Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Carbs and FI have virtually no bearing on skill.
ABS -vs- non ABS Vipers
- Thread starter Stray Cat
- Start date
Carbs and FI have virtually no bearing on skill.
SylvanSRT
Enthusiast
what about tire technology(rubber compounds, tread patterns, ect..), should we go back to tall skinny tubed, bias plys and have to perfect our driving skill with those? i have no problem with technolgy getting into cars if it makes it safer, faster, AND in some case like traction control( completely defeatable, some would argue ABS should be also, i have no interest in T/C btw)
agentf1
Enthusiast
I was told the ABS brakes will pay themselves off real fast if you track the car with what it will cost you from flat spotting the tires on the non ABS cars. I have no first hand experience but was told this by somebody that tracks their Viper regularly so take it for what it is worth. 
Andrew/USPWR
Enthusiast
ABS is always a plus but, if there's a color in the earlier years that you have to have. The ABS shouldn't be a deal breaker.
I bought the 2000, non-ABS for the steel gray color but planned to add the ABS later.
I bought the 2000, non-ABS for the steel gray color but planned to add the ABS later.
Warfang
Enthusiast
By that logic, people racing should be able to nitrous, and turbo/sc their cars... I mean they are just tools right? If the other guy doesn't have it, tough. You should then be able to set up an onboard computer driver that you can load in the track and it drives for you... all you need to do is push the ignition. If you steer wrong, it finds the apex for you and throttles down if you need it.
Things like better tires are passive aides... one which would not help much if you don't know how to use it to your advantage. ABS helps EVERYONE that has it, thats why it's good for street, and a cheat on the track.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Tires have virtually no baring on one's skills either. Next example?
Maybe you should track a non-ABS car for a while to understand what we are saying about skill required.
Don't take this personal but if you're hot on tech making you faster you really bought the wrong car, I mean you REALLY, REALLY bought the wrong car.
Purdue_Boiler_Viper
Enthusiast
Some here are racers, and some are not. I understand that the racer wants a level playing field, and to reward the best driver vs. the best car. But, most of us are not racers and ABS can make it safer, and less expensive when we do occasionally track the car. It's not much fun to flat spot tires or damage the car off course.
So, for you racers I understand that ABS on the track is an unfair advantage. But, for us non-racers ABS can save us $$$ and make the track experience more fun. The racer might think that the ABS user should learn better driving skills, but is that realistic for someone who tracks the car once or twice a year?
ABS also helps on the drive home from the track, when the person in the car ahead of you talking on their cell phone suddenly slams on their brakes! ... or loses control in the rain, etc. etc. etc.
So, for you racers I understand that ABS on the track is an unfair advantage. But, for us non-racers ABS can save us $$$ and make the track experience more fun. The racer might think that the ABS user should learn better driving skills, but is that realistic for someone who tracks the car once or twice a year?
ABS also helps on the drive home from the track, when the person in the car ahead of you talking on their cell phone suddenly slams on their brakes! ... or loses control in the rain, etc. etc. etc.
ViperGTS
Enthusiast
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Stopping distance on a wet surface is considerably reduced with ABS.
I had both, a 99 GTS and the 2002 RT/10.
On the track, during driving schools and braking VERY HARD, I flat spotted the front tires in my GTS, to prevent hitting "virtual" obstacles...in the RT/10 you can steer (up to a certain degree) around obstacles and brake HARD also.
Might prevent an accident.
The average JOE driver (99% of us) on the public road is doing way better with ABS.
I had both, a 99 GTS and the 2002 RT/10.
On the track, during driving schools and braking VERY HARD, I flat spotted the front tires in my GTS, to prevent hitting "virtual" obstacles...in the RT/10 you can steer (up to a certain degree) around obstacles and brake HARD also.
Might prevent an accident.
The average JOE driver (99% of us) on the public road is doing way better with ABS.
Warfang
Enthusiast
Totally agree, but that does deviate from what the Viper represents, albiet one I'm willing to live with (in addition to air conditioning and power windows).
The thread has been hijacked by the pro vs con nannytech argument that will go on forever in the Viper community.
SylvanSRT
Enthusiast
i have driven other cars on the track that didn't have ABS and did not have a problem(it did not exist on cars at the time, or was not prevalent). Believe me i know Vipers are not very high tech
To me the best reply (from Cody) for everyday driving and non track is the fact that we really do not know what may come up in routine driving - a kid on a bike, a turn that was more than we thought etc. So not being en expert driver and never having tracked a Viper, that is something I need to look at and this is all very helpful. I love the 2000 Steel Grey cars. I love the Blue cars from 2001 (although the paint on mine was worse than any Black car I have ever owned) The 2002 Grey is pretty too. Can't go wrong with the yellow or black. Got to love red but too many of them for me..... So I'll look for the deal when time arrives and deal with the brakes if I do not end up with a 2001-2002 but that is what I am leaning towards. And the adjustable pedals are a real plus.......
Thanks !
John
Thanks !
John
Michael Levy
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I have been reading this forum for a long time and finally decided to weigh in.
I owned a 1994 RT/10 and traded for a 2001 GTS three years ago. ABS is night and day over Gen I braking. I cannot speak about the Gen II non-ABS cars but I figure that the ABS has paid for itself ealy on.
I was on a "spirited drive" with my son a few "friends" a couple of years ago. Porsches, Ferraris, a Z8 or two. There was even a Saleen S7. Some genius in a Porsche Turbo went to the far side of a rolling hill and decided to stop for directions. Over the hill at about 70mph, I needed to make a quick stop. It would have been pretty nasty in the RT/10. With the ABS is was just a slight soil job in the pants. Or put another way, the skid mark was NOT on the road. After that, I bugged out.
Anyway, as someone said a while back, ABS is a waste until you need it. Just like airbags.
-M-
I owned a 1994 RT/10 and traded for a 2001 GTS three years ago. ABS is night and day over Gen I braking. I cannot speak about the Gen II non-ABS cars but I figure that the ABS has paid for itself ealy on.
I was on a "spirited drive" with my son a few "friends" a couple of years ago. Porsches, Ferraris, a Z8 or two. There was even a Saleen S7. Some genius in a Porsche Turbo went to the far side of a rolling hill and decided to stop for directions. Over the hill at about 70mph, I needed to make a quick stop. It would have been pretty nasty in the RT/10. With the ABS is was just a slight soil job in the pants. Or put another way, the skid mark was NOT on the road. After that, I bugged out.
Anyway, as someone said a while back, ABS is a waste until you need it. Just like airbags.
-M-
Warfang
Enthusiast
What took you so long? Welcome to the melee!
They say if you're in the middle of the road, you'll get hit by oncoming traffic from both sides.
This is the dilemma of a Viper owner. ABS, while great for street, goes against everything the Viper stands for... a true driver's car, pure and raw. In that regard, I worship the Gen1, but will probably never buy one. The daily driver in me want ABS AND traction control, but the purist in me just can't stomach it. I mean, the whole reason why I loved the car when it first came out was that it thumbed it's nose at conventional wisdom at the time. Now that it's slowly conforming... it's hard to accept it. Herb Helbig's job isn't easy that's for sure.
Now if they would only sell a street legal Comp Coupe...
Lake Murray Viper
Enthusiast
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
LOL
Only two pre-ABS Vipers remain today. I own both of them. All the others met with a horrid ending because they didn't have ABS.
None of the wrecks had anything to do with the driver.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
ABS allegedly saved you on your "spirited drive" so now everybody has to have it?
I do spirited drives about once a month. No problems.
CANTDRIVE55
Enthusiast
Hi,
Chuck has the data on his side.....
The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety did a study in 1996 on the effects of ABS and found that vehicles with ABS are NO LESS LIKELY to be involved in fatal accidents than those without. This may be due to "pilot error", that is, the drivers may be incorrectly applying their ABS brakes by "pumping" them and actually increasing the time to a stop. Under controlled conditions, ABS will stop a car faster on wet roads in the hands (or feet in this instance) of an untrained driver, or even many professional drivers, IF the untrained driver uses them correctly. Not needed on the track in a nutshell. I might guess that you can "fool" the ABS module into activating prematurely on the track since you can decelerate more rapidly with stickier track tires. Chuck, is this correct?
Chuck has the data on his side.....
The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety did a study in 1996 on the effects of ABS and found that vehicles with ABS are NO LESS LIKELY to be involved in fatal accidents than those without. This may be due to "pilot error", that is, the drivers may be incorrectly applying their ABS brakes by "pumping" them and actually increasing the time to a stop. Under controlled conditions, ABS will stop a car faster on wet roads in the hands (or feet in this instance) of an untrained driver, or even many professional drivers, IF the untrained driver uses them correctly. Not needed on the track in a nutshell. I might guess that you can "fool" the ABS module into activating prematurely on the track since you can decelerate more rapidly with stickier track tires. Chuck, is this correct?
C O D Y
Enthusiast
This is great reading! Love hearing you guys tell everyone they don't need ABS.
Here some more great topics for you.....
Airbags Kill......
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a981127.html
Flat Earth Society....
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm
Here's Elliot Levine's (University of Winnipeg) "study" that say you're 70% more likely to die if you're wearing a seat belt....
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1492281&blobtype=pdf
It's on the internet so it must be true!
Here some more great topics for you.....
Airbags Kill......
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a981127.html
Flat Earth Society....
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm
Here's Elliot Levine's (University of Winnipeg) "study" that say you're 70% more likely to die if you're wearing a seat belt....
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1492281&blobtype=pdf
It's on the internet so it must be true!
SylvanSRT
Enthusiast
"I believe none of what I read and half of what I see" Samuel Clement aka: Mark Twain
CANTDRIVE55
Enthusiast
BTW, I wasn't implying that you don't need ABS brakes. In fact, the average driver who knows how to apply them will do better than many professional drivers (Chuck excluded) without ABS. Additionally, there may be a shift in the findings with more current unpublished studies (and with more savvy "average" drivers) to justify their use.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Again for the pro-ABS folks, if you are so dependent on ABS and can't seem to leave the driveway without it why did you buy a Viper? Certainly your obsession for such a car couldn't be anywhere near as great as that of the "Passion of the Purists" (future Mel Gibson sequel). So what aspect was sooooooo irresistible that you overlooked such a critical life-saving feature such as ABS on this "tech-less" car?
C O D Y
Enthusiast
Andrew2KRT10
Enthusiast
Go with the body style you like and do the upgrade
Go with Chuck. No ABS. In fact keep all of the thrills off. How well do you think vipers would sell with 60 - 0 braking distances of 125-130 ft (like a pre-ABS car)?
Like I sais ABS helps braking distance even without invoking the ABS system due to better brake bias. Poor brake bias is the bane of pre-ABS cars. If you like bad brakes but want to act like a he-man go with Chuck.
But please do not use race cars as the example. They provide optimal brake bias for the track but would be scary on a street under less than ideal situations (wet, cold, etc).
Like I sais ABS helps braking distance even without invoking the ABS system due to better brake bias. Poor brake bias is the bane of pre-ABS cars. If you like bad brakes but want to act like a he-man go with Chuck.
But please do not use race cars as the example. They provide optimal brake bias for the track but would be scary on a street under less than ideal situations (wet, cold, etc).
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Show me the braking tests between ABS GenII and non-ABS 00. All the tests I've seen are near identical.
Gen I and early Gen II is about 125 to 130 ft. Gen II ABS about 110 ft. Gen III about 100 ft. Vipers did not get the full benefit of ABS until Gen III with electronic proportioning.
I still remember a VOI when ABS was just added. The autocross times were substantially better with ABS. The slow speed high braking conditions with pre-ABS was almost all front brake. Using all 4 brakes was a big help, even if you did not hit the ABS. That was a back to back eval many of us did. It was eye opening.
I still remember a VOI when ABS was just added. The autocross times were substantially better with ABS. The slow speed high braking conditions with pre-ABS was almost all front brake. Using all 4 brakes was a big help, even if you did not hit the ABS. That was a back to back eval many of us did. It was eye opening.
Tom Hayden wins the NY/NJ autocross every year against all comers in his Gen1 with his brake upgrade kit. That's right, GEN 1.
http://forums.viperclub.org/showthread.php?t=600414
http://forums.viperclub.org/showthread.php?t=600414
Andrew/USPWR
Enthusiast
How about, love the one you want to get with
