AMSOIL vs MOPAR (Transmission Fluid)

[ChampzViper06]

Do you all have any experience or words of wisdom for AMSOIL vs MOPAR for transmission fluid?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BV4D182/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_fab_fgrBFbHNBMVVX

vs

https://www.amsoil.com/p/manual-transmission-transaxle-gear-lube-75w-90-mtg/?code=MTGPK-EA

 

[Old School]

ATF+4 is not spec'd for an 06, it's for Gen4/5.

 

[daveg]

Gen 1/2 as well.

 

[FoxyChicken]

I have a 2008 and I strictly followed the guidance of products to use in my owners manual for all fluids. I was unsure when all the fluids in the car (other than motor oil) was changed last so I had all the fluids flushed for peace of mind a few weeks ago. Why not stick to what the owners manual recommends?

 

[ChampzViper06]

I have a 2008 and I strictly followed the guidance of products to use in my owners manual for all fluids. I was unsure when all the fluids in the car (other than motor oil) was changed last so I had all the fluids flushed for peace of mind a few weeks ago. Why not stick to what the owners manual recommends?

Does anyone with a Gen 3 have the owners manual that can tell me what I need for transmission fluid. Or attach a link, that would be helpful. Thanks in advance.

 

[Old School]

Does anyone with a Gen 3 have the owners manual that can tell me what I need for transmission fluid. Or attach a link, that would be helpful. Thanks in advance.

 

[Steve M]

I have a 2008 and I strictly followed the guidance of products to use in my owners manual for all fluids. I was unsure when all the fluids in the car (other than motor oil) was changed last so I had all the fluids flushed for peace of mind a few weeks ago. Why not stick to what the owners manual recommends?

For the most part, this will serve you well, but there are times when there are legitimate reasons to stray from the owner's manual recommendations. The best examples I can think of are with engine and differential oils, specifically for a Gen 4.

Engine Oil

Below is a screen capture from a conversation on Facebook with Dick Winkles - for the uninitiated, he was heavily involved with the Viper's V-10 engine development throughout the years.

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Although this specifically referenced the change from Mobil1 to Pennzoil for the Gen 5, the lessons learned can still be applied to the earlier gen engines.

Bottom line: some recommendations are made to bolster the manufacturer's bottom line at the expense of overall durability. Others may not reflect how these cars are most commonly used. After reading that, I switched over to the 10w40, and eventually the 15w50 due to how I sometimes drive my car.

Differential Oil

This example comes courtesy of @Steve-Indy from this thread: https://www.viperclub.org/vca/threa...ferential-lubricant-plus-a-gen-iv-tip.673004/

The pertinent info:

The Viper rear axle lube used from 1992 – 2010 (with Dana Trac-Lok and Hydra-Lok differentials) was the corporate ‘standard’ MS-8985 synthetic 75W-140… this was the same generic 75W-140 used in many other Chrysler products. For the Viper, the MS-10111 limited slip additive was also required. Viper fill volume to the bottom of the fill plug is about 48 oz. The factory fill at Dana was pre-blended with friction modifier at 5% by volume. For Service, the 75W-140 and the friction modifier are sold separately and the dealer/customer need to do the mix. The correct friction modifier amount for the Viper axle fill based on the 5% blend is about 2.4 oz. Unfortunately the stuff comes in a 4 oz. bottle I believe, so somewhere along the line, it became popular to put in a full bottle. A little more or less does not cause problems, but the correct amount has always been 5% by volume. Because it was a generic synthetic 75W-140, the MS-8985 fluid came from a variety of fluid suppliers including Shell, Texaco, etc.


Over time and miles, the friction modifier tends to ‘burn off’ and become less effective, causing some chatter when turning or other NVH issues. Usually, a fresh fluid/friction modifier change is sufficient to get things back to normal. The NVH issue became more apparent with the introduction of the Viper GKN Visco Lok differential in 2008. For 2008 – 2010, we lived with the standard 75W-140 fluid because it met all of our durability requirements and was less expensive than other lube alternatives. But we did have more of a friction modifier ‘loss of effectiveness’ issue with the Visco Lok as we got more experience with the new differential. We learned that on some cars, the Visco Lok would tend to make a howl/growl/grind noise when turning at low speed if the friction modifier was used up. So for 2013, we went with the special Castrol SAF-XJ 75W-140 synthetic developed by Castrol and GKN for the Visco Lok. This fluid has a different friction modifier and blend % already mixed for factory fill and Service. No added friction modifier is necessary. It is also recommended that the Castrol SAF-XJ be used for Service of 2008 – 2010 Vipers with the Visco Lok. I do not know if Castrol sells this product under their brand name, but I do know that it is available in a special ‘SRT’ bottle from Mopar. "

Bottom line: sometimes a better product comes along that works better than what was available when these cars came off the assembly line. In the case of the Gen 4, it shares the same limited slip carrier (GKN Visco Lok) as the Gen 5, so once again, the lessons learned can be applied.

FWIW, Castrol SAF-XJ has been relabeled to Castrol Transmax Limited Slip:

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Don't let the "Transmax" part fool you - it is indeed made for differentials, no additive required.

Transmission Oil

I'm including this one since it is pertinent to this thread. Referencing a post from @MoparMap here: https://www.viperclub.org/vca/threads/factory-fluid-cross-reference.677364/

Transmission - Castrol Syntorq LT (has been discontinued though, so this one is going to be interesting in the future)

Bottom line: Sometimes the recommended fluid is no longer available.

Related Random Story (Transmission Oil Related)

Thankfully, the Viper community has some excellent resources. For transmissions, one of those excellent resources is Mr. John Donato, who is a retired Chrysler Powertrain engineer that rebuilds Viper transmissions as a side gig. I had the pleasure of doing business with him earlier this year when I had him go through my TR-6060 to replace the major wear items.

I approached him many years ago when I started drag racing my Gen 4, and he recommended switching from the factory recommended ATF+4 to BG Synchro Shift II (https://www.bgprod.com/catalog/driveline/bg-syncro-shift-ii/), specifically because it had more extreme pressure additives that would protect the transmission internals better under hard use. I ran this for a few years, noting that the trade-off was with a little notchier cold shifting that went away once the transmission was up to temp. Overall, it served me well.

When I talked to him earlier this year, I got a bit more of the back story as to why he made that recommendation. Long story short: he has connections with one of the major oil additive manufacturers (Lubrizol - https://www.lubrizol.com/). They apparently supply many oil companies with the additives they need to make their products better. When John has run into failures in the past, he'll sometimes send the failed parts to his contacts for analysis to figure out what happened, with the goal of finding out if a different oil or additive package may have helped. In some cases with really high HP builds, the failure analysis showed a lack of extreme pressure additives likely led to the failure (the oil was essentially squeezed out under a heavy load, leading to metal-on-metal contact, and failure shortly thereafter from excessive heat build up). Since Lubrizol provides additives to most of the major manufacturers (and the minor ones too), they know which of their products have "the good stuff". That's where his BG Synchro Shift II recommendation came from.

Upon receiving my rebuilt transmission, John recommended trying something a little different this time (also based on Lubrizol's recommendation):

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His rationale: according to his sources, this stuff has more extreme pressure additives than standard ATF+4, and should hold up better to severe use. Since it is an ATF, it is a bit thinner than the BG Synchro Shift II (which is a 75w80, and thus on the thicker side of oils), and his theory was that the cold shifting should be improved as a result. The only problem was he didn't have any real world data from a TR-6060 to back it up, so I decided to be a guinea pig. I broke in my newly rebuilt transmission in with Mopar ATF+4 to get a good baseline, and then switched over to the Delvac (which I was able to source locally at Napa). So far, so good, and I've been pleasantly surprised at how much smoother the transmission shifts with the Delvac ATF over the Mopar ATF+4. Time will tell how well it works in the long run.

Obviously this is very application specific and won't apply to most, but the moral of the story is this: there are some folks out there that have been around the block, and some of those folks have access to information that the general public does not. On those rare occasions, I've finally learned to shut up and listen. There's certainly risk involved, but nothing lasts forever, and I just so happen to know a guy that rebuilds transmissions should this one fail. And if he's no longer around, I'll just do it myself.

 

[daveg]

Steve, Great write-up.
In my Gen 2 (non 6060 Trans but a T56), I was running ATF+4 and switched over to Tremecs Gear oil (had slight NGR which never bothered me). The Gear oil doesn't shift as nice as the ATF. Was wondering if I switched back to ATF (which I am thinking of doing anyways) and used the Delvac, if I can get back my smooth shifting and if the Delvac would help with NGR.

Guess the only way to tell is to try it.

 

[Goggles Pizano]

@daveg what year is your car and more importantly what does the sticker on the ****** say?

 

[daveg]

Its a 96. Vin 33.. Not sure what the question was that was blocked out with ******
Assuming door sticker?
MDH: 051708

 

[MoparMap]

I actually emailed Tremec a while back when the Castrol Syntorq was getting harder and harder to find to see what they recommended. They said something like Mobil 1 synthetic ATF was what was used in the vast majority of T56s. Admittedly the Viper is a little different than most in that it tends to be a much higher torque engine than others, but just another note to add to the conversation. I'm definitely going to save Steve's post somewhere for my own reference later though. The differential one is interesting to me especially as I swapped a gen 4 diff into my gen 3. I was always under the impression that the friction modified was more used because of the clutches in the limited slip, but sounds like maybe that isn't true. The reason I say that is by my understanding at least, the gen 4 diff is actually a sealed unit where the clutches are in their own special shear fluid and not exposed to the general diff lubricant. If that was the case and friction modifier was specifically used because of the clutches, then the gen 4 wouldn't need it because it never contacts the clutches in that unit anyway. Nice to know that is not necessarily why it is used. Will have to see if I can find some of those various fluids local to me or not.

 

[daveg]

I actually emailed Tremec a while back when the Castrol Syntorq was getting harder and harder to find to see what they recommended. They said something like Mobil 1 synthetic ATF was what was used in the vast majority of T56s. Admittedly the Viper is a little different than most in that it tends to be a much higher torque engine than others, but just another note to add to the conversation.

I know Dodge had a Service Bulletin to switch to Gear oil for the people that complained about NGR. So that's why I went Tremec fluid.. I will most likely be switching back to ATF because I liked the way the Trans felt with ATF better.

 

[RyanLS-GTS]

The Most Common T56 Fluid Questions

Do's and don'ts for Tremec transmission fluid! We've compiled a list of the most common T56 & TR6060 fluid questions and answers.

www.txdrivetrain.com

I don't do near the amount of transmissions he does but I've ran across a couple with the carbon the blockers shined up pretty good and the engagement teeth with sever wear.

 

[Steve M]

The Most Common T56 Fluid Questions

Do's and don'ts for Tremec transmission fluid! We've compiled a list of the most common T56 & TR6060 fluid questions and answers.

www.txdrivetrain.com

I don't do near the amount of transmissions he does but I've ran across a couple with the carbon the blockers shined up pretty good and the engagement teeth with sever wear.

What are your thoughts on the non-synthetic ATF?

 

[Goggles Pizano]

Its a 96. Vin 33.. Not sure what the question was that was blocked out with ******
Assuming door sticker?
MDH: 051708

T r a n n y

So the sticker would state Dexron III since 96 but check.

I bought 12x 1 quart bottles and changed mine (you don't need 12 quarts). Haven't driven it yet.

Get actually regular dex3 NOT the equivalent or compatible with Dex3. And don't do synthetic oil.

 

[daveg]

T r a n n y

So the sticker would state Dexron III since 96 but check.

I bought 12x 1 quart bottles and changed mine (you don't need 12 quarts). Haven't driven it yet.

Get actually regular dex3 NOT the equivalent or compatible with Dex3. And don't do synthetic oil.

Tag on T r a n n y says Dextron III. I believe replacement is ATF+4

 

[daveg]

So looking at the "The Most Common T56 & TR6060 Fluid Questions article", it states non Synthetic ATF fluid for the 6060 and T56. My sons owners manual for his 2010 SRT-8 Challenger states ATF+4 which is synthetic and his car has the 6060 in it.

Dodge has a service bulletin for NGR (Common in Gen II T56's) states to put in MTF. Factory fill for the Later Gen II I believe, could be wrong, is MTF

Viper Club of America

Tremec states for there 6060 (2008 and up) use their Manual Transmission Fluid.

https://www.tremec.com/menu/manual-transmission-fluid/

Something doesn't jive.

 

[daveg]

Found this post on the Vette forum..

THE Word" on 1998-2002 Manual Trans Lubricant
The question about whether one should run synthetic ATF or even a non-ATF gear lube in the f-body's Borg-Warner/Tremac 6-speed Trans has been bouncing around. Mark DeCarlo, co-organizer of CNYF, has tracked down the answer. Mark reports....

"I spoke with the T-56 expert at Tremec. He said that the Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF is an excellent choice for the T-56, PROVIDED that the T-56 is a 1997 model or newer.

DO NOT run the synthetic ATF in the pre-1997 T-56 units. It will destroy the paper on the blocker rings. And do not run it in a manual trans with brass blocker rings either, because it will ruin those also.

Tremec changed the blocker rings to the carbon fiber type for the 1997 model year and synthetic ATF will not degrade these.

I asked about the GM SynchroMesh and he said it was good, but not quite as good as the Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF. The SynchroMesh fluid comes in the Tremec 3550.

He said you should have no problems running the Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF in the T-56.

Notice how I keep saying "Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF". He said stay away from the other aftermarket racing type synthetics, as they have extra additives that can degrade components.

I asked about the Castrol Syntorq gear lube. He said you could use it (and they used to in the Viper), but you will encounter hard shift in cold weather and cold clash.

I asked if GM would honor the warranty if something were to happen to the trans while the Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF was installed and he said they would.

But the one thing I would like to point out; just because a bottle says that it supercedes a different product, doesn't make it necessarily so. If someone had grabbed the bottle of synthetic ATF and read that it meets and exceeds all dino ATF specs; and then installed it in their pre-1997 F-body, it would have ruined the box. So don't believe everything you read."

 

[Goggles Pizano]

@daveg that why i said no synthetic and dex3 only not an equivalent or compatible

 

[daveg]

@daveg that why i said no synthetic and dex3 only not an equivalent or compatible

Gotcha. Lots of miss information out there!!! My lift is free this weekend and I am going to dump the Tremec fluid and going back to Dex III. Always felt the Trans shifted way better with ATF in there.

Are you running the Valvoline? Dex / Merc?

 

[Goggles Pizano]

Gotcha. Lots of miss information out there!!! My lift is free this weekend and I am going to dump the Tremec fluid and going back to Dex III. Always felt the Trans shifted way better with ATF in there.

Are you running the Valvoline? Dex / Merc?

Actual Castrol dex3 (used F version if i remember right) (black bottle, I am not where the bottles are so I can't take a picture or the UPC code and can't find the email order). Found them for a good price and bought 12 online from Walmart. Even though I try to not buy stuff from Walmart.

I spend weeks looking at data sheets and emailed 1 or 2 manufacturers.

Dex3 has multiple revisions, F, G and H.

 

[daveg]

Assuming

https://www.amazon.com/Castrol-03520C-TRANSMAX-MERC-Gallon/dp/B00DILUBL6/ref=asc_df_B00DILUBL6/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198091122898&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14919595621527593803&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001873&hvtargid=pla-382519368675&th=1

 

[Goggles Pizano]

Assuming

https://www.amazon.com/Castrol-03520C-TRANSMAX-MERC-Gallon/dp/B00DILUBL6/ref=asc_df_B00DILUBL6/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198091122898&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14919595621527593803&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001873&hvtargid=pla-382519368675&th=1

Sorry can not confirm if that was it but i am 90% sure it is not. We discussed this on the other site with njsteve and you has posted in the thread.

 

[ChampzViper06]

Sorry can not confirm if that was it but i am 90% sure it is not. We discussed this on the other site with njsteve and you has posted in the thread.

If you find it can you please add the link in here please. It be much appreciated.

 

[ChampzViper06]

Where can I find this Tremec T-56 Mopar Synthetic 75W85 Manual Trans Lubricant?

 

[daveg]

Sorry can not confirm if that was it but i am 90% sure it is not. We discussed this on the other site with njsteve and you has posted in the thread.

Read the Datasheet on Castrol's site and it is Dextron III or at least that's what I have interpreted from in.

 

[daveg]

Where can I find this Tremec T-56 Mopar Synthetic 75W85 Manual Trans Lubricant?

What year T-56?

 

[daveg]

Sorry can not confirm if that was it but i am 90% sure it is not. We discussed this on the other site with njsteve and you has posted in the thread.

Thats when I was running ATF+4 or Tremecs.
Not sure I will be able to locate it.

Tons of bad / unsubstantiated information out there. My tag says Dextron III so thats whats going in it.
Even read 1 post saying Vipers never came with Paper Blockers like other cars.

 

[ChampzViper06]

What year T-56?

2006

 

[daveg]

2006

Is that a T-56 or a 6060?
What does the tag say on the Tranny. The Tremec fluid is for 2008 and above which is most likely the 6060

I am going to run the Castrol fluid listed above. Reason being is that Dextron III has been around forever and IMO there is no problem running a fluid that states on its Datasheet that its specifically for Dextron III and not Mercon V, SP or LV / Ford type F.
In the article mention above "The Most Common T56 & TR6060 Fluid Questions" shows a bottle of Valvoline Dex/Mer, same as the Castrol and they list Castrol as well.

If this were a Toyota running World Standard Fluid IE WS OR a Mitsubishi running SP fluid I would go Factory but we are talking Dextron III and Castrol is a reputable company!!

This is my 2 Pennie's and I am done researching / thinking about it, Poke me with a Fork.

My understanding is the Tremec fluid was NOT tested on the T-56.
https://www.tremec.com/menu/manual-transmission-fluid/

But WHO KNOWS?????