Air Bag/Safety Belts

[Canyon707]

I removed my stock belts and installed 6 point belts. My question is this. Does removing the belt and disconnecting the the safety belt warning light sensor. Does this do something to the air bag sensor. I wouldn't think it would but, I am not sure. Any feed back would be helpful.

 

[rcl4668]

I removed my stock belts and installed 6 point belts. My question is this. Does removing the belt and disconnecting the the safety belt warning light sensor. Does this do something to the air bag sensor. I wouldn't think it would but, I am not sure. Any feed back would be helpful.

I know this does not really help since you already removed them but after installation of my 6-points I retained the 3-point belt and just put it on over the 6 points at driving schools. I do not know about airbag functionality but my concern would be voiding any warranty or creatinginsurance issues if you have an accident on the street or at the track and have had the 3-points removed.

/Rich

 

[propsail]

I've discussed this in another thread (check the "black box" thread). The short answer is yes, you will probably, #1, have warranty issues if you get in a crash. #2: the airbag is a supplemental device that works dependent on seat belt usage. The computer will not recognize the fact that you are wearing your harness and likely deploy the airbag with that much greater force and it will deploy in lower speed collisions.

Hope this helps.

~Craig

 

[Steve-Indy]

First, one might ask: what year is your Viper?

Next...is this Viper strictly for off road/track usage??

If NOT, then you need to realize that you and your passenger are more at risk riding in a car whose belts are NOT DOT compliant, and if you are using said six-point system, you are more likely to suffer a cervical spine injury as your new system does not have pre-tensioners that fire in a collision AND because your torso is too "bound down" while your head is too free which can actually cause a cranio-cervical dislocation (casually known as "an internal decapitation" in certain circles)...UNLESS, of course you are driving on the street in a HANS device!!!

Finally you MAY negate or jeopardize your own medical coverage when the above situation is indeed discovered (as it WILL be by the forensic engineer hired by YOUR insurance company to help them duck or minimize their payment should you survive) and, expose yourself (or your estate) even further to the attorney(s) hired by your passenger or his/her estate AND their insurance company.

FURTHER food for thought comes from a related post that I made a few months ago:

"REMEMBER: A 5-6 point harness system..."induces strong rebounds on the head, owing to the fact that the shoulder straps stop the forward motion of the torso too fast"...as reported from a biomechanical lab study in Sweeden by Ottoson et al in the '80's.

As Panin et al published in Aviation Space Envir. Medicine in 2001..."Futhermore, the frequent necessity of supporting added mass above the shoulders(e.g., crash helmet...) can magnify the moment of inertia of the head"..."the population is at risk for injury due to such forces". Noting that "various methods of fixation of the head to prevent cervical injury are described in the literature."...hence my HANS recommendation !!

Steve Olvey published on this subject in "Neurosurgery" a couple of years back. Many here in Indy may recall that Steve graduated from the IU Med School in 1969, went to Methodist hospital and co-founded the Lifeline System and "matured" the whole area of trauma management for the Speedway...and later CART. One of Steve's recent concerns is gathering GOOD data on helmeted sports injuries to better understand (and thus prevent and/or minimize) not only the acute massive injuries, but also the long term effects of the lesser injuries such as repetitive concussions.

With these things in mind, I HOPE more will look carefully at the equipment that they choose...and be willing to make the necessary investment in their own future.

Have fun...BUT, be SAFE !!!!"

 

[mbccenter]

The short version is yes they will set off the light. They are all contected. You can leave them in the car and strap them in behind the seat and this will keep the light off.

 

[Canyon707]

Well interesting info. I think I will put my stock belts back in the car. A nice weekend project. I had no idea about this but, I am sure glad I asked. Thanks All for the info.

 

[ulllose]

Let me chime in on this............... I would think a 6-point harness would be much better than a 3 point stock seat belt?????????? Am I wrong?
Propsail-------Are you sure about the air bag deploying at a different speed depending on if your are or not wearing your seat belt. I find that to be alittle fishy (i really don't know)

 

[rcl4668]

Let me chime in on this............... I would think a 6-point harness would be much better than a 3 point stock seat belt?????????? Am I wrong?
Propsail-------Are you sure about the air bag deploying at a different speed depending on if your are or not wearing your seat belt. I find that to be alittle fishy (i really don't know)

See the quote from Steve-Indy above: The reality is that a six point system will keep your torso strapped down tight but that -- without a HANS device -- this means your head and neck will be whipped around with eve more force during an impact which can cause the cervical dislocation. Ironically, this will be even more pronounced if you add the extra weight of a helmet to your head ad neck.

At track days I do wear a HANS device with my six points for this very reason. On the street, however, I just go with my 3-point OEM seatbelt as it was designed for use on the street and in conjunction with the airbag.

 

[propsail]

Let me chime in on this............... I would think a 6-point harness would be much better than a 3 point stock seat belt?????????? Am I wrong?
Propsail-------Are you sure about the air bag deploying at a different speed depending on if your are or not wearing your seat belt. I find that to be alittle fishy (i really don't know)

I'll explain. The airbag works in 2 stages. If the computer senses a crash worthy of deployment, it will ask itself if the seatbelt switch is "on" (meaning fastened). If it is, the computer may decide that you are sufficiently protected, and may not deploy the bags at all if the collision is not severe enough. If the bag was to deploy anyway because of the severity of the crash, the first stage will blow after the seatbelt pre-tensioner fires to cinch down the seatbelt. If it senses you are not belted, the 2nd stage will fire, thus a faster, harder deployment to keep you from hitting the steering wheel. Hope this helps. Nothing fishy about it.
~Craig

 

[Canyon707]

I have to say one thing here. I am glad I asked. There are a lot of Vipers drivers that didn't know this. I hope they read it. I hope to see more input here.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Canyon707, I would also add that in my own experience (one of our Vipers has a 5 point harness and one a 6 point ) a 5 or 6 point harness worn on the highway REALLY limits one's general ability to "glance about" before making a move. On the track, a glance in the mirrors usually works...and is the only real option when strapped to the seat. BUT, on a 4-6-8-10 lane highway, that extra stretch-and-look ability that a proper 3 point allows may save your skin.

I'll leave the on-board electronics of these systems to those in the know

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Canyon707, I would also add that in my own experience (one of our Vipers has a 5 point harness and one a 6 point ) a 5 or 6 point harness worn on the highway REALLY limits one's general ability to "glance about" before making a move. On the track, a glance in the mirrors usually works...and is the only real option when strapped to the seat. BUT, on a 4-6-8-10 lane highway, that extra stretch-and-look ability that a proper 3 point allows may save your skin.

I'll leave the on-board electronics of these systems to those in the know

I dunno Steve. With side mirrors properly positioned to see the blind spot* I don't find any need to turn my head much. But everybody's different.


*it's amazing how many folks don't realize that is what the side mirrors are for.

 

[Canyon707]

Sure would like to here what Jon B. has to say about this. Read his blogs and its a bit different. Jon take the floor please......

 

[Canyon707]

Canyon707, I would also add that in my own experience (one of our Vipers has a 5 point harness and one a 6 point ) a 5 or 6 point harness worn on the highway REALLY limits one's general ability to "glance about" before making a move. On the track, a glance in the mirrors usually works...and is the only real option when strapped to the seat. BUT, on a 4-6-8-10 lane highway, that extra stretch-and-look ability that a proper 3 point allows may save your skin.

I'll leave the on-board electronics of these systems to those in the know

I went to a few places that have some knowledge on this and most said to me there better than a three point harness. I by no means am saying your incorrect I was told that the biggest issue is side impact. The race car drivers I spoke with feel the three point belt is DOT approved because its factory installed. The Viper is set up for 6 point harnesses. I never wear it tight anyway. The Dodge dealer told me that the air bags deploy no matter if the belt is on or off and there is only a sensor on the driver side belt but the air bag sensors are in the front of the car. All I am trying to do is get the real facts here. There are hundreds of Vipers and other cars that are using 6 or 5 point belts and I have not seen any data either way. Thanks for your input. I read Jon B blogs on this and he also wears his harness in the street as well. Lets talk more on this. I am concerned for my safety and my passengers. Thanks

 

[rcl4668]

I went to a few places that have some knowledge on this and most said to me there better than a three point harness. I by no means am saying your incorrect I was told that the biggest issue is side impact. The race car drivers I spoke with feel the three point belt is DOT approved because its factory installed. The Viper is set up for 6 point harnesses. I never wear it tight anyway. The Dodge dealer told me that the air bags deploy no matter if the belt is on or off and there is only a sensor on the driver side belt but the air bag sensors are in the front of the car. All I am trying to do is get the real facts here. There are hundreds of Vipers and other cars that are using 6 or 5 point belts and I have not seen any data either way. Thanks for your input. I read Jon B blogs on this and he also wears his harness in the street as well. Lets talk more on this. I am concerned for my safety and my passengers. Thanks

Jon B can chime in here if his recollection is different but I asked him a similar question about wearing the 6-points on the street. My recollection is that Jon said he sometimes does it but wears the 6-points somewhat loosely to allow the torso to move in an impact and reduce the likelihood of a cervical dislocation. i believ ehe said he also wears the 3-point in conjunction with the 6-point.

 

[Canyon707]

Bottom line here for me. I put the stock belts back in the car. Removed the 6 point. 2 hour job Boom done. Interesting info here and thanks for everyones input. I surely appreicate the comments.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Canyon707...my final, non argumentive answer is "who REALLY knows"???... LEAST OF ALL ME... as I have yet to find a well designed study with reproducible , confirmed, and statistically significant data that has been peer reviewed MATCHING "loosely worn" 6-point harnesses with "controls" using the current OEM supplied 3-point belt systems . I think that if a reasonable person would read through the medical/racing/aerospace articles (and their associated bibliographies) that I referenced earlier in this thread, one would be on the right tract to making one's OWN risk-benefit analysis (for self, passenger, and heirs).

I think that it is both unwise and unfair to expect our OLD FRIEND JonB to put his own, personal seat-belt preferences for highway/street usage (IF INDEED THEY ARE AT ODDS with OEM equipment utilization) into print here since he could be somewhat at risk as he is a well known Viper Guru AND respected harness VENDOR...especially in our rather litigious country.

That said, you can wander even further into the science behind some of my own personal and CASUAL advice by a little "light reading"... here is a good place to START:

1. " Forensic Biomechanics: Using Medical Records to Study Injury Mechanisms" by Jeffrey A. Pike, 2008 SAE

2. "Safety: Rear Impact, Rollover, Side Impact, Crashworthiness, Air Bags and Bumper Systems", 2007 SAE

3. "Event Data Recorders: A Decade of Innovation" by H. Clay Gabler et al, 2008 SAE

Glad you did re-install the belts for now...and I'm happy that we got so many great opinions here. If I am WRONG, then I will be even better off in the long run when someone corrects my aberrant thinking as engineer, I'm NOT...though medical I AM.

Have a SAFE and HAPPY HOLIDAY SEASON !!!

 

[Canyon707]

Steve, Like I mentioned before. I am glad I asked. I learned a lot here. I hope others did as well. It's one of the best things about being in this club. All you have to do here is ask. I just put the seats in this evening.
Thanks again Steve
Chris Canyon

 

[Grant]

I don't mean to doubt Steve-Indy's knowledge of this area, but I'd bet 6-points without a HANS device are better than 3-points plus airbags in certain circumstances, and worse in others. It doesn't surprise me that in a frontal collision, the factory safety equipment works better.

I also don't have problems checking my mirrors and blind-spot with harnesses on, though I usually use a 3-point on the street.

On the track, I have no doubt a 5 or 6-point is safer, even without a HANS. It makes you that much less likely to crash because you aren't sliding all over the place. I'd really prefer a bucket seat with the harnesses, but racing seats my size don't seem to fit in Vipers