732 RWHP / 670 RWTQ Thanks to DC Performance and Woodhouse

[SquadX]

Any headers? Very impressive numbers regardless.

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

No headers, stock manifolds. One did crack though (apparently common on the srt10s) and Dan Craig/Woodhouse replaced it for me

Jon

 

[ILLSMOQ]

Dan says its in the passenger seat of the car, now I just have to get the car back to me

I'll ask Dan for the dyno files to, so maybe I could get them posted sooner if I can get those.

I'm looking forward to looking at the curve myself, not just the peak numbers.

Jon

Yeah get the dyno files, I can put them into the winpep program and overlay them onto my graph and we can see if the power curves are similar or different.

I realize this thread was not intended to be about DLM but you are so excited about your big number I found it absurd that you would knock some of the parts that enabled you to atain that mighty 732rwhp

So back to the DLM stuff.....The cooler is effective and looks great through the grill. It is installed with a couple zip ties, I will say that it's a pretty crude method of installation but it works, I padded mine in the locations I thought had the potential to come into contact with other components....no problem with it at all.

The tensionor helper thing, looks like something you could make out of a hand full of parts from home depot ( but it's not expensive so why bother trying to make it yourself?) Anyway it doesn't really matter what it looks like since it is out of sight and serves it's purpose as advertised.

The bottom line is the parts were not installed properly or not maintained properly....I'd point my finger at the maintanence part. I know Woodhouse is top notch but unfortunatly Mark is not around here to check on your car for you. The way the cooler is mounted does allow for some movement, so it might have been a good idea to take a look at it once in while knowing the nature of how it was installed.....but if Mark is going to flip the bill everytime why bother right?

$h!ty or not, I would challenge you to remove the DLM tensioner to see if the car makes full power with out it and also to see if it has a linear power curve "with out it".

I'll even pay for the dyno session

If you can come up with a better solution at a simialr price I'll try it. Doug actually does have a better solution but it is roughly 10x the cost...unless you come up with something better in the mean time Jonny, it looks like the DLM parts are all we have...take 'em or leave 'em I expect you will leave 'em...on you car

 

[MikeR]

The bottom line is the parts were not installed properly or not maintained properly....I'd point my finger at the maintanence part. I know Woodhouse is top notch but unfortunatly Mark is not around here to check on your car for you. The way the cooler is mounted does allow for some movement, so it might have been a good idea to take a look at it once in while knowing the nature of how it was installed.....

Cmon Kurtis, you know Jon is like me, he doesnt work on his car. He has no idea whats under his hood, he just pays to have someone install it. So , You mean to tell me there is maintenance and checking to do on these cars.

 

[ILLSMOQ]

yeah, id love to see the chart. please post it up if you dont mind

and its great to see you guys (mike,smoq and jon) beating each other up....

Isn't it? I'm having more fun on the forum today than I've had in months. Mikey gone from the Viper world and winter time really put the brakes on the fun

Hey Jonny I noticed in another thread you were talking about shipping the car to chicago or something??...you leaving us already???

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

Kurtis - I'll make it a point to not get you the files now.. didn't know you were that intersted in them, but you can get the image I put up on here, once I get it from DC (cant stop you). As far as the rest of your rant, you had some honesty in it (finally), so I'll drop it after this. But your right that the tentioner looks like crap, you and I spoke freely about how sheety it was, and how you felt it may have streched your belt from over tension, so you bought a new belt. Its odd how you agree with me in person, but on the forums put out a who new persona.. I guess I do too. And as far as the intercooler goes, you TOO ******* about its crude and ineffectiveness for an installation (much like on here), but also indicated you had done additional work OUTSIDE of the installation instructions to protect the intercooler. That shouldnt be necessary, but it was.. Thats not a maintenance item, thats installation. Woodhouse did what the install said, so that means the install wasnt sufficient, as proof in my blown condensor. This is pointless, I know you and Mikey like to fight (I do too), but that was never the point in this thread, even though it seems to have gotten you both worked up.. I'm guessing because I beat you both on the Dyno.... oh well.. sorry 4 u guys. Also looks like you brought Mikey out of retirement, he handn't posted on Viperclub in over 3 months (Since bailing out on his broken viper). He came back to support his boyfriend I guess.. or you called asking him to. You two lover birds are cute.


MikeR - No one is as imcompetent with cars as you, so that really hurts . But you did often lend me your garage to do my car work (and some of yours ), so I appeciate the garage loan...

 

[ILLSMOQ]

Kurtis - I'll make it a point to not get you the files now.. didn't know you were that intersted in them, but you can get the image I put up on here, once I get it from DC (cant stop you).

Actually the picture file doesn't do anything for me, I need the "winpep" file to put it in the "winpep" program.

As far as the rest of your rant, you had some honesty in it (finally), so I'll drop it after this. But your right that the tentioner looks like crap, you and I spoke freely about how sheety it was, and how you felt it may have streched your belt from over tension, so you bought a new belt. Its odd how you agree with me in person, but on the forums put out a who new persona.. I guess I do too.

In that conversation I suspected I had damaged the belt by over tightening the DLM tensioner. Doug actually instructs you to only take up the slack with his tensionor. I wanted to make sure there was no slippage so I cranked it down a bit and thought I might have stretched out the belt....Maybe I didn't tell you but when I started to replace the belt I found the blower dischage tube had slipped off the blower outlet and it was bleeding off a little boost. I put it back together and boost was all good...the belt was fine. Still have the new belt in the tool box. You don't deny the DLM tensionor does what it was designed to do...do you? Again I would prefer the spring loaded paxton tensionor to do its job, as the spring provides some cusion for the pullies and bearings where with the DLM piece the tensioner is held solidly in place. On that note it's been 5k miles and the solid setup has been trouble free so whatever ...maybe more time will tell.


And as far as the intercooler goes, you TOO ******* about its crude and ineffectiveness for an installation (much like on here), but also indicated you had done additional work OUTSIDE of the installation instructions to protect the intercooler. That shouldnt be necessary, but it was.. Thats not a maintenance item, thats installation. Woodhouse did what the install said, so that means the install wasnt sufficient, as proof in my blown condensor.
You got instructions?



This is pointless, I know you and Mikey like to fight (I do too), but that was never the point in this thread, even though it seems to have gotten you both worked up.. I'm guessing because I beat you both on the Dyno.... oh well.. sorry 4 u guys. Also looks like you brought Mikey out of retirement, he handn't posted on Viperclub in over 3 months (Since bailing out on his broken viper). He came back to support his boyfriend I guess.. or you called asking him to. You two lover birds are cute.

Good to see Mickey back on the forum eh? Yes you definatly took the title, congrats on the 732...I wonder if you will pull that number up here? I'd like to dyno mine again to see if it's still making the 691. Bringing the car bake to San Jose or what? I'm down for some dyno action....offer still stands to see if you'll make the same number with out the tensionor..I'll buy ..!..


MikeR - No one is as imcompetent with cars as you, so that really hurts . But you did often lend me your garage to do my car work (and some of yours ), so I appeciate the garage loan...

This was fun and you didn't even threaten to have me banned or have the thread locked this time

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

I never THREATEN to get you ban, I just try my damndest... never works.. guess they assume we're just playing......Were NOT.

Anyways, I dont really care about your rant, and I only do it justice by keep responding, but the best part is you missed the fact that I said "Kurtis - I'll make it a point to NOT get you the files now.. didn't know you were that intersted in them,"....

I cant stop you from getting the image, but I sure can NOT give you the files.

Thanks!

Jon

 

[Bobpantax]

1. Based on the mods and 91 octane fuel, the numbers do not make any sense. They are too high. Are you sure they are not at the flywheel?

2. I have the stock tensioner and the stock intercooler. The only power related alterations are DC blower tune installed by SCT, 170 degree thermostat, colder plugs and Corsa cat back. I have run the car on the 2.2 mile road course at Homestead Speedway as recently as 1/3/09. The segments are 25 minutes long. I had no problems and the car pulled away on the straights like a bat out of hell. (Just ask a certain local Dr. friend who was behind me.)

3. I really think that Paxton designed an excellent stock kit and, when installed and tuned properly( the DC tunes do a great job ), it is one of the real bargains of the performance world.

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

1. Based on the mods and 91 octane fuel, the numbers do not make any sense. They are too high. Are you sure they are not at the flywheel?

.

hahahahahhha
hahahahahahahhahahaah....

Oh Bob... DC and I have no idea what we are talking about... thanks for clearing it up.

Yeah.. its at the crank...

I better go back for the last 7 years of viper ownage and 30+ dyno runs and make sure I tell everyone I dont know the difference between CRANK HP and RWHP & RWTQ like I posted.

I have dyno'd my Vipers all over this country.. yes read that again, all over this country I have dyno'd my Vipers: Chicago, Los Angelous, Silicon Valley, Raleigh, Charlotte, Nebraska, and even Florida... every time I posted any numbers from any of those runs, it was RWHP and RWTQ.

Call Dan and ask him yourself... about the numbers he quoted me, its RWHP/RWTQ.

Also.. SCT tune PALES in comparison to a LIVE on the DYNO tune. Ball parking it is NOTHING like fine tuning it. Real gains come from on the dyno at Dan's shop.

Try it sometime!

Jon

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

Funny enough though, I remember a time when I questioned KenricGTS on his Paxton car. He was pulling some 'stock' system numbers that were unheard of, easily overshadowing my cars completely stock 'but added a paxton to it' dyno numbers.

Since then I added a complete 3.0 inch no-cat, cat-back system. DC Tune, KBB throttlebody, alumn flywheel (adds nothing to numbers of course), 3.21 gears (supposedly takes numbers away on a dyno), AB Wires (never heard of these making power), 18 inch SSR wheels (again no power advantage on the dyno, prob hurt me), of course stock paxton kit, dan craigs pvc, (aforementioned but non fan of DLM parts), 180 thermastat, STOCK shorty headers (again not an add, but want to make clear), and I honestly cant remember anything else.

Please also note, MikeR and IllSmoQ know my cars mods just as well as I do. If I was missing ANYTHING, they would have MORE then happily jump on my *** and added whatever was left off. Certainly that should add 'confrimation' to my configuration, much like I knew what theirs was when they were 'in the game.' Now saying that, I can imagine they'd jump on here and start making crap up just to get a rile out of me, but I'll not play along.

If my numbers are that big of a deal, maybe I should be a little more appeciatiative of them. I really didnt think it was that big of a deal, when Dan told me I had cleared 700 rwhp, thats all I cared about. When it came to 732, I honestly wasn't too excited, Dan seemed more excited then I did. I guess I had set a lower goal, 'break 700 rwhp, and make sure its safe.' I am not one of those guys saying 'oh this is ultra conservative, we could have gotten more power' ... hell no.. I wanted the MOST power thats SAFE.... not puzzy safe (where its FAT FAT), but Max power with a nice AFR safety margin, and 11.5 is safe by my standards. I would have been happy with 11.80-12.0 AFR... Dan just made it even better by pulling a win at 11.5 and still making that power. Lean is mean, but dangerous. Looks like slightly Fat can still be quick as a Bat.

Enjoy,

Jon

PS. Car has 26k miles on it (everyone of them done under paxton power), I'm sure many would agree a broken in motor certainly makes a nice bit of power over a green one.

 

[Bobpantax]

My car was prepared by Woodhouse. The SCT tune was prepared by Dan's people based on dynographs of my car supplied to them by Mark J and me. I did not mean to rub your feelings the wrong way but your numbers are just too high regardless of who did the tune and, regardless of whether it was done on the dyno or not, based on 91 octane fuel and an 11.5 A/F across the RPM range. I would appreciate it if Dan could jump in and explain this result since your numbers conflict with many prior posts by other VCA members with similar set ups who have had their Paxtons installed and their engines tuned by competent people. Assuming it was a dynojet, and using a 12% driveline loss factor which many others have used, the above numbers mean 831.8 HP/ 761.4 ft/lbs of torque at the flywheel. Flame me if you wish but I do not believe the numbers are accurate.

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

I dont need to flame you Bob, I had the same setup as you did and it made 640 rwhp. Check my old posts, you'll see.

Wether or not Dan wants to come on here and defend, I could care less. If you dont believe, I could also careless. I didnt believe Kendick for the longest time, and now I feel like a Boob (or is it a Bob), for not believing him back then.

No 2 cars are the same, and even the slightest of mods can make a difference. I do NOT think my car is special, if someone matched it IDENTICALLY with the SAME mods (INCLUDING my exact exhaust system configuration), they'd get close is my guess. Of course including Dan's Tune.

Thanks for strokin my ego, (like it needed it), the more you dont believe the better I feel about the car and its power!!

Jon

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

PS. The DC performance on the dyno tune VS the SCT dyno files/dyno graph tune DOESNT compare. How do I know? I did that too.. and know the difference.

Don't kid yourself, they dont have your car in front of them, with exactly the information they need in real time, when they change this variable or that one. They get you in the ball park with a SCT tune, on the dyno, they try more and less timing, more and less fuel, and play around with the Split second box's curves.... please explain how they did this SPLIT SECOND box tune with the SCT tuner? They didnt. So you only gave them PART of the system to tune.

 

[Bobpantax]

640 RWHP was a tad on the low side for a stock Paxton kit and I believe a number of us commented on that at the time. I am not asking Dan to defend. I am asking him to explain. One of the main purposes of these fora is to share reliable data among VCA members. Your data varies from the norm. It would be useful to know the reason for the variation. It is too big just to be a difference in your car, especially in view of the prior 640 RWHP number. Also, based on 11.5 A/F and 91 octane, it just does not seem possible. Your personal attack indicates that your feelings are still a bit hurt. It was not my intention to hurt your feelings and for that I apologize.

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

lol. Bob I was makinga joke. Don't take it as a personal attack, much like I didnt take yours when it seemed you called me a liar (dont believe my numbers), or an idiot (didnt know the diff between rwhp and crank hp). If you took my joke seriously, then the appology is from me, I thought i was being witty.. guess not.

Jon

 

[plumcrazy]

i know of at least 2 SRT's with similar mods that are over 700RWHP. i didnt personally see them on the dyno but was told by a reputable tuner.

 

[Bobpantax]

What exactly is the DLM tensioner? I know that Paxton produces a tensioner tool. Is the tensioner that tool slightly altered for use as an installation? Also, it seems to me that Paxton must have balanced durabilty against possible slippage when it determined the proper tension of the belt for the kit. Furthermore, since the kit has been out now for a number of years, if there was a need for more tension, wouldn't Paxton want to have developed and sold the part themselves based on their own tool? Lastly, doesn't more tension increase the possibility of damage to the nose bearings on the supercharger and other components run by the same belt? There has to be a limit to the amount of tension that the system can take without causing damage. Wouldn't Paxton have tested this when they developed the kit? After all, it does come with a limited warranty for three years and an optional powertrain warranty. I am not flaming the product. I am just asking basic questions that I believe any reasonable person would want answered before using the mod.

 

[ILLSMOQ]

I never THREATEN to get you ban, I just try my damndest... never works.. guess they assume we're just playing......Were NOT.

Anyways, I dont really care about your rant, and I only do it justice by keep responding, but the best part is you missed the fact that I said "Kurtis - I'll make it a point to NOT get you the files now.. didn't know you were that intersted in them,"....

I cant stop you from getting the image, but I sure can NOT give you the files.

Thanks!

Jon

Well that's just mean

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

Well that's just mean

Thats how we do each other...


But.. why not help Bob out! He has some valid points ya know... respond to them, since you're a champion of the product and Bob's yer boy! You've already derailed my thread, why stop now.

 

[ILLSMOQ]

1. Based on the mods and 91 octane fuel, the numbers do not make any sense. They are too high. Are you sure they are not at the flywheel?

2. I have the stock tensioner and the stock intercooler. The only power related alterations are DC blower tune installed by SCT, 170 degree thermostat, colder plugs and Corsa cat back. I have run the car on the 2.2 mile road course at Homestead Speedway as recently as 1/3/09. The segments are 25 minutes long. I had no problems and the car pulled away on the straights like a bat out of hell. (Just ask a certain local Dr. friend who was behind me.)

3. I really think that Paxton designed an excellent stock kit and, when installed and tuned properly( the DC tunes do a great job ), it is one of the real bargains of the performance world.

Bob, 732rwhp seems reasonable enough to me given the mods Jon has on his car.
Big numbers are easily attainable if you know what you are doing with the tune in the PCM and the split second box....LOOKEY HERE.

The paxton kit gives you a ton of power out of the box and as many of us have proved leaves plenty of room for guys like us to wring more power out of them.

As for the road course, while your car does well at the track, I would be nervous running mine on a track. Maybe I'm overly cautious but I think with my setup things would get a little hot for those cast pistons....even though it runs very rich.

 

[ILLSMOQ]

Funny enough though, I remember a time when I questioned KenricGTS on his Paxton car. He was pulling some 'stock' system numbers that were unheard of, easily overshadowing my cars completely stock 'but added a paxton to it' dyno numbers.

Yeah I'm still doubtful of his numbers...I think that was a generous dyno...I'd like to see what that car pulls on another dyno.


Please also note, MikeR and IllSmoQ know my cars mods just as well as I do. If I was missing ANYTHING, they would have MORE then happily jump on my *** and added whatever was left off. Certainly that should add 'confrimation' to my configuration, much like I knew what theirs was when they were 'in the game.' Now saying that, I can imagine they'd jump on here and start making crap up just to get a rile out of me, but I'll not play along.

Am I not in the game anymore????? I'm still throwing money at the car


If my numbers are that big of a deal, maybe I should be a little more appeciatiative of them. I really didnt think it was that big of a deal, when Dan told me I had cleared 700 rwhp, thats all I cared about. When it came to 732, I honestly wasn't too excited, Dan seemed more excited then I did. I guess I had set a lower goal, 'break 700 rwhp, and make sure its safe.' I am not one of those guys saying 'oh this is ultra conservative, we could have gotten more power' ... hell no.. I wanted the MOST power thats SAFE.... not puzzy safe (where its FAT FAT), but Max power with a nice AFR safety margin, and 11.5 is safe by my standards. I would have been happy with 11.80-12.0 AFR... Dan just made it even better by pulling a win at 11.5 and still making that power. Lean is mean, but dangerous. Looks like slightly Fat can still be quick as a Bat.

Enjoy,

Jon

PS. Car has 26k miles on it (everyone of them done under paxton power), I'm sure many would agree a broken in motor certainly makes a nice bit of power over a green one.

Is the AFR reading 11.5 all the way to the top? Did they bump the rev limiter at all?

 

[ILLSMOQ]

What exactly is the DLM tensioner? I know that Paxton produces a tensioner tool. Is the tensioner that tool slightly altered for use as an installation?

That's probably the best description for it. At the end of the paxton tool there is a cup that pushes the tensionor to relase the tension during installation and removal of the blower. Insted of a cup the DLM tool uses a loop to pull the paxton tensionor tighter....you loose the damping factor the spring provides but you gain tightness in the belt.

Also, it seems to me that Paxton must have balanced durabilty against possible slippage when it determined the proper tension of the belt for the kit.

I'm sure they have and there is no doubt in my mind that the tension system as it comes from Paxton will out last the same system modified with the DLM part...but when the later set up does have a problem it will most likely be with the paxton tensionor (30-80 dollar part depending on your source) or the DLM part so it's not a big deal anyway.

Furthermore, since the kit has been out now for a number of years, if there was a need for more tension, wouldn't Paxton want to have developed and sold the part themselves based on their own tool? Lastly, doesn't more tension increase the possibility of damage to the nose bearings on the supercharger and other components run by the same belt? There has to be a limit to the amount of tension that the system can take without causing damage.

I'm sure many people are very happy with the kit out of the box, then there is the handful of guys like us that are aware of everything that is going on with our car...if I see I'm down a couple HP due to slight belt slippage I'm inclined to fix the problem or improve the system to fit my needs. You are right in that you can put to much tension on the system and damage other components....So you would want to be sure that you are doing it right if you decide to install the DLM part on your car. Again Doug only advises you to take up the slack, not crank it down.

Wouldn't Paxton have tested this when they developed the kit? After all, it does come with a limited warranty for three years and an optional powertrain warranty. I am not flaming the product. I am just asking basic questions that I believe any reasonable person would want answered before using the mod.

These are perfectly reasonable questions...hopfully I'm helping you with information I've learned through my own experiance with the paxton and some of the available "upgrade" (subjective word apparantly) parts.

 

[ILLSMOQ]

Thats how we do each other...


But.. why not help Bob out! He has some valid points ya know... respond to them, since you're a champion of the product and Bob's yer boy! You've already derailed my thread, why stop now.

derailed?? C'mon! This is a higher HP paxton thread is it not? We alredy talked about your numbers, how great DC performance, Woodhouse and even you are...I chimed in that I like DLM too (though you and I agree to disagree on that one) now we are talking about what it takes to make 732 at the wheels

 

[99 R/T 10]

Ya know, I'll this proves is that y'all are a bunch of Dynopuzzies. Get it to the track and show me the MONEY................................................ or time slips

 

[ILLSMOQ]

Ya know, I'll this proves is that y'all are a bunch of Dynopuzzies. Get it to the track and show me the MONEY................................................ or time slips

Fine....... When the weather gets nice we will go to the track. I hope to break into the tens, I know the car is capable....but not so sure if I am

 

[Wezbad1]

If your planning on going to Sac in Feb or march, pls let me know. Theres a few of us that have been wanting to test. Would be nice to see at least 1 other viper.

 

[ILLSMOQ]

Yes lets plan on it....we need to figure out a day where it wont be packed though, last time I went I only got a handful of runs.

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

well... it would have to be this week if you want to do head to head runs.... because.........

Your only other shot would be if you and your viper found its way to Chicago ;-)

We decided we're going back to Chicago to live (So Hannah can finally get back into a Nursing Program and finish her degree instead of this waiting list crap here in Cali). But I'll be out here every 4th week for work. (I'm going to work from home 3 week out of the month in Chicago). But I wont have my Viper here...

If there are any tracks open during the week, then lets do this, I'll take a day off from work and we'll make a day of it !! You FINALLY agree to drag racing, 1 week before we head back to Chicago.

Jon

 

[99 R/T 10]

Man, that's too bad Jon. I want to try and be the first with an 08 to break into the 10's, but won't be out there with the car until late April. What are the 1/4 miles tracks around the bay area? Last one I knew about was Fremont, but they closed that one a looooooong time ago