Exactly at this point there have been approx 500 Gen 5 sold to date .VERY VERY few buyers will risk DEVALUING such an expensive car by ATTEMPTING to throw an an aftermarket BLOWER (oppertune name )kit on it I get upset when people post rebuttals BASED UPON THEIR EXTREMELY LIMITED EXPERIANCE RUNNING THEIR PARTICULAR CARS .Too too many times i have seen buyers pay tens of thousands of dollars for these kits only to be AFRAID to use them . The buyer paid 30k (kit upgraded motor )Buyer took the thing to the track Buyer (for one of a thousand reasons) DETONATED the motor. Buyer now has another 12k bill to fix DETONATED motor Buyer is afraid it is going to happen again and doesnt know what to do .Buyer then tries to unload car only to be penilized because of the aftermarket SC application. A very close friend of mine owns one of the top selling Viper Dealers in history If a seller ATTEMPTS to trade in any carwith an AFTERMARKET SC kit he will not take it in for any price because of the reliability concerns .
AutoGuide on HP Situation Viper & Challenger Hellcat
- Thread starter Grisoman
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"Too many times"? How many times exactly? If you are going to bash an entire aftermarket industry, I suggest that you post real data to back it up. An installed stock Paxton kit on a Gen III did not cost anywhere near 30K. A 30K application is a tuner car with usually a more agressive calibration. I have not been writing about those. They are a completely different story.
Bob ONCE again you commentating on things from your EXTREMELY LIMITED experiance with your car in a racetrack type senerio. MANY people that do have issues dont exactly want to publicize them because their embarrassed at the money they paid for something they cant use They also NOW want to unload the thing Apparently you have never detonated a motor because if you have you would know that detonation happens in the wink of an eye .In factory application the FOOLS ()as you put it dont have to worry about such things as the cars are engineered to take it
Bob THERES NO WARRANTY on =the application GUESS WHY In a bolt on blower application its let the buyer beware. I dont care who builds it if you bump a heatsoaked bolt on application engine off the rev limiter a few times you will have an issue (the fact that i have to point this out to you in itself states your true experiance with this type of application. ANY GUY who TRUELY runs his bolt on application hard knows this from blowing the thing up ) If you have ever been to a Mag test session whatever tuner is there will INSIST on cooling their car down between runs In a factory engineered car you dont have to worry BECAUSE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS were put in the R&D to insure that doesnt happen because they have to warranty it .
ts very costly as it has to be engineered to survive 70 plus hours run at yellowline on a dyno (In relation Ford spent 1 million dollars on just dialing in the air fuel on the Mustang platform) Remember there is a full warranty involved . Total Rand D along with the EPA cert cost is prob in the millions compared to a Paxton Bolt on kit in the 10s of thousands LOL Its like saying a steak from Ruth Chris is equal to a Burger from McDonalds because both of them come from a cow
Ps you have some of the best engineers in the world building the motor from the ground up be Included in the build are all the precautions needed to keep the engine SAFE . The computer recognizes detonation from bad gas,lean conditions and corrects before anything bad happens .With the exception of BOBS car (which did such things )the bolt on kits dont have the Rand D money in them to do such things
There's plenty of engine builders out there that could put together a package that could withstand anything the average Joe could throw at it. I read somewhere that Nelson Racing Engines in California puts out a twin turbo LSX daily driver that makes 6 to 700 rwhp on pump gas and gets well over 20mpg. They ran that engine for like 3 or 4 days at redline and it didn't blow...tore it apart and it still looked good.
The package has to be fully warrantyied and thats the kicker .In 2003 VCA pres Joe Houss and i were invited to attend a test of the prototype of the Ford GT .(My buddy test drives for Ford on the side is responsible for drag tesiting their big power stuff )Ford was testing a f ratios in regard to hp .They also had him running BIG TIME DRAG RACING DURABILITY TESTS . Two full tract trailers full of parts and 15-20 Engineers and high level Ford execs includ John Coletti (BOB was invited but was running his bolt on kit and couldnt make it)This one test alone was 250k and it was one in 100 literally .The tuners just dont have that kind of money resource
PS they literally had him pound that prototype into the ground ( SUPERCOMPUTER connected to everything ) hundreds of runs in every concievable driving senerio possible. Slicks, Street tires , this af-boost leve.l How many runs leaving at this rpm point will it take for the cluth tranny to go . Throw a new tranny in the car Throw a clutch in there Raise the boost to 14 lbs They had pages of testing criteria all predicated upon what does it take to break the car
Theres a lot of PR stuff in there as most FGT buyers own other Ford Vech The last thing Ford ever wants is a recall bad motor ect senerio on a 150 k car as bad publicity destroys future sales
What you are missing is that you do not have to bump off your rev limiter. It is your choice. I had the Paxton limited drivetrain warranty on my prior car so they do exist. However, they are not offered for the tuner package which is utilized by tuners to vary the installation in ways that Paxton could not stand behind for obvious reasons.
No one is questioning the value of OEM testing and applications. You are still missing the point. The stock Paxton kit, with the excellent calibration available from Dan Cragin, could give consistent and reliable performance on the road course and the strip if used within its performance parameters. The stock Gen III, per the magazines did 12.2 in the quarter. The stock Gen III with a stock Paxton kit, depending on the weather, could do high 10's and low to mid elevens. Could you blow up an altered car more easily than an OEM car? Sure, if you ignore what it is and is not capable of doing.
And one more time. I am not discussing tuner cars. You keep ignoring that. Ask Mark Jorgensen how many stock Paxton kits they installed at Woodhouse on Gen III cars without any additional modifications and without calibrations that were too aggressive and, of those, how many had issues. You will see that those cars that had the stock kit installed with a conservative calibration had few problems if driven within their capabilities.
Tuner cars are altered far more and of course the probablility of system failure, especially when there has not been any significant testing, is far greater.
Well developed, tested and engineered kits by reputable firms like Paxton, Protech, Eaton, etc. can be fun, durable and reliable if used and maintained within their capabilities. There will always be fools who ignore the limitations of their car; exceed the recommended operating parameters and blow the engine. That is just human nature. Some people expect too much. Some tuners promise too much.
No one is questioning the value of OEM testing and applications. You are still missing the point. The stock Paxton kit, with the excellent calibration available from Dan Cragin, could give consistent and reliable performance on the road course and the strip if used within its performance parameters. The stock Gen III, per the magazines did 12.2 in the quarter. The stock Gen III with a stock Paxton kit, depending on the weather, could do high 10's and low to mid elevens. Could you blow up an altered car more easily than an OEM car? Sure, if you ignore what it is and is not capable of doing.
And one more time. I am not discussing tuner cars. You keep ignoring that. Ask Mark Jorgensen how many stock Paxton kits they installed at Woodhouse on Gen III cars without any additional modifications and without calibrations that were too aggressive and, of those, how many had issues. You will see that those cars that had the stock kit installed with a conservative calibration had few problems if driven within their capabilities.
Tuner cars are altered far more and of course the probablility of system failure, especially when there has not been any significant testing, is far greater.
Well developed, tested and engineered kits by reputable firms like Paxton, Protech, Eaton, etc. can be fun, durable and reliable if used and maintained within their capabilities. There will always be fools who ignore the limitations of their car; exceed the recommended operating parameters and blow the engine. That is just human nature. Some people expect too much. Some tuners promise too much.
I don't think anyone is arguing that a blower kit for the Gen 5 is more likely to come from a tuning shop rather than Mopar or SRT. The point of contention here is whether or not we'll get an "official" kit from Mopar for the gen 5 and it looks like the answer is no, simply because they would not be able to sell enough of them at a high enough price to make a profit.
Bob you dont to bump it off the rev limiter ( Bob you inexperiance is comical )the best drivers out there on occasion BUMP A CAR OFF THE REV LIMITER The point is one can take a factory car and bump it off the rev limiter all day long and NOTHING WILL HAPPEN BECAUSE ITS ENGINEERED FOR SUCH THING .You really are offering an opinion baed on NO PRACTICAL KNOWLEDGE on the subject (IF i have to point out that the best drivers sometimes hit the rev limiter )thats drag racing 101
PS BOB you mentioned Mark Jonsion (opened the door ) If you were to mention to Mark the driver in question here and the intended test criteria Mark AS WOULD Dan Craigen would tell you the application is in no way ENGINEERED TO COMPETEWITH A FACTORY ONE Dan Craigen and i were doing business together(with my Gen 2 )Before you ever SAT IN A VIPER While we are on the tuner list you may want to get an opinion from Doug Levin (knows a ton about SC Vipers )LOL From first hand experiance i can tell you flat out Doug will say not to let Evin hotlap a tuner car .
So, what's more dangerous...a car with a crappy engine build on a conservative tune, or an engine with the best of everything on a conservative tune? Point I'm trying to make is the manufacturer (SRT) could easily build a FI engine that made huge power, and was efficient on a conservative....locked tune. If they are going to lock it down from modification, they need to lock it down at 680-700 rwhp.
Yes SRT could easily match Ford Chevs y expertise IF they had mlctory doesions of R@D money they dont.Conservative tune ect the problem is in a bolt on app again there is no money to impliment the saftey measures the factory employees If the engine goes Paxton doesnt have to pick up the cost the factory app does
Dont get me wrong in many a senerio a bolt on app is fine as it all depends on the owners intended use. I have a few friends that had ZERO NO ISSUiES with their set up at all . They bench race dy no sheets against each other Once in a while they take the thing threw the gears (back off at 5k rpm ).If they go to the track the car sits untill it cools off ect
Right now my old tuner has a customer he just finished a Viper truck for( CP Pistons Crower Rods Custom Blower Cam Full Heads Gigantic intercooler )On hot rod builder Bob Idas dyno it was near 950 to the tire. The guy wants me to get it run Even if i promise to have them (mag guy )behave with the thing tuner says no way.With a private session since there is no waiting in line- inital run lay down a great number right back to it heatsoaked things get carryied
Once again you do not seem to understand. Your responses indicate that you seem to have either not read the whole post or, for some reasom, do not understand them. This too is odd and peculiar behavior.
Just because you can do somerthing, does not mean you have to do it. If you know a modified engine will not endure being bumped off the rev limiter, then do not bump it off the rev limiter. A person can still have fun even if their car is not the fastest car.
I have three NHRA issued licenses: Supergas, Supercomp and Top Dragster with my best result being shown in my signature. What I have learned is to drive a vehicle within its operating parameters. Those who do not are not capable drivers. It does not take a special skill to blow an engine. And, unless your opponent blows his before you blow yours, blowing an engine is never going to be a winning strategy.
On the other hand, if an installer or tuner promises that a modified engine can take a particular operating environment and that representation proves to be wrong, then it is not the driver's fault.
Mark Jorgensen does not claim to be a tuner. Mark's strength is that he tries to sort out what is and is not a reliable modification and then installs same in a very precise and careful manner. To my knowledge, Mark's people do not recalibrate. That, if someone wants it, is done elsewhere. Mark can jump in and correct me if I am wrong.
Just because you can do somerthing, does not mean you have to do it. If you know a modified engine will not endure being bumped off the rev limiter, then do not bump it off the rev limiter. A person can still have fun even if their car is not the fastest car.
I have three NHRA issued licenses: Supergas, Supercomp and Top Dragster with my best result being shown in my signature. What I have learned is to drive a vehicle within its operating parameters. Those who do not are not capable drivers. It does not take a special skill to blow an engine. And, unless your opponent blows his before you blow yours, blowing an engine is never going to be a winning strategy.
On the other hand, if an installer or tuner promises that a modified engine can take a particular operating environment and that representation proves to be wrong, then it is not the driver's fault.
Mark Jorgensen does not claim to be a tuner. Mark's strength is that he tries to sort out what is and is not a reliable modification and then installs same in a very precise and careful manner. To my knowledge, Mark's people do not recalibrate. That, if someone wants it, is done elsewhere. Mark can jump in and correct me if I am wrong.
Bob do you work for Ford test driving Point is the VERY BEST DRIVERS out there do and on occasion BUMP CARS OFF THE REV LIMITER Your expertise has NOTHING to do with drag racing STOCK PROD CARS.If every single car under warranty BLEW UP because somebody ran one heatsoaked and bumped it off the rev limiter CHEVY AND FORD WOULD HAVE LARGE WARRANTY ISSUES Idont care if Marks a tuner or not as hes experianced enough to know you cant get in any way compare a bolt on applicationwith that of a fact application
"you cant get in any way compare a bolt on application with that of a fact application" No one is saying they are equal. You do not seem to understand that regardless of how it is stated. You do not seem to comprehend the fact that thousands of people mod their cars of many types and brands; understand the performance capabilities and limitations of their modded cars ;and,support a large, multi billion dolar after market industry doing so. For these people, perfection in all operating environments is not required. They can, and do, live with the limitations of the aftermarket applications.
You also do not seem to understand that only a ***** would run a car that is heat soaked and bounce it off the rev limiter if he or she knows that the engine, as modified, is not capable of operating safely under those circumstances. Get it?
There is alot of enjoyment doing the research; assessing the relative benefits and detriments of various modification; and modding a car. You may not have expereinced this and that's fine. The experience is not for everyone.
Your life and interests appear to be closely alligned with new cars, car magazines and new car testers. Their business is based on stressing and promoting the "next new thing". We all get that.
As far as my experince with "stock production cars", I have been doing acceleration and velocity therapy since the age of 11 starting with Go carts, then Barracuda Formula S ( the first production one that was available in Massachusetts at the time), 1961 Ford 390 Interceptor, Plymouth with 426 wedge engine, and many others through the decades. 55 years of same to be exact. All of that experince has tought me to know and respect the limitations of the vehicle. Many do not and pay the price.
So we all understand your bias against modded cars because they might not be as reliable or durable as OEM tested cars. We really do. But you do not undersatnd that we do not really care about your bias and repeatedly stating it over and over again ad nauseum
does not make it any more effective.
You also do not seem to understand that only a ***** would run a car that is heat soaked and bounce it off the rev limiter if he or she knows that the engine, as modified, is not capable of operating safely under those circumstances. Get it?
There is alot of enjoyment doing the research; assessing the relative benefits and detriments of various modification; and modding a car. You may not have expereinced this and that's fine. The experience is not for everyone.
Your life and interests appear to be closely alligned with new cars, car magazines and new car testers. Their business is based on stressing and promoting the "next new thing". We all get that.
As far as my experince with "stock production cars", I have been doing acceleration and velocity therapy since the age of 11 starting with Go carts, then Barracuda Formula S ( the first production one that was available in Massachusetts at the time), 1961 Ford 390 Interceptor, Plymouth with 426 wedge engine, and many others through the decades. 55 years of same to be exact. All of that experince has tought me to know and respect the limitations of the vehicle. Many do not and pay the price.
So we all understand your bias against modded cars because they might not be as reliable or durable as OEM tested cars. We really do. But you do not undersatnd that we do not really care about your bias and repeatedly stating it over and over again ad nauseum
does not make it any more effective.
Ps Bob one of the drivers in question (you claim doesnt know what hes doing because he bumps cars off the rev limiter ) just won his class in the ONE LAP OF AMERICA . He was handpicked by a guy named Jack Rousch to drive for team Rousch . Bob you may wish to drop Mr Roush a note REGARDING such a choice Bob kiding aside to win your class in the ONE LAP says it all
You are one frustrating dude. Read the post again. I am sure that Rousch and the driver both knew that the car was capable of enduring same. As you know, or should know, they do extensive testing on their vehicles and know their operating limitations before each race.
Bob because you bought a trailer QUEEN and had o issues doesnt mean its all good Obviously your dead wrong because if you were correct the factory would not spend millions of dollars on the FAILSAFES that they employ( .If customers were DRIVING LIKE BOB there would be no need for such costly failsafe)Fifteen years ago McMULLEN Argus featured 40-50 pages of aftermaket tuner adds Today its one third of that because of the STOCK HORSEPOWER RELIABILITY FACTOR (including the warranty aspect )
B ob since your in Florida instead of talking on your computer wy dont you let me Gen 5 tested so you can see EXACTLY what iam talking about .BEFORE you come up with a laim excuse they are not going to break your car .Over the years MANY VCA EX (includ PRES Joe Houss )have had their cars
run. I know you prefer to TALK on your computer instead of going to the track but Bradaton is literally minutes from you .Lets hear the excuse now Bob
Paul Hawker
Enthusiast
Enjoy you two dinosaurs going back and forth.
I propose to settle this argument with a test of speed at the upcoming VOI in Texas. It might be on an autocross, drag strip or even on the magnificent COTA (would be hard to pull off)
It should be a run what you brung Viper, and the loser has to buy the winner a beer.
Wonder if you guys might actually like and respect each other in person, without the forum pressure to win an argument...take it to the track.
I propose to settle this argument with a test of speed at the upcoming VOI in Texas. It might be on an autocross, drag strip or even on the magnificent COTA (would be hard to pull off)
It should be a run what you brung Viper, and the loser has to buy the winner a beer.
Wonder if you guys might actually like and respect each other in person, without the forum pressure to win an argument...take it to the track.
