ViperSmith
Enthusiast
I have to agree with the C7, did they have it up on the stage in the corner when you saw it?
i was excited to see the C7 (well of course the Viper too), but the C7 was just uninspiring.
ACR in Motor Trend
- Thread starter Mopar488
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i was excited to see the C7 (well of course the Viper too), but the C7 was just uninspiring.
Solid Red 98
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Ralph Gilles calls BS on Autoblog/Motor Trend's (or should I say Chevy Trend's) accusations that Ferrari is limiting the performance of the viper:
@InsideFerrari @RalphGilles Surely #Ferrari can compete with new sibling the #SRTViper without the help of parents? http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/25/will-fiat-cap-performance-of-2014-srt-viper-acr-out-of-fear-for/ …
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9 hrs Ralph Gilles Ralph Gilles @RalphGilles
@alexandervalys @insideferrari There is NO truth to this. Ferrari plays to a totally different market. Based on joke I made at the NY reveal
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@InsideFerrari @RalphGilles Surely #Ferrari can compete with new sibling the #SRTViper without the help of parents? http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/25/will-fiat-cap-performance-of-2014-srt-viper-acr-out-of-fear-for/ …
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9 hrs Ralph Gilles Ralph Gilles @RalphGilles
@alexandervalys @insideferrari There is NO truth to this. Ferrari plays to a totally different market. Based on joke I made at the NY reveal
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VENOM V
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Motor Trend has risen to the same status as National Enquirer- an absolute rock-solid champion of truth! LOL, thank you Ralph for commenting on this silliness.
SnakeBitten
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Finally this rumor can be put to sleep. Bring on the ACR with a nice bump in hp and lower p2w ratio. Knock this one out the park SRT.
A "nice bump" in power is possible, but I don't think with emissions legality and losing a lot of torque below 3500 rpm. Ilmor Marine uses the 8.4 as the basis for a 725 hp marine engine. This engine passes the most stringent marine emissions regs in the world (California), but marine engines don't use catalytic converters, and marine engines don't need the wide torque band an automotive engine requires. Peak torque from the marine v10 is 649 but at 5400 rpm. Sounds like it's cammed up pretty good doesn't it? With a cam like that would it pass the low rpm emissions dyno cycle? I don't think so, does anybody else?
Exactly ,its comparing apples and oranges .Besides emissions (which it will NEVER EVER PASS with a cam big enough to get 700 hp)theres also DODGES DRIVABILITY TEST (no vacume poor low speed driveability ect ect.) On top of all the above will be warranty critera testing another problem .Then theres the millions of dollars needed for the EPA RECERTIF-wheres that coming from.
PS from what i have been told by the mag guys 650 hp out of a 500 CU 2 valve single cam engine is a NICE OUTPUT .SRT would have like to have more but where was the money coming from to develop SUPERCHARGING or MULTIVALVE EXOTIC VALVETRAINS ECT .Everything today MUST not only pass emissions but inhouse driveability and warranty tests .
SnakeBitten
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It doesn't have to have 700hp to be killer. But 700 sounds nice. But maybe a more practical remedy for more power in the ACR could be a freer flowing exhaust, headers and a factory tune thats specific to the ACR model. I can see that adding about 30hp or so or more and still be emissions friendly no? I've had intake, exhaust, headers and a chip on one of my cars in the past and it still passed emissions and ran trouble free for 60k miles. I never failed emissions and never had to take it to the "special" emissions spot to pass.
I'm not versed on the emissions side of things so is the test your car has to pass to get its emissions tag the same or similar testing the mfg are held to when they certify the engine? If so then it shouldn't be a problem to have a 670hp+ ACR if Im understanding things right. Add some real weight savings, Trofeos, brakes with that and you have something real nasty on your hands.
An example of what I mean is the 370z adn its ACR-like Nismo varient. It has special tune and intake and exhaust IIRC to achieve more hp while still passing emissions etc. If Nissan can do that with a comparitively miniscule 3.7l V6 then why cant SRT? Different architecture and tech to be sure but it just seems like it should be plausable for the Viper as well.
I'm not versed on the emissions side of things so is the test your car has to pass to get its emissions tag the same or similar testing the mfg are held to when they certify the engine? If so then it shouldn't be a problem to have a 670hp+ ACR if Im understanding things right. Add some real weight savings, Trofeos, brakes with that and you have something real nasty on your hands.
An example of what I mean is the 370z adn its ACR-like Nismo varient. It has special tune and intake and exhaust IIRC to achieve more hp while still passing emissions etc. If Nissan can do that with a comparitively miniscule 3.7l V6 then why cant SRT? Different architecture and tech to be sure but it just seems like it should be plausable for the Viper as well.
Any header exhaust system capable of generating 30 hp would never ever pass Dodges inhouse driveability tests due to the noise being generated .Everything always comes down to money Nissan (370 Z )Chevy with the Vette can do things SRT cant because the Rand D cost are assimulated over the 50k plus cars per year they are selling from their respective platforms .Keep in mind SRT changes a nut and bolt on the ACRs engine and its millions to recertify for a few hundred cars per year .
SnakeBitten
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I see. Hmmmm. Well then its time to lower the weight substantially and call it a day then if its next to impossible for them to offer more power with the comparatively meager budget SRT has for R and D. As such I'm sure they don't have the money for an all new aluminum frame for the ACR model so they will have cut weight the old fashioned way.
Id like to see them put the same amount of effort into reducing weight for the ACR as they did with adding the amenities for the GTS. It may just be unrealistic to expect too much considering their monetary handicap I suppose. Regardless I'm eager to see what they come up with.
Engineering time (lower weight )costs money as they would probably have to pull engineers from another more profitable platform to move back to Viper .(Also if they could get the weight out WITHOUT using costly exotic materials if would probably neccesitate some type of GOVT CRASH TEST RECERT which would of course cost money )The Gen 5 are competiting in a price class against cars whose platform budgets are probably 20x that of the VIPER .From what i have been told the limited availability single use platform of the GEN 5 makes it to it extremely difficult and costly for SRT to devote dollars to as they will never get it back from selling a few thousand Vipers. Look at the ZR-1 for example a derivitive of that motor is not only going in 30k Vetts PER YEAR but how many CADDYS ,pick up trucks ect.
Bitten ,let me give you an example of what the car companys have to go thru regarding weight ,crash tests ect .In 2003 John Coletti (former head of Ford SVT )sent a protottype FGT and about 15 engineers to Englishtown NJ to get some drag strip torture testing done by my mag buddys .Coletti told me his plan was for the car to come in around 3000lbs .By the time all the saftey equipt needed to pass the govt crash tests was added the car was 3300lbs.The above being said Coletti didnt have the budget resources in manpower or material to do anything about it The car stayed at 3300lbs
Headers on a newer Viper will not pass Emissions, nor will high flow cats. Neither will get the cats hot enough to really work and clean up exhaust. Unfortunately I found this out hard and expensive way. BTW new 2012 EPA regs changed whole game.
Why do you think new Viper is still not certified? I know they were having major time with EPA cert on present configuration. It is very possible this may be last NA at the bigger CID. It is near impossible to keep getting it to pass in the future, let alone now.
Why do you think new Viper is still not certified? I know they were having major time with EPA cert on present configuration. It is very possible this may be last NA at the bigger CID. It is near impossible to keep getting it to pass in the future, let alone now.
ViperSmith
Enthusiast
Thanks Obama
Literally
Literally
chorps
Enthusiast
Just so everyone understands...from Maurice's book (everyone should get this). Getting more power wasn't in the cards this round simply because the engine needed to be brought up to full OBD spec.
"For 2008, the Viper's engine was dramatically upgraded, primarily to improve the misfire detection system. [redacted] Millions of dollars were spent to satisfy OBD regulations...full-range detection was still not achieved.
So once again, for 2013, a great deal of work was required to satisfy the misfire detection requirement, which used up most of the powertrain budget and resources. [snip]
We had twelve months to find new suppliers, tweak the design, test and calibrate."
-from SRT Viper: America's Supercar Returns
"For 2008, the Viper's engine was dramatically upgraded, primarily to improve the misfire detection system. [redacted] Millions of dollars were spent to satisfy OBD regulations...full-range detection was still not achieved.
So once again, for 2013, a great deal of work was required to satisfy the misfire detection requirement, which used up most of the powertrain budget and resources. [snip]
We had twelve months to find new suppliers, tweak the design, test and calibrate."
-from SRT Viper: America's Supercar Returns
SnakeBitten
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Interesting info guys. Emissions regs bites. Crash safety I won't argue with eventhough it adds a ton of weight. Well it does look like FI or a smaller size engine will be in the Vipers future if they are having so much trouble certifying it at 640hp NA.
Before they go that route I'd love to see what SRT could do with a budget on par with its peers.
Before they go that route I'd love to see what SRT could do with a budget on par with its peers.
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rw99
Enthusiast
...just wish there'd be a way to get our V10's redline to 7000 or 7200 without breaking the engineering bank. 
Why, please list reasonsst
...just wish there'd be a way to get our V10's redline to 7000 or 7200 without breaking the engineering bank.
This is a major issue. Dodge/SRT/Fiat must figure out this R&D/Budget issue quickly. Do they want a "Halo" car or not?
While it is easy to sympathize with issues presented by a small volume/limited demand/price-constrained product, from the consumer standpoint the consumer is looking for up-to-date technology, performance, styling and value. Just as GM is addressing this with the Corvette, so must SRT--hopefully by the time of the release of the ACR with upgrades to the Coupe and Vert at the same time.
Changing tires and brakes will not come close here given the likely offerings from other manufacturers. At a minimum, we need a new motor (the previously rumored 8.7L?). Preferably the car also needs a DCT, aluminum frame, a more spacious cockpit and more forward-looking (not retro) styling. I voted with my wallet before purchasing my Gen IV new after owning many different vehicles. My next purchase will depend on the overall performance, looks and value of the car. I am hoping SRT re-designs the Gen V to fit the bill.
ViperSmith
Enthusiast
The Gen V isn't going to be "redesigned" to fit your image. What you see is pretty much it for the next few years. Now, the Gen VI - that is all up in the air. If the Gen V does well, those fun features maybe in the cards.
rw99
Enthusiast
You look at the performance the high-revving NA small block V10's generate and drool. Sure, there are MANY differences, most notably engineering and materials $$$$$, but it seems like the use of VVT could allow the 8.4 to grow some more power with another ~700 rpm. Huge difference? No, but maybe enough to generate that ~700 HP... we have plenty of torque.
chorps
Enthusiast
Buy the book! A lot of your questions are answered in there.
I spent $26 on it and I thought it was one of the best bang for the buck books I've gotten in a long while.
I spent $26 on it and I thought it was one of the best bang for the buck books I've gotten in a long while.
Personally i believe you can get away with a lot more when a car s sticker is mid 90s than high 140s.At 140k this car had BETTER be able to compete on ALL ASPECTS (NOT JUST TRACK NUMBERS )service ,interior fit finess ect ect ect .If every other car priced accordingly has alum frame ,dry sump oiling system ,carb fiber braking systems we must have them as well because technology DEFINATELY SELLS CARS ,esp
in the price strata were in now .The old time VCA NJ guys rember when i used to have events at my old restaurant .I learned REAL QUICK (LOL )that people will pay 25 bucks for a so so meal (STEAK )and come back for the value (service, atmosphere is good ect )Move the price of the steak to 50 bucks and that steak had better be fantastic or they will never come back
in the price strata were in now .The old time VCA NJ guys rember when i used to have events at my old restaurant .I learned REAL QUICK (LOL )that people will pay 25 bucks for a so so meal (STEAK )and come back for the value (service, atmosphere is good ect )Move the price of the steak to 50 bucks and that steak had better be fantastic or they will never come back
Those other V10's have a much smaller rotating and most also need rpms to achive max hp, not, unlike a S2000
troublemaker
Enthusiast
It would be interesting if SRT offered a model before the ACR that didn't need all the interior fluff the Gen5 got. I'm sure a set of race seats has to be cheaper that the factory seats, how much money could a buyer save if all the fancy interior was removed? Enough for a dry sump? I don't know but it seems that a pure performance model might actually be a viable business case. Make some high end brakes and soft tires as options. Have shock options available. I've said it before but a stripped down, lightweight, bare bones street legal car that can be purchased the old fashioned way would be cool. Buy it with 4 steel wheels and a set of skinny scrap tires that would just let it get to the new owners home, then end up in the trash. I know SRT was after the higher educated buyer with this car, but there are still the performance oriented buyers that are going to beat the crap out of it on a track. I would have had to pull quite a bit of resources together to buy a Gen5, but went with a pre Gen4 for its tuning capabilities for more than financial reasons.
LOL all SRT had to do was leave the car at the same pricepoint as the 4 and include the upgraded interior .Accorgingly buyers would not care if it didnt win every perf test or have every state of the art technologic feature .Like everything else in life it almost always comes down to money .With cars like the ZR-1 and GTR out there that offer equal to or better perf ( including a ton more tech features )for less money the GEN 5S got its hands full
