ARE VIPERS HAND BUILT?
- Thread starter SPARKY
- Start date
Austin
Enthusiast
Yes!
Next question...
Next question...
KenH
Enthusiast
Here is a pretty good link with info and pictures of the build process which is not a typical auto assembly line:
http://www.yearone.com/enthusiast/articles/magicalmopartour/connerassembly.html
http://www.yearone.com/enthusiast/articles/magicalmopartour/connerassembly.html
ChoiceViper
Viper Owner
Thanks for the link Ken. Nice article. I've never seen that one before. 
Russ M
Enthusiast
There are a few misprints but otherwise a good article.
I like the one that says all Viper body panels besides one are made out of CARBON FIBER.
Now that would be nice.
I like the one that says all Viper body panels besides one are made out of CARBON FIBER.
Now that would be nice.
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
There is a difference between hand assembled and hand built.
A Rolls Royce is hand built. A Viper is hand assembled.
Hand assembled can be a blessing or a curse - it depends upon whether the person assembling/working that section of the car is a craftsman, skilled worker, or some bottom dweller on auto pilot day dreaming about their imaginery lover.
When we buy a Viper we hope we get one built by a craftsman - but reality is at the mercy of quality control within Dodge.
When Dodge can put out a hand assembled car with less defects per 100 than a Japanese robotics plant - they have arrived! And yes it has been done - it was consistently done by a Toyota plant, and Toyota sent officials from all over the world to this plant to see how that kind of quality could be acheived by hand. DC should have sent people there - they'd have learned a lot. Toyota did.
A Rolls Royce is hand built. A Viper is hand assembled.
Hand assembled can be a blessing or a curse - it depends upon whether the person assembling/working that section of the car is a craftsman, skilled worker, or some bottom dweller on auto pilot day dreaming about their imaginery lover.
When we buy a Viper we hope we get one built by a craftsman - but reality is at the mercy of quality control within Dodge.
When Dodge can put out a hand assembled car with less defects per 100 than a Japanese robotics plant - they have arrived! And yes it has been done - it was consistently done by a Toyota plant, and Toyota sent officials from all over the world to this plant to see how that kind of quality could be acheived by hand. DC should have sent people there - they'd have learned a lot. Toyota did.
Lee00blacksilverGTS
Enthusiast
Torqie... hand assembled and hand built? On the one hand we seem to be be comparing hand built Rolls to Vipers to make one piece of the argument and then we jump to comparing Japanese robotic built cars to the Viper. Very, very different situations. I would take it to a different level...I'm a Q45 guy...I don't think anybody can build a car that will last as long as the manufacturers from Japan. And I think robotics come into play there. My recently departed M5 could not even come close to the quality of absent defects of the Q. Now on to Rolls....never having owned one, and never wishing to, I continually have heard stories in the the last 10-15 years regarding the LACK or quality therof. If hand built means that some guy cuts down the tree, drags it back to the old workshop and then custom cuts, sands and stains the dashboard then that is hand built, I guess? And that would be the definition of hand built vs. hand assembled? Maybe the conversation should really be about hand assembled EXOTICS?? Now, we do agree the Viper is hand assembled, right? So, just for the sake of argument let's compare it vs. Ferrari, Lambo, Lotus, Aston Martin, etc. If there were ever a JD Powers study comparing initial defects I bet the Viper would win hands down. How many of us have Ferrari/Lambo buddies who are always crying in their beverage of their choice regarding their problems? I have a buddy who bought a new 360 and has 10 times the problems I have and 10% of the the fun. Oh, and he spent what compared to me?
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
Lee - I hear you buddy - no argument from me. For the money the Viper is excellent value... there are the examples that someone did a crappy job on, but that is true of makes that cost a LOT more - so that's the way it is.
As for Rolls - they are hand crafted - much of their work like the wooden dash - where the timber is kept in storage forever incase the car ever needs repair (so the grain will match), the famous grille hand beaten and made etc - this is craftsmanship.
The unreliability of the past was mechanical and electrical - thanks to Joseph Lucas (Prince of Darkness) electrical gear. But you are correct - one of my best friends has had 5 Rolls - and has broken down on every major intersection in LA and many of the minor ones... hahaha - well not funny at the time... I wouldn't buy a used Rolls for anything - but the craftsmanship as art is top notch....
they just break down
must be those 400 Mopar shortblocks they use
The Viper could be built to standards as high as your Q45. I'd love a mandate from DC to do that because I know the people personally who did just that in a Toyota plant.... the quality was so good it was kept alive as one of the automotive "wonders of the world" until econmics and loss of govt tarrifs protecting it closed it down... but I know how they did it, some of those key people would be available to teach.
People can rise above machines because they can do one thing a machine can't - THINK. Use machines for precision, but good, motivated, inspired people for putting it all together
If there was the politcal will DC could have the best assembled cars in the world but it'd take a cultural shift of epic proportions. But I think it could be done. Even a ******* has basic human needs - such as the need to feel appreciated and feel like what they do matters, be resourced and skilled up to do it, empowered to do it, and listened to when they see better ways to do things... then rewarded and recognised for their good work. You can build a legend treating people like that instead of paying lip service with the warm fuzzy's that no-one buys into....
pity that plant didn't survive govt dropping all import duty. Labor costs couldn't compete with the machines in large scale production - but their heart and labor were more than a match. All our Toyotas are now imported fully built.
As for Rolls - they are hand crafted - much of their work like the wooden dash - where the timber is kept in storage forever incase the car ever needs repair (so the grain will match), the famous grille hand beaten and made etc - this is craftsmanship.
The unreliability of the past was mechanical and electrical - thanks to Joseph Lucas (Prince of Darkness) electrical gear. But you are correct - one of my best friends has had 5 Rolls - and has broken down on every major intersection in LA and many of the minor ones... hahaha - well not funny at the time... I wouldn't buy a used Rolls for anything - but the craftsmanship as art is top notch....
they just break down
must be those 400 Mopar shortblocks they use The Viper could be built to standards as high as your Q45. I'd love a mandate from DC to do that because I know the people personally who did just that in a Toyota plant.... the quality was so good it was kept alive as one of the automotive "wonders of the world" until econmics and loss of govt tarrifs protecting it closed it down... but I know how they did it, some of those key people would be available to teach.
People can rise above machines because they can do one thing a machine can't - THINK. Use machines for precision, but good, motivated, inspired people for putting it all together
If there was the politcal will DC could have the best assembled cars in the world but it'd take a cultural shift of epic proportions. But I think it could be done. Even a ******* has basic human needs - such as the need to feel appreciated and feel like what they do matters, be resourced and skilled up to do it, empowered to do it, and listened to when they see better ways to do things... then rewarded and recognised for their good work. You can build a legend treating people like that instead of paying lip service with the warm fuzzy's that no-one buys into....
pity that plant didn't survive govt dropping all import duty. Labor costs couldn't compete with the machines in large scale production - but their heart and labor were more than a match. All our Toyotas are now imported fully built.
Yellow Fever
Enthusiast
Thanks for the link Ken. Nice article. I've never seen that one before.
I agree ! Great link ...Thanks
joe117
Enthusiast
Given the same product and materials, I don't think a person on an assembly line can produce the same quality as a machine on an assembly line.
Now that's if you are talking about a modern, high production assembly line.
Limited production cars, such as Viper and the early Vettes, didn't have a big automated assembly process. It just doesn't make sense to have robots until the quantities reach a certain level.
More than a few things are decided by the number of units produced. I believe the early Vettes were fiberglass because it was much cheaper to produce. No large dies need be made to shape steel or aluminum body parts.
As long as there is an independent QC department, I'll bet on a robot to do a better job day in and day out than a factory worker.
Now that's if you are talking about a modern, high production assembly line.
Limited production cars, such as Viper and the early Vettes, didn't have a big automated assembly process. It just doesn't make sense to have robots until the quantities reach a certain level.
More than a few things are decided by the number of units produced. I believe the early Vettes were fiberglass because it was much cheaper to produce. No large dies need be made to shape steel or aluminum body parts.
As long as there is an independent QC department, I'll bet on a robot to do a better job day in and day out than a factory worker.
Craig 201 MPH
Enthusiast
No they're built by "craftspeople"
You know, single mom's with 8 kids.
You know, single mom's with 8 kids.
Janni
Enthusiast
Even though the Vipers are hand assembled, the Viper plant is a test bed for some VERY high tech manufacturing techniques, as ewll as testing some high tech and cost efficient materials. The latest multimillion dollar piece of equipment at CAAP is a net form and pierce machine - a machine that drills all the frame holes and makes small adjustments to every mounting point on the frame. These mounting points are checks and cross checked to hundreds of other points on the car to insure each mounting hole is exactly where it should be. VGX Vipers are assembled without shims - a giant leap forward from Gen I and Gen II, and better than some higher volume plants.
In addition, every nut is torqued using a computer driven electric torque wrench that changes the torque setting based on the size socket that is withdrawn from the tray. the torques are saved and can be called up based on the car that was going thorugh the line at that time if there are any issues.
The craftspeople, that Craig so easily insults, have many years of experience building cars. They contribute to continuous improvement programs, waste reduction programs, supplier quality improvement programs and a host of other quality driven items that "normal" assembly line workers do not. In many instances, they have given up much more lucrative assembly jobs (jobs that are eligible for overtime) to build our cars. They are there becasue they want to be and it shows.
So Craig, take your condescending attitude and get an education before you start ripping on a group of people that are very good at what they do.
In addition, every nut is torqued using a computer driven electric torque wrench that changes the torque setting based on the size socket that is withdrawn from the tray. the torques are saved and can be called up based on the car that was going thorugh the line at that time if there are any issues.
The craftspeople, that Craig so easily insults, have many years of experience building cars. They contribute to continuous improvement programs, waste reduction programs, supplier quality improvement programs and a host of other quality driven items that "normal" assembly line workers do not. In many instances, they have given up much more lucrative assembly jobs (jobs that are eligible for overtime) to build our cars. They are there becasue they want to be and it shows.
So Craig, take your condescending attitude and get an education before you start ripping on a group of people that are very good at what they do.
Ron
Enthusiast
I bet you've never toured Conner Avenue, have you Craig.
I have and I there are craftspeople. Any quality issues with the Viper are more a result of engineering issues then assembly.
I have and I there are craftspeople. Any quality issues with the Viper are more a result of engineering issues then assembly.
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
Ron and Janni's comments are re-assuring and good to know. DC has obviously worked on quality control as there have been issues.
If the staff are encouraged to contribute better ideas - that are acted on in a positive manner (whether adopted or not) they'll get even better.
If the staff are encouraged to contribute better ideas - that are acted on in a positive manner (whether adopted or not) they'll get even better.
GCHDEALER
Enthusiast
The Toyota assembly plants here in the states are remarkable. The things that they incorporate just to make it easier on their employee's comes first. The theory is that if the workers are comfortable and happy they turn out better work. One other fact is that if an assembly worker drops one single screw into an unfinished car or even on the floor, he or she is to pull a cord right over-head and it stops the whole line until the screw is picked up. You would think that this cord gets pulled all day long and nothing would ever get accomplished, but it does not. Typical day the cord is pulled less than 6 times. It is also a fact that Toyota invited in all of the American Companies to share the knowledge but the big three just can't grasp the concept. Sorry to go off topic but I am a little biased on this subject.
Chad (The Toyota Dealer)
Chad (The Toyota Dealer)
SNKEBIT
Enthusiast
Sure,,,,,, a TOYOTA dealer!!!! 
joe117
Enthusiast
I remember someone on the board talking about a lady doing Viper engine assembly, slapping parts around, dropping the crank into the bearings without much care.
I'll bet on the robots any day.
If they have more people assembling Vipers than they would on another line, it's because people are the cheapest way to go for the number of units built.
I'm not saying Vipers are poorly built. I am saying that DC doesn't put any more quality into their assembly than it does for a Neon.
All the parts get put where they need to be with as much precision as is required and no more.
Well, perhaps the paint is better.
I'll bet on the robots any day.
If they have more people assembling Vipers than they would on another line, it's because people are the cheapest way to go for the number of units built.
I'm not saying Vipers are poorly built. I am saying that DC doesn't put any more quality into their assembly than it does for a Neon.
All the parts get put where they need to be with as much precision as is required and no more.
Well, perhaps the paint is better.
Janni
Enthusiast
Joe,
have you been to the assembly plant for the Viper?
I am guessing no - based on your comments. After the engine assembly was moved from Mound Road to Conner Ave, overall engine warranty claims decreased significantly. They track these things, you know. Improving quality reduces costs - they are familiar with that concept.
Internal quality goals have been set for the VGX and then amended as they continued to exceed them.
Jigs and fixtures were built to improve parts delivery to the line. Each station is not only responsible for their own work product quality, but for those stations before them.
This is not a high volume line. CARE is taken and there is a great deal of PRIDE in the workmanship. You can see it when you walk in the plant - the walls are painted in Viper murals, there are plaques thanking the workers, there are awards for continually meeting and exceeding quality goals.
Much has changed at Conner Ave - certainly since your car was built.
So, if you haven't been to the plant and seen the assembly process, please don't make statements about how much quality is put in each car. It's just wrong.
I am planning a trip for later this year for the Carolinas region to tour CAAP. Please join us and see the process for yourself. Then, feel free to comment on the process and any quality issues.
have you been to the assembly plant for the Viper?
I am guessing no - based on your comments. After the engine assembly was moved from Mound Road to Conner Ave, overall engine warranty claims decreased significantly. They track these things, you know. Improving quality reduces costs - they are familiar with that concept.
Internal quality goals have been set for the VGX and then amended as they continued to exceed them.
Jigs and fixtures were built to improve parts delivery to the line. Each station is not only responsible for their own work product quality, but for those stations before them.
This is not a high volume line. CARE is taken and there is a great deal of PRIDE in the workmanship. You can see it when you walk in the plant - the walls are painted in Viper murals, there are plaques thanking the workers, there are awards for continually meeting and exceeding quality goals.
Much has changed at Conner Ave - certainly since your car was built.
So, if you haven't been to the plant and seen the assembly process, please don't make statements about how much quality is put in each car. It's just wrong.
I am planning a trip for later this year for the Carolinas region to tour CAAP. Please join us and see the process for yourself. Then, feel free to comment on the process and any quality issues.
Jeff Torrey
Enthusiast
I agree with what Janni said...plus I can not understand where you could have an assembly issue on your car. My point being that if something breaks on your car, very seldom does it have anything to do with the way it was assembled. Most of the problems are related to engineering and subcontractors parts failing ...over time. Even then, most of the cars are repaired under warrantee (no out of pocket costs to you). Just your inconvenience being the problem.
Wild Bill
Enthusiast
Thanks Janni, I enjoyed your responses! Hopefully sometime in the future I'll get the opportunity to tour the plant where my 'baby' was born.
Bill
Bill
luc
Enthusiast
Janni,
Before coming down on Graig,may be you can explain to me how my brand new (at the time ) 2000 GTS was leaking water/air from the windshield so bad than when I pulled it out (don't trusted the dealer, that was going to sub-contract the job anyway) I was amazed to see that there wast NO $#@^ uterhane sealant at ALL on the top and only 2 1" strips on both sides?
3 highky skilled "crafterpersons" must have been looking for their "craft" when the assembled my car, the first one in charge of putting the sealant,the second one during the "wet room" test and the third one during final QC/pre-delivery check.
Luc.
00GTS
Before coming down on Graig,may be you can explain to me how my brand new (at the time ) 2000 GTS was leaking water/air from the windshield so bad than when I pulled it out (don't trusted the dealer, that was going to sub-contract the job anyway) I was amazed to see that there wast NO $#@^ uterhane sealant at ALL on the top and only 2 1" strips on both sides?
3 highky skilled "crafterpersons" must have been looking for their "craft" when the assembled my car, the first one in charge of putting the sealant,the second one during the "wet room" test and the third one during final QC/pre-delivery check.
Luc.
00GTS
Janni
Enthusiast
Luc,
YOU have a valid issue. There obviously was a quality issue and I did hear of other 2000 cars leaking at the top of the windshield. Sounds like a process problem - and one that wasn't caught in their wet testing (they do have an extensive wet test booth). Never heard of it again in 2001 forward, so it seems to have been addressed at a manufacturing level. It is possible that the process was changed and the craftspeople were following the proper procedure - and the procedure was flawed - it wasn't necessarily a bunch of slackers trying to save on sealant. I say this *because* of the other similar issues I have heard about.
Craig's snide little remark about a "single mom with 8 kids" is baseless and infantile and he deserved the smack.
YOU have a valid issue. There obviously was a quality issue and I did hear of other 2000 cars leaking at the top of the windshield. Sounds like a process problem - and one that wasn't caught in their wet testing (they do have an extensive wet test booth). Never heard of it again in 2001 forward, so it seems to have been addressed at a manufacturing level. It is possible that the process was changed and the craftspeople were following the proper procedure - and the procedure was flawed - it wasn't necessarily a bunch of slackers trying to save on sealant. I say this *because* of the other similar issues I have heard about.
Craig's snide little remark about a "single mom with 8 kids" is baseless and infantile and he deserved the smack.
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
I concur. It sounds that DC is slowly catching on now from what Janni has said - but they'd have really learned a lot if they'd accepted those invitations.
The Thames Plant in my home town consisently produced less defects per 100 cars than the very best robotic plants in Japan. Nobody could comprehend how that was possible - it should not be possible - so they sent out teams from Japan to study what they did - it started a global Toyota learning then education program.
The beauty of the Viper is - with the passion a car like that can inspire - DC could do EVEN BETTER! This plant was able to do that building shopping cart cars, what could be done with the meanest baddest car produced in America? The present staff are up for it - it is plain by Janni's comments... they need the same pride in the engineering to the smallest detail and to cut off the left testacles of the bean counters until this is achieved - THEN watch the profits come in as the car becomes renowned for total quality as well as total performance! DC can do this - there is no doubt - I hope they do.
Wild Bill
Enthusiast
Remember if they start using robots they will have to build and sell lots more to cover the investment...do you really want the Viper to be as common as a 'vette?
B
B
luc
Enthusiast
Janni,
I disagree, that the urethane sealant was completly missing on the top and only had 2 1" strips on the side is may be due to a process or equipment problem, but that the leak (we are not talking about dripping,more the Niagara Falls here)was not seen/caught during the wet room test is impossible, the only logical reason is that the car NEVER went through the wet room test.
Don't take me wrong,I love my car and will never sell it but quality and/or fit& finish is is sorely missing.
I never expected the Viper to be as well built than a ---- (your favorite) but all those talks about highly skilled craftpersons sound like self-serving PR
Luc.
00GTS
I disagree, that the urethane sealant was completly missing on the top and only had 2 1" strips on the side is may be due to a process or equipment problem, but that the leak (we are not talking about dripping,more the Niagara Falls here)was not seen/caught during the wet room test is impossible, the only logical reason is that the car NEVER went through the wet room test.
Don't take me wrong,I love my car and will never sell it but quality and/or fit& finish is is sorely missing.
I never expected the Viper to be as well built than a ---- (your favorite) but all those talks about highly skilled craftpersons sound like self-serving PR
Luc.
00GTS
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
Luc - reading between the lines it would appear the quality control came in after your model... there are several stories floating around about how lax some of the older ones were - which is where Craigs comments came from.
In theory your problem should not be found in 2001 or newer cars.
C O D Y
Enthusiast
Sorry guys, I hate to say it, but the same leak was on my 2002 FE.
I was driving back from a viper meeting with some other vipers, we got into a good rain storm and drip, drip, drip from the top of my windshield. I love this car in so many ways, however I do not use the word "quality" to describe it or any of the other vipers I've owned. These are great cars for so many reasons. I still love vipers and wouldn't take anything else right now. For me it's not a big issue to get fixed because I have a great viper tech (Ken Kilickman) and a dealership that takes care of me.
I was driving back from a viper meeting with some other vipers, we got into a good rain storm and drip, drip, drip from the top of my windshield. I love this car in so many ways, however I do not use the word "quality" to describe it or any of the other vipers I've owned. These are great cars for so many reasons. I still love vipers and wouldn't take anything else right now. For me it's not a big issue to get fixed because I have a great viper tech (Ken Kilickman) and a dealership that takes care of me.
joe117
Enthusiast
Here's what I said,
"I'm not saying Vipers are poorly built. I am saying that DC doesn't put any more quality into their assembly than it does for a Neon.
All the parts get put where they need to be with as much precision as is required and no more."
A tour through the Viper plant doesn't give you a clue about what is really going on with Viper production.
Do you know what a dog and pony show is?
Do you think that all those union workers are going to do a really great job so the Viper owner will have a great car?
Do you think they wake up every morning and rush to the plant so they can fill another day with great times doing interesting work?
Who are those posters for? The workers? They can't even buy a new Neon.
Wake up, what do you know about factory work?
No, the best you can hope is that they are going to do exactly what they are told to do. They are processors on a production line.
Read this....
I'm not saying that a Viper or a Neon is built with poor quality. I'm saying that the quality is what DC pays for and they are only going to pay for as much as is needed.
"I'm not saying Vipers are poorly built. I am saying that DC doesn't put any more quality into their assembly than it does for a Neon.
All the parts get put where they need to be with as much precision as is required and no more."
A tour through the Viper plant doesn't give you a clue about what is really going on with Viper production.
Do you know what a dog and pony show is?
Do you think that all those union workers are going to do a really great job so the Viper owner will have a great car?
Do you think they wake up every morning and rush to the plant so they can fill another day with great times doing interesting work?
Who are those posters for? The workers? They can't even buy a new Neon.
Wake up, what do you know about factory work?
No, the best you can hope is that they are going to do exactly what they are told to do. They are processors on a production line.
Read this....
I'm not saying that a Viper or a Neon is built with poor quality. I'm saying that the quality is what DC pays for and they are only going to pay for as much as is needed.
Craig 201 MPH
Enthusiast
Take your blinders off and take a look. Don't you remember the stories that popped up about people's engines having 1 cylinder head missing valve guides? It's been brought up more than once. The viper is a beautiful car but next time you're at a viper event have a look at how well body panels line up specifically the bottom of the hood in front of the door and how parallell it is to the side sill.
I also love that picture someone posted of a GTS with the rear facia removed exposing a piece of duct tape holding wires in place. I doubt that $hit would fly at AMG.
I would bet money that if a Viper was put head to head in a quality control comparison against the mighty toyota corolla the Viper would lose badly.
It's just little things such as foam insulation sticking out of places in the car, carpet that doesn't lay flat, paint on body panels that doesn't match the other body panels.
If they're employed by the UAW you've got a problem.
You guys have no idea how many visits DC employees have made to Toyota plants. Both in the US and Japan. In addition the previous DC VP of Quality came from ... drum roll please ... Toyota. In addition several previous Toyota employees provide a significant amount of technical support via contracts. Each OEM studies the others (with on-site visits) on an ongoing basis. Taking the parts that they believe will help them. Now how much of that reaches a small volume manufacturing location is debatable as there are very few comparisons to be made. But clearly it is referenced in daily life with larger programs.
The Toyota manufacturing process is very well known but not very well replicated. Several Harvard case studies have been made on that topic. A joint venture engine plant in Brazil with BMW (that makes the Mini engine) was a complete wire to wire attempt to replicate the most important aspects of the Toyota system. Such that even high ranking Toyota management toured the plant there to evaluate the progress and to assist identifying where it missed vital steps. This is all published in a Harvard review for those of you that would like the truth rather than drivel. And yes even the andon board concept of Toyota was utilized (system of identifying assembly, part supply, tooling, gauging and other station to station needs).
