Air-Air Intercooler 4 Paxton

[aries]

Hey guys, just gauging the interest for people interested in an air to air intercooler for Paxton equipped cars. We all know how prone to heat soak the Viper gets with the current water to air heat exchanger, even when equipped with the DLM or other additional heat exchanger. Howard at AR Fabrication and I are talking about making one for my 2006 SRT10 Coupe and would like to get an idea who else might want one. Thanks

 

[plumcrazy]

are you tracking this car ?

ive never had ANY heat soak issues with mine. (DLM cooler and extra water capacity tank)

 

[NYC SNAKE]

Hey guys, just gauging the interest for people interested in an air to air intercooler for Paxton equipped cars. We all know how prone to heat soak the Viper gets with the current water to air heat exchanger, even when equipped with the DLM or other additional heat exchanger. Howard at AR Fabrication and I are talking about making one for my 2006 SRT10 Coupe and would like to get an idea who else might want one. Thanks

I'd be interested in a nice air to air depending on the bling effect, LOL and comparisons of back to back runs vs the water to air setup. I've always wanted a nice looking FMIC behind the grill of my snake. Let us know, Thank you!

 

[ViperPWR]

I would be interested for the right price.

My IAT does increase well beyond ambient temp after driving the car for awhile. This increases a lot more with running boost. I do have an added cooler and high flow pump on my Paxton kit.

My Vette is air to air and the IAT stays close to ambient temp during normal drives and recovers much quickly from spirited runs than the Viper. Different head unit, S-Trim Vortech pushing 12lbs.

I'm not sure how many people actually log IAT around town. Heat soak does happen on my Viper.

I would welcome an air to air intercooler option, especially when I turn the boost up past 8 lbs.

 

[Jroc]

Do it!!!!!

 

[GR8_ASP]

I would be interested for the right price.

My IAT does increase well beyond ambient temp after driving the car for awhile. This increases a lot more with running boost. I do have an added cooler and high flow pump on my Paxton kit.

My Vette is air to air and the IAT stays close to ambient temp during normal drives and recovers much quickly from spirited runs than the Viper. Different head unit, S-Trim Vortech pushing 12lbs.

I'm not sure how many people actually log IAT around town. Heat soak does happen on my Viper.

I would welcome an air to air intercooler option, especially when I turn the boost up past 8 lbs.

Agreed. Mine runs around 120 F on a typical 70-80 degree day when running steady state with no boost. Also with 2 heat exchangers and 2 pumps.

 

[AbsolutHank]

I'm still on the stock Paxton setup with my car and I'm dying for another option as no one is really super happy with whats available yet.

I think the FMIC would look kickass as an added bonus

 

[cash84]

Have a little thought about this, my buddy has a Honda s2000 that does have a Paxton on it but smaller, of course. He went air to air and lost ALOT of boost! Changed the pulley and barely brings it up. It has been leak tested etc. It did keep the IAT down but doesn't proved as much HP as when he swapped to water to air. Gained 3psi and added up around 55rwhp.

 

[plumcrazy]

you WILL lose boost and put more pressure on the crank snout.

im sure there are a few more reasons that the paxton tuners dont do Air/Air anymore..

 

[ViperGeorge]

I have a large custom heat exchanger but am running the stock Paxton pump. I've insulated the tank with that reflective stuff to keep engine heat away from the reservoir. IAT stays around ambient at all times over the road (I have a digital gauge in the air stream to the manifold). On the track (road course) it will creep up to about 125 when its hot outside. I did throw a CEL once at the track because of a high intake air temp code but it was like 90+ out and I had run the car on track for about 40 minutes. That track has some extremely long straights where the car was in boost for a long time. Interestingly enough the IAT gauge was only showing 130 degrees so I didn't think the car was actually all that hot.

I also run a 170 degree thermostat, NGK V-electrode spark plugs, with a DC Performance PCM tune. Water temp never goes above about 190 even on the track.

So while I might be interested in an Air to Air cooler I would want to know the impact on power output and IAT when on the track. I'm not all that familiar with Air to Air intercoolers. Why do they lower boost? And would they free up space in the engine compartment as a result of losing the reservoir?

 

[plumcrazy]

Takes hp to push air thru the small openings in air to air. The air to water is basically free flowing

 

[Simms]

What size core would he be using for the FMIC?

 

[ViperPWR]

Takes hp to push air thru the small openings in air to air. The air to water is basically free flowing

I guess a lot of that depends on the overall size of the intercooler and how it is layed out. There is a lot of room in the front of the radiator to mount a good size unit. You do see a similar restriction pushing air through the air to water units.

You would also have a very slight lag in boost do to the added volume of the tubing and intercooler itself. I don't think it would be noticable though.

My long term plan is to go air to air and use methonal injection to cool things down even more under boost. With running the **** on the drag strip, or around town, most actually see their IAT drop below ambient temp.

 

[GR8_ASP]

you WILL lose boost and put more pressure on the crank snout.

im sure there are a few more reasons that the paxton tuners dont do Air/Air anymore..

There is a good engineering reason to minimize the air volume between the supercharger and the throttle body. As engine speed changes the pressure of that volume constantly goes up and down. Because of the added volume, the change in pressure (boost) for any given supercharger speed will be lower, thus appearing as lower boost. Under steady state this would disappear, but when under boost how many of us are steady state?

 

[plumcrazy]

i was told the same car, same setup would make more power and more boost with air/water. and do it safer. thats why i switched from air/air to water....

GR8, english please....

 

[Larry Macedo]

I guess a lot of that depends on the overall size of the intercooler and how it is layed out. There is a lot of room in the front of the radiator to mount a good size unit. You do see a similar restriction pushing air through the air to water units.

You would also have a very slight lag in boost do to the added volume of the tubing and intercooler itself. I don't think it would be noticable though.

My long term plan is to go air to air and use methonal injection to cool things down even more under boost. With running the **** on the drag strip, or around town, most actually see their IAT drop below ambient temp.

It just so happens that I have an Air-to-Air FMIC and Water/**** in stock!

 

[vipzilla]

check with dlm he has done it both ways air to air is a no go on s/c vipers

 

[vipzilla]

and this fits great mutch larger charger and also i used a ford racing larger pump

 

[ViperPWR]

It just so happens that I have an Air-to-Air FMIC and Water/**** in stock!

Larry,

I'll send you a PM. Make that I would send you a PM if your box wasn't full... Email coming your way instead.

Last night (mid 70's) my IAT was setting at 95-96 driving down the highway. Around town last night it was a little over 100. I obviously need to change something.

 

[vipzilla]

any pics of this air to air thing !!!

 

[Larry Macedo]

and this fits great mutch larger charger and also i used a ford racing larger pump

I may be incorrect, but from the look of your PIC, it appears you have a larger Heat Exchanger V an actual Air-to-Air Intercooler.

 

[repiv]

I may be incorrect, but from the look of your PIC, it appears you have a larger Heat Exchanger V an actual Air-to-Air Intercooler.

isn't an intercooler actually a heat exchanger?

 

[vipzilla]

isn't an intercooler actually a heat exchanger?

yes this is a liquid heat exchanger thats what i was trying to explain you need this not a air to air

 

[ViperTuner]

Years ago we ran a Large SC on a Honda running 22psi with an Air - Air Ic for drag use and it didn't seem to lack anything that more boost or Cubic inches couldn't solve. I will admit liq-water is much better when used with ice water in a tank... But the pressure drop on these SC systems due to the extra length the air must travel through the intercooler to properly cool is much more significant than than a turbo. To a turbo 1-3 psi can be made up by adjusting the wastegate but with the SC the mechanical effects of a couple psi will increase chances of belt slippage and durability. The other thing that comes into play with a FMIC is the loss of engine cooling from it's placement. Now the need for a good radiator May need to be in the equation. I have some cool designs for a FMIC but would have to do some testing before I commit. Right now I have been datalogging AIT on the dyno with the liq system with the extra res, dlm exchanger and large pump. Once I get the car dialed in to redline I will throw a FMIC I have laying around on it for a quick test to see how the initial results are.

To see if it's really worth building.



Howard

 

[ViperPWR]

Years ago we ran a Large SC on a Honda running 22psi with an Air - Air Ic for drag use and it didn't seem to lack anything that more boost or Cubic inches couldn't solve. I will admit liq-water is much better when used with ice water in a tank... But the pressure drop on these SC systems due to the extra length the air must travel through the intercooler to properly cool is much more significant than than a turbo. To a turbo 1-3 psi can be made up by adjusting the wastegate but with the SC the mechanical effects of a couple psi will increase chances of belt slippage and durability. The other thing that comes into play with a FMIC is the loss of engine cooling from it's placement. Now the need for a good radiator May need to be in the equation. I have some cool designs for a FMIC but would have to do some testing before I commit. Right now I have been datalogging AIT on the dyno with the liq system with the extra res, dlm exchanger and large pump. Once I get the car dialed in to redline I will throw a FMIC I have laying around on it for a quick test to see how the initial results are.

To see if it's really worth building.



Howard

Standing by for the results

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

There is a good engineering reason to minimize the air volume between the supercharger and the throttle body. As engine speed changes the pressure of that volume constantly goes up and down. Because of the added volume, the change in pressure (boost) for any given supercharger speed will be lower, thus appearing as lower boost. Under steady state this would disappear, but when under boost how many of us are steady state?

i was told the same car, same setup would make more power and more boost with air/water. and do it safer. thats why i switched from air/air to water....

GR8, english please....

The blower has to "fill up" a larger heat exchanger with pressurized air before it can "fill up" the intake manifold. You boost pressure gauge will read low(er) until it catches up.

Really bad, simple version: two Aero-beds in series.

 

[ViperPWR]

The blower has to "fill up" a larger heat exchanger with pressurized air before it can "fill up" the intake manifold. You boost pressure gauge will read low(er) until it catches up.

Really bad, simple version: two Aero-beds in series.

Nothing a smaller pulley can't fix. I'm only at 8lbs right now, I'm sure the Paxton has a few more left in it.... I know more air makes more heat.

 

[Nine Ball]

Smaller pulley won't help if you incur more belt slippage. No such thing as free hp. I'm interested in an FMIC if it works better than an upgraded coolant heat exchanger and larger pump. Boost lag shouldn't be a huge concern on this blower, The NOVI can move a lot of air.

 

[aries]

Well a front mount intercooler is definatley needed for my car. We had the car on the dyno and even though it was a 50 degree day and had a huge fan in front of the car, the AIT climbed to 98 degrees past 5000rpm. Howard felt the water inside the intercooler and it was still cool, so that tells me that there is not enough surface area to cool that much air.

 

[ViperPWR]

Well a front mount intercooler is definatley needed for my car. We had the car on the dyno and even though it was a 50 degree day and had a huge fan in front of the car, the AIT climbed to 98 degrees past 5000rpm. Howard felt the water inside the intercooler and it was still cool, so that tells me that there is not enough surface area to cool that much air.

Interesting, it makes sense that the small surface area of the internal cooler would not have much time to cool the charge air rushing by under boost. I guess you have 2 cooling issues, the front mount cooler (which people upgrade) and the Paxton supplied internal cooler.

Something I learned yesturday from DLM, apparently the stock IAT sensor is not too accurate. You might try using an aftermarket IAT sensor to be sure the numbers you get are truely accurate.