MichaelP
Enthusiast
Ok now you have my curiousity peaked.
What many amazing products are you talking about?
What many amazing products are you talking about?
AMSOIL vs Mobil-1
- Thread starter Paolo Castellano
- Start date
Have been reading widely on this issue for some time...and having oil analysis done on our Vipers with each change. Must admit that Tom and Ron have made good case for Mobil Delvac 1...though Wife and I still use Mobil 1 10w30...wish that I really knew the answer !!!
You may be interested to see what is being said on the subject by the "petro polks" (chem. eng.'s, perto chem.'s, and tribologists) at a website called:
BOBISTHEOILGUY EDIT: I can't get this hyperlink to work...just type in the name the ususl way...SORRY
You may be interested to see what is being said on the subject by the "petro polks" (chem. eng.'s, perto chem.'s, and tribologists) at a website called:
BOBISTHEOILGUY EDIT: I can't get this hyperlink to work...just type in the name the ususl way...SORRY
Daffy Duck Viper
Enthusiast
All though I can understand that my previous post has peaked your interest in amazing products, I don't want to take this discussion any further from it's original topic than it has already gone. After all, it was originally about AMSOIL vs Mobil-1. Then into the mix came several other oils, understandably - Oil Extreme being the last. The fact that I will not list here the amazing products that I've had the privilege of discovering over the years does not mean they do not exist. So please don't even go there. Not listing amazing products that I know about does not disprove the point I have made in my previous post.
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Steve 00RT/10
Enthusiast
With no offense meant, what kind of logical or rational reasoning was used for this conclusion? The analysis numbers were posted and interpreted. In addition to posting better numbers than Mobil 1, it was comparable to ****** Mobil Delvac and beat it in a few numbers with 6000 miles on it. (more additives) What more could one do to prove a point?
I find it somewhat amusing that a company like Amsoil, which was the first API rated synthetic on the market in 1972, roughly 4 years before Mobil 1 came out, would be held in such extreme distrust by many on this forum. IMO, while there is certainly nothing wrong with Mobil 1, marketing and money have far more to do with the reason it's in our cars than it's being the best.
Now there is a new product out there--Oil Extreme. Looks interesting. If he's out there, I would like Tom to throw his 2 cents in on this technology. With a quick trip to their web site, I didn't see any product warranty information. Amsoil has always had a 100% money back guarantee on any damage caused by their products--it's never been used to date. Oil Extreme also appears to be quite expensive and only talks of doubling the oil change interval to 6000 miles. For a Viper, with filter, you're looking at $110 per change with their oil plus you'll have to buy an extra bottle of additive at $43.90 delivered. If you just buy the additive, you would need 2-16 oz.bottles for starters for an $88 dollar total.
In a regular passenger car under normal driving conditions, the recommended drain interval for Amsoil Series 2000 oil is 35,000 miles(changing filters 2-3 times). I routinely run my 2001 GMC pick up (102K miles by me) 20 to 25,000 miles between changes. Of course you must keep all filtration media clean to achieve this longevity. I have the oil analyzed and it comes back OK. That's just with regular 10W-30 synthetic--not the Series 2000. I recently did some PM work on my 1990 SHO with 137K miles. A compression check showed between 210 and 215 PSI.in all cylinders. It's had Amsoil in it since I bought it at 65K miles. Believe me, I have run that engine much harder than the Viper, for many thousand miles......and I don't baby the Viper.
Steve
MichaelP
Enthusiast
Good points. Probably better if you just start a new thread in Off Topic or email me. Thanks
MichaelP
Enthusiast
I don't distrust Amsoil just figure that ALOT of VIpers have done well on Mobile 1 so for me I will stick with it.
I would think Amsoil is a good substitute but personally just don't want to risk it.
I would think Amsoil is a good substitute but personally just don't want to risk it.
Daffy Duck Viper
Enthusiast
I would have to say that the kind of logical or rational reasoning I used was based on NOT having read the numbers you said were posted. I must have missed that post. I must have missed more than one post somewhere because I don't recall having read anything on Mobil Delvac, just Mobil-1. Not surprising though, since there were SO many posts made on the subject of AMSOIL vs Mobil-1. So, no offense taken. It's just the way things happen on here sometimes. Can't know everything. And can't know something that I did not know I was supposed to have known. How's that for logical apples? *chuckle* Anyway, thanks for bringing this to my attention. Now I know that there are some posts out there that I have missed regarding this subject. I'll try to find them and read them.
Regarding the rest of what you wrote. You bring up some good points.
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Torquemonster
Enthusiast
I'll answer some specific questions because they were asked of me - before i do this let me cleara few things up,.and make it very clear where i stand.
This thread was about Mobil One vs Amsoil, not Oil Extreme.
I mentioned Oil Extreme only because the thread diversified into people saying what good things they had found in this oil or that... and I wanted to share what I and others have experienced with Oil Extreme. I know what it is and that there are certain qualities none of the other oils can match.
The way certain molecules (I'm not going to get technical)are engineered at a molecular level is beyond what the big oil compnaies are able to duplicate at this point in time. They will catch up in time as it's an issue that has confounded them for decades. The ex NASA scientist who did this also invented the rocket fuel NASA now use and saved 30% in fuel by doing so on each launch.
So why didn't he sell the oil break-thru to the big Oil Companies and make a fortune? They screwed him the last time - he wasn't going to let it happen again. Money does not drive everyone - believe it or not. He actually sold it to 2 small cmpanies - one was Oil Extreme - which started as MLM, then changed... the other I have not been able to find out - it MIGHT be Royal Purple, but I have no clue.
I was asked to speak to the Annual National Conference of Engine Builders about oil technology - specifically the scientific breakthru in Oil Extreme. I did this not because I had a vested interest, but as a favour to a friend and I had the technical information - which I have since handed over to the person I arranged to take on the agency.
There's sme background - now... no offense to anyone
but...
1) I do not care what any of you guys run in your Vipers - other than I hope you run a good quality oil. That should dispel any idea I'm trying to pedal something or sell anything. You could buy $1 million of Oil Extreme and I wouldn't make a cent - so there's no vested interest other than I know how good it is and that there are internationally acclaimed engine builders using it quietly. If a minor oil company product worries you - use Mobil like the factory says.
2) I make no claims from a marketing brochure. If I claim anything - it's a fact I've personally tested or can verify independently... I'm not interested in defending it - it's for your benefit not mine I shared the info - what you do with it is up to you.
Now that is sorted out - here's the answers to the questions:
Yes Joe - no changes other than the oil to Oil Extreme saved thousands of dollars in replacing parts - because they no longer wore out.
Why don't all teams use it then?
If the technology was owned by Mobil etc - it would be pretty universal in racing... it isn't, and many will not use it because fot he same reasons you guys are to scared to, they have not heard of it, OR most commonly - if you look closely at most top racing teams you'll notice an Oil Company as a sponsor. Correct?
Well you can trust me that if they sponsor your car and you try to add something from a competitors product into theirs - your free oil and any money deal is OFF! You can understand that - but it doesn't help the racer who just wants to go faster and replace less parts.
There are some racers using it - Nemcheck never got pole until he started using it the first season. Will it ever be maintstream? Probably not... and if I were a racer - I'd think that was good - because no matter how even the class - I know I'd always have and edge in that at least - in less maintenance if nothing else.
re Mobil one. Stock turbocharged Subaru RS Wagon with 220hp 2 litre flat 4 with 16v, twin cam got 25mpg on highway driving with Mobil One 15W/50. After modifying car to around 330hp - no change in economy at cruise.
Changed to Mobil One 0W/40 and went to 28mpg.
Added Oil Extreme and went to 33mpg. Car also ran 250kph (156mph), did 13.6 at 103mph on 1/4 - not bad for family wagon 4 cylinder.
Those cars invariably get a bit noisy in the valve train - mine had one noisy tappet. It went quiet after Oil Extreme. I later fitted WRX heads and valvetrain which extended rpm range.
re marketing gimmics - yeah I know... hundreds of them.... but here's a concept to consider - one or two actually work as well as claimed.
Govt's, big business etc - there's many things they could do to save millions of dollars. I've not been into a small to medium company yet i can't add six figures to the bottom line within a short time... in the big ones - 7 figures is not difficult. In my experience the bigger the corporation or virtaully all govt agencies - are extremely UNENTREPRENURIAL - and they invariably take the safe road to cover their butts rather than experiment to try new things (unless they've developed it in-house).... this leaves it to the smaller and open minded firms to start new technologies.... heard of the "S" curve? If you understand the S curve - it'll tell you all you need to know. Gotta go.... happy Vipering all!
This thread was about Mobil One vs Amsoil, not Oil Extreme.
I mentioned Oil Extreme only because the thread diversified into people saying what good things they had found in this oil or that... and I wanted to share what I and others have experienced with Oil Extreme. I know what it is and that there are certain qualities none of the other oils can match.
The way certain molecules (I'm not going to get technical)are engineered at a molecular level is beyond what the big oil compnaies are able to duplicate at this point in time. They will catch up in time as it's an issue that has confounded them for decades. The ex NASA scientist who did this also invented the rocket fuel NASA now use and saved 30% in fuel by doing so on each launch.
So why didn't he sell the oil break-thru to the big Oil Companies and make a fortune? They screwed him the last time - he wasn't going to let it happen again. Money does not drive everyone - believe it or not. He actually sold it to 2 small cmpanies - one was Oil Extreme - which started as MLM, then changed... the other I have not been able to find out - it MIGHT be Royal Purple, but I have no clue.
I was asked to speak to the Annual National Conference of Engine Builders about oil technology - specifically the scientific breakthru in Oil Extreme. I did this not because I had a vested interest, but as a favour to a friend and I had the technical information - which I have since handed over to the person I arranged to take on the agency.
There's sme background - now... no offense to anyone
but...1) I do not care what any of you guys run in your Vipers - other than I hope you run a good quality oil. That should dispel any idea I'm trying to pedal something or sell anything. You could buy $1 million of Oil Extreme and I wouldn't make a cent - so there's no vested interest other than I know how good it is and that there are internationally acclaimed engine builders using it quietly. If a minor oil company product worries you - use Mobil like the factory says.
2) I make no claims from a marketing brochure. If I claim anything - it's a fact I've personally tested or can verify independently... I'm not interested in defending it - it's for your benefit not mine I shared the info - what you do with it is up to you.
Now that is sorted out
- here's the answers to the questions:Yes Joe - no changes other than the oil to Oil Extreme saved thousands of dollars in replacing parts - because they no longer wore out.
Why don't all teams use it then?
If the technology was owned by Mobil etc - it would be pretty universal in racing... it isn't, and many will not use it because fot he same reasons you guys are to scared to, they have not heard of it, OR most commonly - if you look closely at most top racing teams you'll notice an Oil Company as a sponsor. Correct?
Well you can trust me that if they sponsor your car and you try to add something from a competitors product into theirs - your free oil and any money deal is OFF! You can understand that - but it doesn't help the racer who just wants to go faster and replace less parts.
There are some racers using it - Nemcheck never got pole until he started using it the first season. Will it ever be maintstream? Probably not... and if I were a racer - I'd think that was good - because no matter how even the class - I know I'd always have and edge in that at least - in less maintenance if nothing else.
re Mobil one. Stock turbocharged Subaru RS Wagon with 220hp 2 litre flat 4 with 16v, twin cam got 25mpg on highway driving with Mobil One 15W/50. After modifying car to around 330hp - no change in economy at cruise.
Changed to Mobil One 0W/40 and went to 28mpg.
Added Oil Extreme and went to 33mpg. Car also ran 250kph (156mph), did 13.6 at 103mph on 1/4 - not bad for family wagon 4 cylinder.
Those cars invariably get a bit noisy in the valve train - mine had one noisy tappet. It went quiet after Oil Extreme. I later fitted WRX heads and valvetrain which extended rpm range.
re marketing gimmics - yeah I know... hundreds of them.... but here's a concept to consider - one or two actually work as well as claimed.
Govt's, big business etc - there's many things they could do to save millions of dollars. I've not been into a small to medium company yet i can't add six figures to the bottom line within a short time... in the big ones - 7 figures is not difficult. In my experience the bigger the corporation or virtaully all govt agencies - are extremely UNENTREPRENURIAL - and they invariably take the safe road to cover their butts rather than experiment to try new things (unless they've developed it in-house).... this leaves it to the smaller and open minded firms to start new technologies.... heard of the "S" curve? If you understand the S curve - it'll tell you all you need to know. Gotta go.... happy Vipering all!
Hmmmmm....
Someone mentioned Royal Purple earlier, and no one jumped in.
Over in Corvette land there's always a small cluster group of RP and Redline faithful howling the praises of both.
No Viper users? Or have they just looked at the title of this thread and said "he we go again"!
Cheers!
Someone mentioned Royal Purple earlier, and no one jumped in.
Over in Corvette land there's always a small cluster group of RP and Redline faithful howling the praises of both.
No Viper users? Or have they just looked at the title of this thread and said "he we go again"!
Cheers!
joe117
Enthusiast
You said,
"no changes other than the oil to Oil Extreme saved thousands of dollars in replacing parts - because they no longer wore out."
What I questioned was your claim that this oil saved you $2k each race.
"They screwed him the last time - he wasn't going to let it happen again."
A typical claim from the miracle products is that the big corps. want to somehow hide the new product from the public.
I'm not saying that you are making money from this oil and I'm not saying that you don't really believe that it is a miracle.
I'm saying that if the claims were true, it would be used by everyone everywhere.
The US Army just made a run through the desert in Iraq, hundreds of vehicles, hundreds of miles. All of these were supplied with fuel by a long supply train. All of this is figured and planned by people who are very smart and very technical. If the US Army found that their tanks would get better mpg with this product, they would use it.
If this was real, military planers all over the world would use it. China, India, Israel, are these guys just too backward? Are they just blind to this miracle?
"no changes other than the oil to Oil Extreme saved thousands of dollars in replacing parts - because they no longer wore out."
What I questioned was your claim that this oil saved you $2k each race.
"They screwed him the last time - he wasn't going to let it happen again."
A typical claim from the miracle products is that the big corps. want to somehow hide the new product from the public.
I'm not saying that you are making money from this oil and I'm not saying that you don't really believe that it is a miracle.
I'm saying that if the claims were true, it would be used by everyone everywhere.
The US Army just made a run through the desert in Iraq, hundreds of vehicles, hundreds of miles. All of these were supplied with fuel by a long supply train. All of this is figured and planned by people who are very smart and very technical. If the US Army found that their tanks would get better mpg with this product, they would use it.
If this was real, military planers all over the world would use it. China, India, Israel, are these guys just too backward? Are they just blind to this miracle?
Blah, Blah, Blah. Sorry but that is my initial thought to a comment that so and so, who developed rocket fuel, has a new profound product that blah, blah, blah.
I know that sounds crazy. But so does the story reported above. First off. Rocket fuel was developed over 50 years ago. Doubtful that one of the original scientists is the one behind this gimmick. Check the following link for the facts behind rocket fuel creation.NASA LARC Research Document BTW, if you prefer to discuss liquid rocket fuels Dr. Goddard back in 1928 was the first to develop the First Liquid Fueled Rocket Note also that a new rocket fuel was just developed as reported in the January 2003 NASA News NASA News . My uncle, James Hansen, is Director of the Goddard Institute for Space Studies James Hansen and am sure would be able to provide more information on your "scientist" if you gave a name.
Another aspect that escapes me. How could a scientist, who is trained in the need for laboratory verification of theories, use people like you as the verification method. I also cannot understand why something as important as this is not patented, to protect the inventor, and documented.
I can say that an OEM would do almost anything to locate and hold rights/interests to a discovery that provides 20% improvement in fuel economy. To say they would not do so because of Big Oil is ridiculous. The industry has done an enormous amount of testing to validate the benefits of reduced oil viscocity for efficiency gains, and to verify that engine longevity is not adversely impacted. You may have noted that OEM oil recommendations have shifted downward from 10w-30 over the past few years. That is primarily for increased fuel economy, though nowhere near your stated 20% increase.
Now for your suburu. The ultimate test ground. Now as you state you recorded almost a 20% increase in fuel economy using this new oil. Now, that being true I would expect that you could take your suburu, or any other vehicle of your choice, place it on a chassis dynamometer and record the torque and horsepower output in back to back to back tests between this amazing oil and another product such as Mobil 1. That 20% increase in fuel economy must translate into an increase in performance as the only way it could improve fuel economy is by decreasing mechanical friction. Unless of course you are going to explain that it also changes the chemistry of combustion. Another, more simplistic test that does not require the use of a dynamometer (only for manual transmission vehicles), is as follows. With the vehicle at full operating temperature find a relatively long straight flat stretch of road. Motor up to say 70 mph. Press in the clutch. Turn off the engine. Place the shifter in fourth gear (to minimize transmission friction effects) and go to WOT (gas pedal to the floor). Engage the clutch at precisely 60 mph and measure the time until the speed reduces to 10 mph. Now do this in both directions. Change your oil and repeat. Change back to the original oil and repeat again. Now compare results. A 20% friction reduction should be very easy to document with this unscientific test.
Now you can write me off as a critic and continue to state your unsustantiated claims. But as an engineer I have a policy that information has to be proven, by clear and unrefutable testing, before it can be stated as fact.
I know that sounds crazy. But so does the story reported above. First off. Rocket fuel was developed over 50 years ago. Doubtful that one of the original scientists is the one behind this gimmick. Check the following link for the facts behind rocket fuel creation.NASA LARC Research Document BTW, if you prefer to discuss liquid rocket fuels Dr. Goddard back in 1928 was the first to develop the First Liquid Fueled Rocket Note also that a new rocket fuel was just developed as reported in the January 2003 NASA News NASA News . My uncle, James Hansen, is Director of the Goddard Institute for Space Studies James Hansen and am sure would be able to provide more information on your "scientist" if you gave a name.
Another aspect that escapes me. How could a scientist, who is trained in the need for laboratory verification of theories, use people like you as the verification method. I also cannot understand why something as important as this is not patented, to protect the inventor, and documented.
I can say that an OEM would do almost anything to locate and hold rights/interests to a discovery that provides 20% improvement in fuel economy. To say they would not do so because of Big Oil is ridiculous. The industry has done an enormous amount of testing to validate the benefits of reduced oil viscocity for efficiency gains, and to verify that engine longevity is not adversely impacted. You may have noted that OEM oil recommendations have shifted downward from 10w-30 over the past few years. That is primarily for increased fuel economy, though nowhere near your stated 20% increase.
Now for your suburu. The ultimate test ground. Now as you state you recorded almost a 20% increase in fuel economy using this new oil. Now, that being true I would expect that you could take your suburu, or any other vehicle of your choice, place it on a chassis dynamometer and record the torque and horsepower output in back to back to back tests between this amazing oil and another product such as Mobil 1. That 20% increase in fuel economy must translate into an increase in performance as the only way it could improve fuel economy is by decreasing mechanical friction. Unless of course you are going to explain that it also changes the chemistry of combustion. Another, more simplistic test that does not require the use of a dynamometer (only for manual transmission vehicles), is as follows. With the vehicle at full operating temperature find a relatively long straight flat stretch of road. Motor up to say 70 mph. Press in the clutch. Turn off the engine. Place the shifter in fourth gear (to minimize transmission friction effects) and go to WOT (gas pedal to the floor). Engage the clutch at precisely 60 mph and measure the time until the speed reduces to 10 mph. Now do this in both directions. Change your oil and repeat. Change back to the original oil and repeat again. Now compare results. A 20% friction reduction should be very easy to document with this unscientific test.
Now you can write me off as a critic and continue to state your unsustantiated claims. But as an engineer I have a policy that information has to be proven, by clear and unrefutable testing, before it can be stated as fact.
Daffy Duck Viper
Enthusiast
Sorry, that's just simply not true. The general public is stupid. And the government is definitely stupid. They fallow the pack. They take the tried and true path. They don't take risks. They believe what they are told. Et cetera, et cetera. There are so many different examples that prove this, it ain't even funny.
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joe117
Enthusiast
Daffy Duck Viper,
There you go again,
"I have experienced many amazing products out there that the world at large does not use."
Of course you couldn't come up with any when you were asked.
Now you claim,
"the government is definitely stupid" "There are so many different examples that prove this, it ain't even funny."
Give me some examples of how stupid the Army is when it comes to their tanks and trucks. Tell me about any technical or mechanical mistakes being made by any of the service branches.
Why don't you comment on the post by Viper_SRT? He points out that the product would have to increase output power in order to increase economy by 20%
You, for some reason want to believe that this product will do things that everyone wants, more power, more mpg, longer oil change interval and less wear on engine parts.
But, everyone is too stupid to use the product. Please tell me how this would happen.
There you go again,
"I have experienced many amazing products out there that the world at large does not use."
Of course you couldn't come up with any when you were asked.
Now you claim,
"the government is definitely stupid" "There are so many different examples that prove this, it ain't even funny."
Give me some examples of how stupid the Army is when it comes to their tanks and trucks. Tell me about any technical or mechanical mistakes being made by any of the service branches.
Why don't you comment on the post by Viper_SRT? He points out that the product would have to increase output power in order to increase economy by 20%
You, for some reason want to believe that this product will do things that everyone wants, more power, more mpg, longer oil change interval and less wear on engine parts.
But, everyone is too stupid to use the product. Please tell me how this would happen.
joe117
Enthusiast
Daffy Duck Viper,
The skip shift feature on your Viper is a fuel economy device. DC and GM use these to pick up a little more mpg. Do you think they ever get any complaints about that feature? If they could do the same thing by simply adding some oil additive, why not do that?
Why wouldn't Honda and Toyota use this oil in their high mpg cars that are fighting for sales right now? Do you think that those companies would pass up a chance to get 20% more mpg?
The skip shift feature on your Viper is a fuel economy device. DC and GM use these to pick up a little more mpg. Do you think they ever get any complaints about that feature? If they could do the same thing by simply adding some oil additive, why not do that?
Why wouldn't Honda and Toyota use this oil in their high mpg cars that are fighting for sales right now? Do you think that those companies would pass up a chance to get 20% more mpg?
Daffy Duck Viper
Enthusiast
Hey, you can attack and argue this all you want, but it is your opinion vs. my opinion. I believe what I believe, because of what I've experienced. You believe what you believe because of what you've experienced. I think you're just going to have to give it a rest there, buddy. Agree to disagree. Move on. Let it go. I know what I know. You know what you know. The End.
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Torquemonster
Enthusiast
Ok guys - this is getting hysterical
some good questions being asked - but the answers some will never like...
That's ok - we're all friends here... so its all in good fun.... but...
Listen - why can't we all have our own fusion nuclear power packs - its clean, they'd last virtually forever, and provide almost unlimited power.... bla bla - several labs have cracked this.... or didn't you know that.... ooops... the naughty press didn't tell us.... I'm sorry.. but several labs around the world have created fusion - but don't hold your breath that you and I will ever benefit from it.
Remember the old flight backpacks we saw in the movies where you could just put it on and fly around? Amazing - very reliable and controllable too.... wonder why we never see them anymore? A little birdy told me they use nuclear energy for power... NAH!!!! Impossible - it'd just have been rocket fuel... hope it didn't burn their legs off! Could have been compressed air? yeah - that's it!
Top airforce fighter planes can reach 2200mph?
Oh really?
Well - what if I were to tell you that is a "slight" under-estimate - by a very large factor! Darn - that press just didn't get to hear about that I guess.... it's only those silly airforce pilots who aren't supposed to talk anyway that know... and a few engineers and other silly people who know nothing.
What about Area 51... hahaha.... yeah it doesn't exist either.
Or does it?
I met an acquaintence (we were both speaking at a forum) who was an expert in quantum physics and electronics. He was involved in counter intelligence during the cold war - working behind the Iron Curtain for many years undetected (working for NSA).... boy did he have some stories away from the crowds.... anyway - I showed him a plan for a flying saucer I had from a retired USAF officer who had worked in a top secret base (that doesn't exist).
This guy looked at it. He's no dummy - he had pioneered the electronic control box whose derivative now controlls virtually all commercial jets, he was no ordinary spy. I waited for him to tell me it was BS - just a fake. Instead he looked at me right in the eye and said "This will work!" Then he wanted my book with the plan in it - which I gave him. He wanted to build him a model for fun.
Proof? nope - never heard from him again.... but this was one very bright fellow who had forgotten more about physics and electrical energy, magnetism etc than I'll ever know. But let's put that one way out left-field.... as being say "interesting".
Then there are all the water engines that "don't exist" (won't go there), the gas vaporiser equipped cars that don't work so the technology doesn't exist (oops... built one of those - it worked! I just didn't have the few million I needed to make it commercial and fight all the legal anti-patent battles with the big corps who own them and don't want me or others to muscle in here). Oh yes and the PFI engine - that ran a catalyst that caused the 60% pure hydrogen peroxide to react and mix with the incoming air/fuel into the engine for some "interesting" results.... no doesn't exist either (oops - world beating snow mobile racers run them... now why don't we hear about this? gee I wonder - must be an oversight - and the 2 Swedish brothers who perfected it had to run into hiding from the Oil Companies who were loving them to death - it wasn't harrassment - no, no - that would mean consipiracy - and we all know that is a load of rubbish - i mean multi-billion dollar companies are philanthripists at heart - they'd never do anything bad to protect their interests)
I could keep you guys amused for hours until you'd all think I was a dork (well I guess you already do... sorry about that) - but I would still be telling the truth.
I'm way past the age where i need to impress with BS. I don't need to impres anyone, I've nothing to prove. But listen, you can't take first hand experience away from someone - you can have opinions however, and that is fine.
Now fusion was an extreme example that has nothing to do with Oil Extreme - which is nothing so clever as fusion - but OE is good stuff - I just thought I'd throw the fusion etc in for fun....
the new Oil Extreme thread is where I replied to the very intelligent review of the product by someone who has never actually tested it
some good questions being asked - but the answers some will never like...
That's ok - we're all friends here... so its all in good fun.... but...
Listen - why can't we all have our own fusion nuclear power packs - its clean, they'd last virtually forever, and provide almost unlimited power.... bla bla - several labs have cracked this.... or didn't you know that.... ooops... the naughty press didn't tell us.... I'm sorry.. but several labs around the world have created fusion - but don't hold your breath that you and I will ever benefit from it.
Remember the old flight backpacks we saw in the movies where you could just put it on and fly around? Amazing - very reliable and controllable too.... wonder why we never see them anymore? A little birdy told me they use nuclear energy for power... NAH!!!! Impossible - it'd just have been rocket fuel... hope it didn't burn their legs off! Could have been compressed air? yeah - that's it!
Top airforce fighter planes can reach 2200mph?
Oh really?
Well - what if I were to tell you that is a "slight" under-estimate - by a very large factor! Darn - that press just didn't get to hear about that I guess.... it's only those silly airforce pilots who aren't supposed to talk anyway that know... and a few engineers and other silly people who know nothing.
What about Area 51... hahaha.... yeah it doesn't exist either.
Or does it?
I met an acquaintence (we were both speaking at a forum) who was an expert in quantum physics and electronics. He was involved in counter intelligence during the cold war - working behind the Iron Curtain for many years undetected (working for NSA).... boy did he have some stories away from the crowds.... anyway - I showed him a plan for a flying saucer I had from a retired USAF officer who had worked in a top secret base (that doesn't exist).
This guy looked at it. He's no dummy - he had pioneered the electronic control box whose derivative now controlls virtually all commercial jets, he was no ordinary spy. I waited for him to tell me it was BS - just a fake. Instead he looked at me right in the eye and said "This will work!" Then he wanted my book with the plan in it - which I gave him. He wanted to build him a model for fun.
Proof? nope - never heard from him again.... but this was one very bright fellow who had forgotten more about physics and electrical energy, magnetism etc than I'll ever know. But let's put that one way out left-field.... as being say "interesting".
Then there are all the water engines that "don't exist" (won't go there), the gas vaporiser equipped cars that don't work so the technology doesn't exist (oops... built one of those - it worked! I just didn't have the few million I needed to make it commercial and fight all the legal anti-patent battles with the big corps who own them and don't want me or others to muscle in here). Oh yes and the PFI engine - that ran a catalyst that caused the 60% pure hydrogen peroxide to react and mix with the incoming air/fuel into the engine for some "interesting" results.... no doesn't exist either (oops - world beating snow mobile racers run them... now why don't we hear about this? gee I wonder - must be an oversight - and the 2 Swedish brothers who perfected it had to run into hiding from the Oil Companies who were loving them to death - it wasn't harrassment - no, no - that would mean consipiracy - and we all know that is a load of rubbish - i mean multi-billion dollar companies are philanthripists at heart - they'd never do anything bad to protect their interests)
I could keep you guys amused for hours until you'd all think I was a dork (well I guess you already do... sorry about that) - but I would still be telling the truth.
I'm way past the age where i need to impress with BS. I don't need to impres anyone, I've nothing to prove. But listen, you can't take first hand experience away from someone - you can have opinions however, and that is fine.
Now fusion was an extreme example that has nothing to do with Oil Extreme - which is nothing so clever as fusion - but OE is good stuff - I just thought I'd throw the fusion etc in for fun....
the new Oil Extreme thread is where I replied to the very intelligent review of the product by someone who has never actually tested it
Torquemonster, now I know you are over the edge. In the other post I made a snide remark about the magical carburetor and here you go invoking that same line here. Incredible.
At this point I would bet that you would say that all of the chemistry, physics, engineering, etc. that is taught today is all bunk. Anyone that believes in the magical carburetor has to believe in a different level of chemistry than what I know.
All commercial airplanes operate on a secret electronic box designed by your NSA buddy. Classic. When people tell you this bunk you actually believe them? Area 51! Space ship designs that work? Cold fusion in operation in someones backpack? I gotta tell you that I never believed someone could be so gullible. You are definitely one in a billion.
At this point I would bet that you would say that all of the chemistry, physics, engineering, etc. that is taught today is all bunk. Anyone that believes in the magical carburetor has to believe in a different level of chemistry than what I know.
All commercial airplanes operate on a secret electronic box designed by your NSA buddy. Classic. When people tell you this bunk you actually believe them? Area 51! Space ship designs that work? Cold fusion in operation in someones backpack? I gotta tell you that I never believed someone could be so gullible. You are definitely one in a billion.
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
Thanks Ron, but you jump to 10 before you've got to 3!
When you can get both eyes out of the keyhole you may be able to conceive of possiblities beyond what is accepted as "mainstream". Not all science is absolute - much of it is based upon assumptions. Therefore - is only as absolute as the sanctity of the assumptions...
There are many minds far greater than mine who agree with me.
who said anything about a secret box? Its common - no secret... this guy was simply employed to create the equivalent of the car ECU for planes. Companies liked it - so it became the base from which later ones developed. So what's the big deal? Someone had to do it... is it so incredible that I could have met him? I only mentioned it to show that the guy was not a fool before he worked for NSA.
You can't learn much in a straight-jacket. If I were employing an engineer for innovation - I'd have them de-brainwashed before they could be of any use to me.
as for cold fusion in someones backyard - that's an insult and you know what you can do with it. The labs are state of art and not in the USA, but very well funded - not that you'll believe it until you see it on CNN. Don't hold your breath... i said it to provoke thought - neither of us can prove our side either way.... there is evidence adequate for me - it won't convince you.
gullible? I've been caught out and wrong more than once...
but it beats hollow cynicism that never has to think outside the square or question the "rules".
Edison got it wrong far more than right - but eventually he got it right. That will never happen to anyone who does not challenge the "rules".
no hard feelings.
When you can get both eyes out of the keyhole you may be able to conceive of possiblities beyond what is accepted as "mainstream". Not all science is absolute - much of it is based upon assumptions. Therefore - is only as absolute as the sanctity of the assumptions...
There are many minds far greater than mine who agree with me.
who said anything about a secret box? Its common - no secret... this guy was simply employed to create the equivalent of the car ECU for planes. Companies liked it - so it became the base from which later ones developed. So what's the big deal? Someone had to do it... is it so incredible that I could have met him? I only mentioned it to show that the guy was not a fool before he worked for NSA.
You can't learn much in a straight-jacket. If I were employing an engineer for innovation - I'd have them de-brainwashed before they could be of any use to me.
as for cold fusion in someones backyard - that's an insult and you know what you can do with it. The labs are state of art and not in the USA, but very well funded - not that you'll believe it until you see it on CNN. Don't hold your breath... i said it to provoke thought - neither of us can prove our side either way.... there is evidence adequate for me - it won't convince you.
gullible? I've been caught out and wrong more than once...
but it beats hollow cynicism that never has to think outside the square or question the "rules".
Edison got it wrong far more than right - but eventually he got it right. That will never happen to anyone who does not challenge the "rules".
no hard feelings.
joe117
Enthusiast
torquemonster,
You have stepped out from behind the curtain and now all of Oz can see the truth. I don't call people names, but I've met a few people in my life who also believed in the things you listed. Those people were crackpots. I'm not calling you a crackpot but all the other folks who spouted this stuff were crackpots.
When I was a kid, I'd hear these tales and I'd believe. As I grew older I started to realize that these guys always seemed to have a few buttons missing.
I can predict the topics, conspiracy by big oil, secret plans for free energy, space aliens, engines or engine attachments giving 100 mpg, the CIA confiscated my plans.
Please tell me this,
The story that you told, about the plans for the flying saucer. Did that story actually happen to you?
Anyone who tries to dispute the wild claims is called closed minded. We are reminded that Columbus was called crazy and Edison needed a thousand tries to get it right.
Here's a standard that I use.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
And,
The simplest explanation is the most likely truth.
I notice that you do not respond to direct questions. I know something about a few of the topics you brought up. Do you think you can defend your belief in some of these topics?
You have stepped out from behind the curtain and now all of Oz can see the truth. I don't call people names, but I've met a few people in my life who also believed in the things you listed. Those people were crackpots. I'm not calling you a crackpot but all the other folks who spouted this stuff were crackpots.
When I was a kid, I'd hear these tales and I'd believe. As I grew older I started to realize that these guys always seemed to have a few buttons missing.
I can predict the topics, conspiracy by big oil, secret plans for free energy, space aliens, engines or engine attachments giving 100 mpg, the CIA confiscated my plans.
Please tell me this,
The story that you told, about the plans for the flying saucer. Did that story actually happen to you?
Anyone who tries to dispute the wild claims is called closed minded. We are reminded that Columbus was called crazy and Edison needed a thousand tries to get it right.
Here's a standard that I use.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
And,
The simplest explanation is the most likely truth.
I notice that you do not respond to direct questions. I know something about a few of the topics you brought up. Do you think you can defend your belief in some of these topics?
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
Joe - you are an honest man. That is obvious from what your write. I appreciate that very much. I also understand entirely what you are saying and where you have been.
I've been into some weird and deep places myself over the years.... and have come through to some similar conclusions to yourself by the sounds of it... there are some things however where the evidence "for" was greater than the evidence "against".... some strongly so.... some, just too hard to prove - so no side can win an argument... and as you say simplicty often rules.
I do however know from experience that the only way to grow and learn is to challenge the status quo - and that means stirring sometimes to get people to think... many go to their graves without ever having an original thought - and that's sad.
Joe - if you wish to email me I'll be happy to respond. I'd rather leave the forum on these matters -
as I look back over my posts its embarrassing how verbose I've been. My motive has only ever been to offer something that might be helpful to someone.... and sometimes I stir the *** for fun or to make people think.
I get something out of sharing your experiences and those of other posters on the forum - i try to give something back as I've had the priviledge to learn many wonderful things from meeting many very clever people... that's all.
Of course i could be wrong about many things.
Could you?
Joe, when I was younger I had a need to convince the world black was black and white was white. As we get older we learn the world isn't always so simple.
If you feel after some private dialogue that there is something you want to put on the forum - even that you think I'm a bone-head - then that is fine.
re the "plan"/NSA guy - yes I actually did meet him, he really did tell me he thought it would work, and we were both speakers on a public speaking itinery at the time - which was how we met. I have no way to know what he did when he got back to the USA and if he ever was successful - we connected when we met as we had some things in common and he shared some stuff in public too - thus exposing himself to ridicule if he could not back it up. But I've had no contact afterwards - nor a need to.
Behind smoke there's often a fire in the background - not necessarily the fire people want to see - but there's often something. When in the depths of that stuff - I've met some scary people too - not all were mad though - trust me... some were very sharp, very highly regarded, while some were very dangerous and I chose to distance myself from their extremism.
I'm far more mainstream than my posts may indicate - but feel no need to be anywhere other than true to myself... and if that means going the opposite way to everyone else - I've done that before and could do it again...
but not over silly things or things that don't matter in the end (like aliens and UFO's and stuff). That cuts out most issues.... there's few things in life worth really standing for, and I keep life simple by retreating to those few basics when reason has failed on the other stuff. One day we'll know the truth about many things - and the truth may surprise us all?
I've been into some weird and deep places myself over the years.... and have come through to some similar conclusions to yourself by the sounds of it... there are some things however where the evidence "for" was greater than the evidence "against".... some strongly so.... some, just too hard to prove - so no side can win an argument... and as you say simplicty often rules.
I do however know from experience that the only way to grow and learn is to challenge the status quo - and that means stirring sometimes to get people to think... many go to their graves without ever having an original thought - and that's sad.
Joe - if you wish to email me I'll be happy to respond. I'd rather leave the forum on these matters -
as I look back over my posts its embarrassing how verbose I've been. My motive has only ever been to offer something that might be helpful to someone.... and sometimes I stir the *** for fun or to make people think.
I get something out of sharing your experiences and those of other posters on the forum - i try to give something back as I've had the priviledge to learn many wonderful things from meeting many very clever people... that's all.
Of course i could be wrong about many things.
Could you?
Joe, when I was younger I had a need to convince the world black was black and white was white. As we get older we learn the world isn't always so simple.
If you feel after some private dialogue that there is something you want to put on the forum - even that you think I'm a bone-head - then that is fine.
re the "plan"/NSA guy - yes I actually did meet him, he really did tell me he thought it would work, and we were both speakers on a public speaking itinery at the time - which was how we met. I have no way to know what he did when he got back to the USA and if he ever was successful - we connected when we met as we had some things in common and he shared some stuff in public too - thus exposing himself to ridicule if he could not back it up. But I've had no contact afterwards - nor a need to.
Behind smoke there's often a fire in the background - not necessarily the fire people want to see - but there's often something. When in the depths of that stuff - I've met some scary people too - not all were mad though - trust me... some were very sharp, very highly regarded, while some were very dangerous and I chose to distance myself from their extremism.
I'm far more mainstream than my posts may indicate - but feel no need to be anywhere other than true to myself... and if that means going the opposite way to everyone else - I've done that before and could do it again...
but not over silly things or things that don't matter in the end (like aliens and UFO's and stuff). That cuts out most issues.... there's few things in life worth really standing for, and I keep life simple by retreating to those few basics when reason has failed on the other stuff. One day we'll know the truth about many things - and the truth may surprise us all?
joe117
Enthusiast
Has the "plan/NSA guy" story ever been published?
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