Belanger headers and stock Gen 3 cats?
- Thread starter Herc
- Start date
ViperGeorge
Enthusiast
I was just about to ask the same thing except for a Gen 4. I'd also like to know what the HP impact of this setup might be since the OEM cats would be somewhat more restrictive.
steve911
Enthusiast
I have almost what you speak. I gutted the secondary cats left the shell, running primary cats yet. Car runs great, a little louder but not bad, even my wife doesnt complain.
Nice to hear from you again. still at HAFB?
Yep, stopped flying a few months ago, retire from the Reserves in a few months then will have more time to drive.
I was told by the local Viper guy, Hinckley Race shop, that I would lose about 15hp if I go back to stock cats. Have to wait and see how
loud this thing is going to be when it shows up.
Herc
Allan
Enthusiast
Why would anybody run cats with expensive headers..........I don't get it... 
...and why is anybody concerned about how loud it is going to be....
...and why is anybody concerned about how loud it is going to be....Why would anybody run cats with expensive headers..........I don't get it...
To each his own, everybody has a different opinion of loud and good sounding exhaust. Just like I wonder why anybody would put Aldans or some other cheap lowering option
on a Viper. Besides, some states do have rules on emissions and cats, why not just run the headers right out behind the front wheel like the Comp Coupe?
Herc
P.S. I wore ear plugs when I flew a Viper, don't want to wear them when I drive one.
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JTS VENOM PERFORMANCE
Enthusiast
if it helps we are installing a set of belangers with high flow cats on a 97, we are awaiting heads from GG, soon as it gets done I can post a sound clip.
Thanks, I'm sure a lot of guys would like to hear it. Mine will be here in a few weeks so I will know then, as I said my Viper guy said it would cost about 15hp to go back to
stock cats.
Herc
JTS VENOM PERFORMANCE
Enthusiast
not a problem good sir, and yessir usually doing cats wil cost you ten to fifteen
Yes, you can use the stock primary cats and they will work great and flow well, plus they most likely will outlast the aftermarket cats. You cannot package all 4 cats back in the system but you can modify the secondary cats for a 3 inch inlet and put them in the system. Most likely you will pass a tailpipe emission test as well.
Thanks Dan,
I was told that your shop supplied the ecu flash for this car after the previous owner sent in the engine specs.
Herc
Been there and done that. Want to learn from my expensive lesson, you cannot pass strict (where state puts on dyno and plugs into computer) emissions with hi-flows nor just two primary cats (stock swapped). Only will pass with stock 4 cat system. Also will fail on visual inspection as front O2 sensors are not in collector, but only sampled off one header tube.
Car will run great and pick up tons of power, however will NOT pass emissions. Talked right with Dick Winkles over dinner at length, no 2 cat high flow systems will pass 2012 test criteria, at least GEN III and IV. Despite what header manufacturers claim, it can't be done. Ended up selling my car over this EPA crap and it was running awesome beforehand. Just way to big of a hassle.
Car will run great and pick up tons of power, however will NOT pass emissions. Talked right with Dick Winkles over dinner at length, no 2 cat high flow systems will pass 2012 test criteria, at least GEN III and IV. Despite what header manufacturers claim, it can't be done. Ended up selling my car over this EPA crap and it was running awesome beforehand. Just way to big of a hassle.
ViperGeorge
Enthusiast
What about other header brands? I seem to remember seeing that the ACR-X headers put the O2 in the collector. Are other brands shorter? Would another type of header allow installation of both primary and secondary OEM cats? Rick, its your experience that has made me hesitant about installing headers on my ACR. While my car is registered in MT where there is no emission testing I think it would impact resale if I modified it so that it wouldn't pass in many other states.
George;
That last trip up to Idaho Springs a few months ago, when I sat at the dinner table with Dick Winkles, we had an indepth conversation on this very issue (initiated by me of course). According to Dick, we can change the cat-back out to most anything and it will be fine with EPA. The header manifolds and 4 cats that came from the factory are the max they can squeeze out of the car and still pass current EPA emissions, so that is where we are at. There is just no room with other header designs to have the four cats present to pass EPA. For off-road where EPA does not apply, the headers and two cat system will dramatically increase torque which I saw with my GEN III when I had it, but unfortunately the penalty is it will not pass the EPA rolling dyno tests. No non-factory Headers out there will pass EPA. It also has to do with the factory manifolds keeping the Cats hot enough to do their job and each cat pair is needed to do their job.
Had I known this, I would not have bought the headers for the car and just had a cat back installed.
As far as resale, if you have your stock manifolds and cats, then you can sell those with the car when it is that time, or swap them out for factory set-up when it is that time to sell and sell the car factory. Gives you a chance to sell the headers and cat back seperately.
I just hope no ones else goes through what I had to with their car. I can tell you the whole process I went through, the most difficult and frustrating part was not dealing with the EPA and ................................I will just leave it at that.
That last trip up to Idaho Springs a few months ago, when I sat at the dinner table with Dick Winkles, we had an indepth conversation on this very issue (initiated by me of course). According to Dick, we can change the cat-back out to most anything and it will be fine with EPA. The header manifolds and 4 cats that came from the factory are the max they can squeeze out of the car and still pass current EPA emissions, so that is where we are at. There is just no room with other header designs to have the four cats present to pass EPA. For off-road where EPA does not apply, the headers and two cat system will dramatically increase torque which I saw with my GEN III when I had it, but unfortunately the penalty is it will not pass the EPA rolling dyno tests. No non-factory Headers out there will pass EPA. It also has to do with the factory manifolds keeping the Cats hot enough to do their job and each cat pair is needed to do their job.
Had I known this, I would not have bought the headers for the car and just had a cat back installed.
As far as resale, if you have your stock manifolds and cats, then you can sell those with the car when it is that time, or swap them out for factory set-up when it is that time to sell and sell the car factory. Gives you a chance to sell the headers and cat back seperately.
I just hope no ones else goes through what I had to with their car. I can tell you the whole process I went through, the most difficult and frustrating part was not dealing with the EPA and ................................I will just leave it at that.
SoCal Rebell
Enthusiast
I put a full Belanger system in, well actually it was Dan Cragin that did the work way back in 2000 on my black 2000 RT/10. Belanger headers & 3" catbacks and Randomtech 3" in/out cats, though a Gen II here in Cali the toughest emmisions state it passed the sniff test and visual check.
Do you still have your hearing
Waiting to see what this coupe I just bought is going to sound like.Herc
Well than Cali is not the toughest anymore. Depending on county, but Douglas County, Colorado has 7 minute rolling dyno on a tuned up emissions dyno with full exhaust colection system all while plugged into the states computer. Visual inspection for O2 sensor locations, correct number and correct number of factory cats, with a wrap up of gas cap and system pressure test.
Nowhere to hide, and all new dyno run programs as on 01/01/2012. There is no way around it, headers and only two hi flow cats on a Viper in Colorado (Douglas County) will not pass, period. This will all be coming to an EPA station near you sooner or later. What a pain it was understand all this and lots of money to figure it out.
Nowhere to hide, and all new dyno run programs as on 01/01/2012. There is no way around it, headers and only two hi flow cats on a Viper in Colorado (Douglas County) will not pass, period. This will all be coming to an EPA station near you sooner or later. What a pain it was understand all this and lots of money to figure it out.
