEAVY METAL IN CRANK 250.00
CAMSHAFT- SPECIAL CUT - .583 LIFT 700.00
DEGREE CAMSHAFT 120.00
FILE FIT RINGS 160.00
ADJUST CAM END PLAY 75.00
CORRECT WINDAGE TRAY 180.00
BUILD OIL PAN SYSTEM 240.00
GASKETS 280.00
LIFTERS - NEW - RESIZE TO FIT 900.00
MAIN BEARING ORANGE HEMI - SPECIAL CUT 1,200.00
PRESSURE TEST BLOCK 425.00
HEADS POLISHED & PORTED 8,460.00
BLOCK 6,200.00
INTAKE W/INJECTORS & THROTTLE BODIES - 68 4,200.00
RACE OIL PAN AND OIL SYSTEM 2,800.00
WEBER ALUMINUM FLY WHEEL (BALANCE & CERTIFIED) 600.00
CENTERFORCE PRESSURE PLATE & CLUTCH (BALANCED) 550.00
LABOR TO BUILD MOTOR 3,500.00
TOTAL COST TO BUILD LONG BLOCK $40,626.10


THE COMPANY “COMP CAM” OUT OF CALIFORNIA MADE THE CAM.
HYDRAULIC COMP CAMSHAFT SPECIFICATIONS (SPECIAL CUT FOR VIPERS):
INTAKE: DURATION - 289 DEGREES LIFT - 540
EXHAUST: DURATION - 300 DEGREES LIFT - 583
BEST CAM FOR ROAD COURSING AND STREET

The following is what was done to the heads:
POLISHED & PORTED $2,495.00
INSTALL VALVE GUIDES 225.00
ANGLE CUT 380.00
RADIUS VALVE JOB 750.00
VALVE SPRINGS 347.00
RETAINERS 210.00
LOCATORS 88.00
VALUE LOCKS 45.00
NITRIDE ALL SPRINGS & VALVES 275.00
VALVE JOB 340.00
NEW VALVES 635.00
TNT ROLLER ROCKERS - 1.70 1,695.00
VALVE COVERS 600.00
PRESSURE TEST & FLOW BENCH HEADS 375.00
TOTAL COST OF HEADS $8,460.00

This dyno sheet listed below is for a 1996 to 2002 Viper. It has a 583 hydr lift Comp Cam that gives it 800 hp and the 2003 & up motor has a 540 hydr lift Comp Cam that gives it 700 hp.

DYNO SHEET - ENGINE VIPER WITH HYD COMP CAM

RPM TORQUE CTORQ BHP CBHP BSFC FUEL
3798 738.4 816.7 534.0 590.6 1.322 638.1
3900 743.9 822.8 552.4 611.0 1.308 653.0
3999 747.2 826.4* 569.0 629.3 1.280 658.1
4098 743.7 822.5* 580.3 641.8 1.244 652.3
4200 741.3 819.9 592.8 655.6 1.183 634.0
4300 737.4 815.6 603.7 667.7 1.151 628.3
4400 733.1 810.8 614.1 679.2 1.113 618.1
4500 728.1 805.3 623.8 689.9 1.070 603.5
4600 719.9 796.2 630.5 697.3 1.077 613.9
4700 712.3 787.8 637.4 705.0 1.081 622.9
4800 705.4 780.1 644.7 713.0 1.087 633.4
4900 699.0 773.1 652.2 721.3 1.049 618.3
5000 690.7 763.9 657.6 727.3 1.073 637.9
5100 681.3 753.5 661.6 731.7 1.068 638.8
5200 674.3 745.8 667.6 738.4 1.082 653.0
5300 663.7 734.1 669.8 740.8* 1.068 646.5
5400 648.3 717.0 666.6 737.3 1.071 645.3
5500 633.9 701.1 663.8 734.2 1.067 640.5
5600 614.2 679.3 654.8 724.2 1.086 642.6
5700 589.9 652.4 640.2 708.1 1.097 634.6
5800 574.9 635.8 634.9 702.2 1.139 653.4
AVG 691.5 764.8 626.3 692.7 1.129 636.5

 

[Viper X]

DC can tune the Gen III computer for 700 hp NA - no AEM necessary.

They have tuned at least one Gen II that I know of for over 1000 hp with a Paxton and OE computer, which is daily driven.

The owner drives it to the drags, puts the slicks on and runs 9's; swaps tires and drives it home.

Call Dan at DC for more info.

Dan

 

[Tim]

looks like a good deal, why is he selling so cheap? any warranty?

 

[1BADGTS]

Received a message back from Fat Albert on the 700hp Viper engine. Build specs and dyno as follows:

Motor complete - All parts are new
My Cost of Building Motor $40,626.10
TOTAL ASKING PRICE WITH EXCHANGE $18,000.00
(Customer Pays Shipping & Crating)
Motor Built by Mach Development for me. You can check out his
Website if you want to at Home Mach builds motors for dragsters, funny cars, street cars.
COST TO BUILD RACE/STREET ENGINE - LONG BLOCK
TOTAL COST OF PARTS & LABOR
SEAL RINGS - J&E $ 188.80
RODS - MANLEY 800.00
PUSHRODS 210.00
10 ROD BEARINGS 82.30
BUILD MAIN CAP TIE BARS 220.00
ALIGN HONE MAINS 295.00
BORE & HONE W/TORQUE PLATE 575.00
DRILL OIL HOLES IN MAIN SADDLES 85.00
BUILD OIL RESTRICTORS 240.00
RESIZE RODS 260.00
PIN FIT RODS 120.00
PIN FIT PISTONS - J&E 120.00
MACHINE PISTONS 340.00
COAT PISTONS/RODS/MAIN BEARINGS 550.00
SCALLOP OIL HOLES IN CRANK 250.00
POLISH CRANKSHAFT 90.00
CRANKSHAFT 3,200.00
ATI RACE CRANK DAMPER 725.00
CRANK - GRIND & NITRITE 985.00
BALANCE ASSEMBLY 450.00
REPAIR HEAVY METAL IN CRANK 250.00
CAMSHAFT- SPECIAL CUT - .583 LIFT 700.00
DEGREE CAMSHAFT 120.00
FILE FIT RINGS 160.00
ADJUST CAM END PLAY 75.00
CORRECT WINDAGE TRAY 180.00
BUILD OIL PAN SYSTEM 240.00
GASKETS 280.00
LIFTERS - NEW - RESIZE TO FIT 900.00
MAIN BEARING ORANGE HEMI - SPECIAL CUT 1,200.00
PRESSURE TEST BLOCK 425.00
HEADS POLISHED & PORTED 8,460.00
BLOCK 6,200.00
INTAKE W/INJECTORS & THROTTLE BODIES - 68 4,200.00
RACE OIL PAN AND OIL SYSTEM 2,800.00
WEBER ALUMINUM FLY WHEEL (BALANCE & CERTIFIED) 600.00
CENTERFORCE PRESSURE PLATE & CLUTCH (BALANCED) 550.00
LABOR TO BUILD MOTOR 3,500.00
TOTAL COST TO BUILD LONG BLOCK $40,626.10


THE COMPANY “COMP CAM” OUT OF CALIFORNIA MADE THE CAM.
HYDRAULIC COMP CAMSHAFT SPECIFICATIONS (SPECIAL CUT FOR VIPERS):
INTAKE: DURATION - 289 DEGREES LIFT - 540
EXHAUST: DURATION - 300 DEGREES LIFT - 583
BEST CAM FOR ROAD COURSING AND STREET

The following is what was done to the heads:
POLISHED & PORTED $2,495.00
INSTALL VALVE GUIDES 225.00
ANGLE CUT 380.00
RADIUS VALVE JOB 750.00
VALVE SPRINGS 347.00
RETAINERS 210.00
LOCATORS 88.00
VALUE LOCKS 45.00
NITRIDE ALL SPRINGS & VALVES 275.00
VALVE JOB 340.00
NEW VALVES 635.00
TNT ROLLER ROCKERS - 1.70 1,695.00
VALVE COVERS 600.00
PRESSURE TEST & FLOW BENCH HEADS 375.00
TOTAL COST OF HEADS $8,460.00

This dyno sheet listed below is for a 1996 to 2002 Viper. It has a 583 hydr lift Comp Cam that gives it 800 hp and the 2003 & up motor has a 540 hydr lift Comp Cam that gives it 700 hp.

DYNO SHEET - ENGINE VIPER WITH HYD COMP CAM

RPM TORQUE CTORQ BHP CBHP BSFC FUEL
3798 738.4 816.7 534.0 590.6 1.322 638.1
3900 743.9 822.8 552.4 611.0 1.308 653.0
3999 747.2 826.4* 569.0 629.3 1.280 658.1
4098 743.7 822.5* 580.3 641.8 1.244 652.3
4200 741.3 819.9 592.8 655.6 1.183 634.0
4300 737.4 815.6 603.7 667.7 1.151 628.3
4400 733.1 810.8 614.1 679.2 1.113 618.1
4500 728.1 805.3 623.8 689.9 1.070 603.5
4600 719.9 796.2 630.5 697.3 1.077 613.9
4700 712.3 787.8 637.4 705.0 1.081 622.9
4800 705.4 780.1 644.7 713.0 1.087 633.4
4900 699.0 773.1 652.2 721.3 1.049 618.3
5000 690.7 763.9 657.6 727.3 1.073 637.9
5100 681.3 753.5 661.6 731.7 1.068 638.8
5200 674.3 745.8 667.6 738.4 1.082 653.0
5300 663.7 734.1 669.8 740.8* 1.068 646.5
5400 648.3 717.0 666.6 737.3 1.071 645.3
5500 633.9 701.1 663.8 734.2 1.067 640.5
5600 614.2 679.3 654.8 724.2 1.086 642.6
5700 589.9 652.4 640.2 708.1 1.097 634.6
5800 574.9 635.8 634.9 702.2 1.139 653.4
AVG 691.5 764.8 626.3 692.7 1.129 636.5

Nice parts list -what Manifold is on it .I take it that Albert put his dry sump on it.Are the heads stock or the Mopar sytreet strip castings .

 

[bushido]

BIG DIFFERENCE between a worked Gen 2 ,Gen 3 and a STOCK Gen 4 .My old worked Gen 2 on Street tires trapped 132 my stock Gen 4 trapped almost 130 in only 4 passes correct weather would have trapped 131 easily.The difference to make a Gen 2-3 as fast as a stock Gen 4 NA your going to DROP 25 GRAND IN the motor not to mention a large CAM .The cam will effect streetability (emissions,vacume issues ect )BIG TIME so much so alot of people will not want to drive it .As far as resale =good luck and no warranty at all. Also i NEVER went by dyno numbers plain and simple(they can be massaged easily ) if a 600 hp Viper (flywheel ) is not trapping at least 129 plus on street tires in any weather on a sea level track something is wrong

Sounds like your GTS wasnt tuned right. My 97 GTS with JM stage 3 ported heads milled(10.57to1 compression),plus cam. Idles and runs better than when it was bonestock with the 708 cam. No bucking surging whatsoever. Thats with the stock ECU, stock fuel system and stock injectors. Heres a video and dynograph ..

http://www.viperforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3267

618rwhp 610torque ( DP dyno) on 91 pump gas..

 

[bushido]

DC can tune the Gen III computer for 700 hp NA - no AEM necessary.

They have tuned at least one Gen II that I know of for over 1000 hp with a Paxton and OE computer, which is daily driven.

The owner drives it to the drags, puts the slicks on and runs 9's; swaps tires and drives it home.

Call Dan at DC for more info.

Dan

I agree, DC Performance did a fantastic job on my NA GTS..

 

[1BADGTS]

Sounds like your GTS wasnt tuned right. My 97 GTS with JM stage 3 ported heads milled(10.57to1 compression),plus cam. Idles and runs better than when it was bonestock with the 708 cam. No bucking surging whatsoever. Thats with the stock ECU, stock fuel system and stock injectors. Heres a video and dynograph ..

My updated dyno #s - ViperForums.net Dodge Viper Forum

618rwhp 610torque ( DP dyno) on 91 pump gas..

TOO funny as Dan Craigen and Nick at modern worked together on my program .The cam you have in you car i will bet is A TON Smaller than the cam in my GTS .What trap speed are you turning on stock pilots.Absolutely no way in the world your going to run the size cam i ran (Crower stage 2 plus AND NOT HAVE DRIVEABILITY issues.)Remember my bottom end was done i dont think you can run the size cam that i had =piston to valve issues without it)No natuarally asperated Viper on pump gas ever came near that car as it won 4 Mopar Atl Championships in the mod division .

 

[1BADGTS]

TOO funny as Dan Craigen and Nick at modern worked together on my program .The cam you have in you car i will bet is A TON Smaller than the cam in my GTS .What trap speed are you turning on stock pilots.Absolutely no way in the world your going to run the size cam i ran (Crower stage 2 plus AND NOT HAVE DRIVEABILITY issues.)Remember my bottom end was done i dont think you can run the size cam that i had =piston to valve issues without it)No natuarally asperated Viper on pump gas ever came near that car as it won 4 Mopar Atl Championships in the mod division .

Remember not only did i have the bottom end done(Ross pistons ,Crower Rods ) i ran the Mopar street strip head castings (not stock ) and ran 11.5 to 1 compression .and my intake manifold WAS cut apart hand ported and then extrude honed .The heads were done at Crower Motorsport ,larger valves -you name it.If you get Muscle Mustang and Fast Ford the car was actually featured on the cover Jan 2001 when it was choses to participate in a street car shootout of the fastest true street cars tri state area.

 

[bushido]

TOO funny as Dan Craigen and Nick at modern worked together on my program .The cam you have in you car i will bet is A TON Smaller than the cam in my GTS .What trap speed are you turning on stock pilots.Absolutely no way in the world your going to run the size cam i ran (Crower stage 2 plus AND NOT HAVE DRIVEABILITY issues.)Remember my bottom end was done i dont think you can run the size cam that i had =piston to valve issues without it)No natuarally asperated Viper on pump gas ever came near that car as it won 4 Mopar Atl Championships in the mod division .

So how much horsepower did your GTS make?

 

[1BADGTS]

So how much horsepower did your GTS make?

My whole point is its not revelant what it made on the dyno as dynos are measuring tools nothing more .Measuring tools with large variables (Gearing ,engine temp ect )The best measure of a Vipers horsepower is quarter mile trap speed on stock tires =ABSOLUTELY no way to manipulate that.If your at a sealevel track and TRUELY MAKING 600 to the tire in a Viper running stock tires your trapping at least 133 mph.The most i ever made is 580 to the tire running 3.54 gears(Car trapped at 132).Over the years i saw Viper owners produce dyno sheets claiming their cars were making 50 to the wheels more than i was yet were running 5 mph slower the same day at the same track sometimes with the same driver.

 

[bushido]

Put it this way any big, lumpy cam is going to effect drivability one way or the other. Its a sacrifice one has to take if they want more power,this goes with any push rod powered car. Take for example my buddies Z06. He went with the QM 550 cam, and his car bucks and surges at lower rpms.. Now that said, I still want to know how many horsepower your GTS put down..

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[1BADGTS]

My whole point is its not revelant what it made on the dyno as dynos are measuring tools nothing more .Measuring tools with large variables (Gearing ,engine temp ect )The best measure of a Vipers horsepower is quarter mile trap speed on stock tires =ABSOLUTELY no way to manipulate that.If your at a sealevel track and TRUELY MAKING 600 to the tire in a Viper running stock tires your trapping at least 133 mph.The most i ever made is 580 to the tire running 3.54 gears(Car trapped at 132).Over the years i saw Viper owners produce dyno sheets claiming their cars were making 50 to the wheels more than i was yet were running 5 mph slower the same day at the same track sometimes with the same driver.

I told you 580 but the number means nothing i could say 700 .Whatever it made it never got beat by another NA Viper tire for tire.Some years e would have 60 vipers running when it was the Mopar Atlantic National NE Viper Round UP.You race to win against OTHER CARS not their inflated dyno numbers.What do you say after a guy kicks your ass at the track =well my car dynoed FOR more power than his LOL.tHE OPERATION WAS A SUCCESS BUT THE PATIENT DIED.

 

[1BADGTS]

ps YOU still HAVE NOT TOLD ME WHAT YOUR CAR TRAPS AT in the quarter mile.

 

[bushido]

ps YOU still HAVE NOT TOLD ME WHAT YOUR CAR TRAPS AT in the quarter mile.

Im not a drag racer I do road course events.. So what did your car put down?

 

[1BADGTS]

Put it this way any big, lumpy cam is going to effect drivability one way or the other. Its a sacrifice one has to take if they want more power,this goes with any push rod powered car. Take for example my buddies Z06. He went with the QM 550 cam, and his car bucks and surges at lower rpms.. Now that said, I still want to know how many horsepower your GTS put down..

You must be registered for see images attach

PS its not only the power but more importantly the DRIVER.Take your buddys modded Z06 for example put him against Furman of Smith in a stock Z06 on stock tires 9 out of 10 times he gets his ass handed to him .