Brake Booster and Overheating problems at the track

Early93Viper

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I tracked my old GEN I constantly and had Engine Overheating problems as well Brake Booster problems. (Where the brake booster doesn't seem to kick in and when you push the brake hard very little brakeing power is actually applied to the brakes) I thought my GEN II would do better but even with and aftermarket radiator and a fan that kicks in at 190 I am still having the Very same problems with my GTS as I did with my GEN I.

Now it was 92 degrees at the track (Heartland Park Topeka) but I am just getting about 3 laps in before I start having these problems. Please Help. :)
 
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Early93Viper

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What temps are you seeing?

Stock brake system? How old is the fluid?

I saw 240 degrees engine temp (It climbed up there pretty quick) and I just flushed my fluid last week on the stock Brake system. Although I am a cheap son of a ***** and bought Prestone synthetic DOT 4 Brake Fluid. It has a 510F Boiling Point looked pretty good but think I might change to Motul for the next track day. Do you think that could of atributed to the problem?
 

klamathpro

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Ok, here is my experience....
On the GEN1 I had to go with a 175 degree thermostat. I only use Motul 600 and I upgraded my brake booster to a used GEN2 booster and what a difference. Do NOT use cheap brake fluid, you will regret it or could lose your car. Never run on brake fluid that is over 2 months old. I also use 15w50 Mobile 1 racing oil as per Dick Winkles, the guy that helped design the engine. All my overheating and brake issues went away, even at a 95 degree track day with 15 min sessions. While I don't track my GEN2, I have the PCM flashed by ROE to turn on the fan sooner, like at 180 and it never overheats in bumper-to-bumper parking lots like the Woodward Dream Cruise. Part of your problem could be your system isn't properly burped of all the air.
 
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REDSLED

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I tracked my old GEN I constantly and had Engine Overheating problems as well Brake Booster problems. (Where the brake booster doesn't seem to kick in and when you push the brake hard very little brakeing power is actually applied to the brakes) I thought my GEN II would do better but even with and aftermarket radiator and a fan that kicks in at 190 I am still having the Very same problems with my GTS as I did with my GEN I.

Now it was 92 degrees at the track (Heartland Park Topeka) but I am just getting about 3 laps in before I start having these problems. Please Help. :)
The problem is airflow to the radiator, not the radiator itself. I have used stock radiators on my race car for 8+ years with little no cooling issues. You need to direct more air to the radiator. The Roe Racing Front Fascia kit would be a good start. You also should never skimp on the brake fluid. Don't be cheap in that area. Motul (good) Castrol SRF (best) Do you have adequate brake ducting for your calipers and rotors? That is a must if you are pushing the car hard. Also, winding out the motor and keeping the RPMs high will over heat the car. There might be spots on the track where an upshift to save RPMs may not cost you time and will help to lower temps. Wrapping the brake booster and brake fluid reservoir is also a cheap alternative as well. Best of luck.
 
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Early93Viper

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I do have the Porsche air deflectors for my brakes. Also am going to test the check valve on my brake booster to see if that might be the problem. Never heard if wrapping my brakes I have heard of wrapping the headers. (Which is another option I am looking at) Do you have a pic of brakes that are wrapped?
 

REDSLED

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I do have the Porsche air deflectors for my brakes. Also am going to test the check valve on my brake booster to see if that might be the problem. Never heard if wrapping my brakes I have heard of wrapping the headers. (Which is another option I am looking at) Do you have a pic of brakes that are wrapped?
Not wrapping the brakes, but wrapping the brake fluid reservoir itself. Porsche air deflectors will not be enough for the Viper. They work for the Porsche as the front ends are light due to the engine in the rear. You need proper ducting to reduce caliper and rotor temps. Best of luck. :)
 

mtmclaughlin

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The braking issue you described does not seem to be fluid-related or Viper-specific. When you get water in your fluid (or when you are being really crazy and boil fluid), bubbles form in the lines near or in the calipers. These bubbles are compressible and should make your pedal feel squishy, but your brakes will still be effective. Klamathpro has a good point: change your fluid often because it is hygroscopic and absorbs water rapidly, and it looks like you did that. Don't leave the cap off of your reservoir and toss old brake fluid after it's been opened for a while. I think your brake problem sounds more like pad issues though:

The scary(er) kind of brake fade is when your pads get so hot that they vaporize on contact with the rotor. The vapor builds a barrier between the rotor and the pad, acting as a lubricant. You can press as hard as you want, but unless you can get that gas away from the contact surfaces and cool things down, you won't have brakes. Slotted rotors help evacuate the gasses when your pads vaporize. Drilled rotors don't absorb as much thermal energy before they heat up because there is less material, so I'm not a huge fan of them. I've heard the argument that they cool faster, but rapid cooling and heating cycles aren't good for them anyway (they can explode). Drilled rotors are lighter though, so if you don't mind replacing them frequently they could be a good way to go. Try different pad compounds in the mean time as well. Stock pads on most cars (even sports cars) don't always seem to be up to track duty. I run a hybrid set on my Miata with a more track-oriented Hawk compound on the front axle and Hawk HP+ (or HPS, I can never remember which one is the auto-x pad... it's that one) on the rear. I did this for an adjusted bias and it has worked out well for me.

If I'm telling you something you already know, I apologize. It sounds very much like you are experiencing brake fade. Cooling things down is a must as others have said--so is putting on hardware that can deal with the heat. Keep it shiny side up! :)
 

GTS Dean

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Gen 1 cars' boosters were not very good. A major braking improvement can be gained by using a Gen 2 booster on the Gen 1.

'92-'93 cars are ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL to elevate the front end A BUNCH when you are filling/burping the water from the cooling system. It wasn't until '94 that the header tanks appeared on the RF fender. Also, make sure the heater valve is open and that you bleed trapped air from the heater core.
 

jckrieger

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My Gen 2 also appears to have brake booster issues. The brakes work fine for auto-x racing, but I notice when coming to a stop the initial pedal application applies a lot more brake power than the subsequent presses. It appears the booster doesn't recharge the vacuum as quickly as I would expect. I need to do some additional investigation, but it's absolutely not related to fade.I'm guessing the check valve is sticking closed and not allowing the engine to pull vacuum on the booster as it is lost.
 
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Early93Viper

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The braking issue you described does not seem to be fluid-related or Viper-specific. When you get water in your fluid (or when you are being really crazy and boil fluid), bubbles form in the lines near or in the calipers. These bubbles are compressible and should make your pedal feel squishy, but your brakes will still be effective. Klamathpro has a good point: change your fluid often because it is hygroscopic and absorbs water rapidly, and it looks like you did that. Don't leave the cap off of your reservoir and toss old brake fluid after it's been opened for a while. I think your brake problem sounds more like pad issues though: The scary(er) kind of brake fade is when your pads get so hot that they vaporize on contact with the rotor. The vapor builds a barrier between the rotor and the pad, acting as a lubricant. You can press as hard as you want, but unless you can get that gas away from the contact surfaces and cool things down, you won't have brakes. Slotted rotors help evacuate the gasses when your pads vaporize. Drilled rotors don't absorb as much thermal energy before they heat up because there is less material, so I'm not a huge fan of them. I've heard the argument that they cool faster, but rapid cooling and heating cycles aren't good for them anyway (they can explode). Drilled rotors are lighter though, so if you don't mind replacing them frequently they could be a good way to go. Try different pad compounds in the mean time as well. Stock pads on most cars (even sports cars) don't always seem to be up to track duty. I run a hybrid set on my Miata with a more track-oriented Hawk compound on the front axle and Hawk HP+ (or HPS, I can never remember which one is the auto-x pad... it's that one) on the rear. I did this for an adjusted bias and it has worked out well for me. If I'm telling you something you already know, I apologize. It sounds very much like you are experiencing brake fade. Cooling things down is a must as others have said--so is putting on hardware that can deal with the heat. Keep it shiny side up! :)
The last thing you described with the pads getting so hot the vaporize on contact with rotors that's what it feels like. No matter how hard I push its just not going to stop. I have brand new EBC yellow brake pads and stock rottors. Can you describe this in greater detail? (This is the first I have heard of this kind of brake fade) Are slotted rottors the best way to combat this problem?
 

mtmclaughlin

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OK, so you can take a four-step approach here.

First, I would start with the pad. It's the cheapest way to start and I think it is the most direct. You need to make sure that the materials in your braking system are built to operate in the environment in which they are subjected. If your stock pads work efficiently from temperatures x degrees to x+500, and you are operating them at x+600, then you are using the wrong pads. Buy a compound that is designed to operate in, say, x+200 degrees to x+1000. What I am saying here, is that you are exceeding the temperature range of your pads.

More information on that: Yours are designed as "street / track" pads which means they are designed to work without warming up and that their temperature range is somewhere below freezing to several hundred degrees. This makes them ideal for driving on the street and autocross duty. I would start by finding a more aggressive compound. Be careful though. You may require track only pads, which I recommend, but you CANNOT drive with these on the street and you MUST warm them up before they work. Track pads alone may solve all of your overheating problems.

Second, you may wish to consider slotted rotors. They probably won't solve the fade issue by themselves though because while they may evacuate gas from between the surfaces, your pads will still be blazing hot and won't be as effective. Most racers I have encountered, including late 1990s Mustang GT endurance racers, use blank rotors (not slotted, not drilled). But if the pads alone aren't enough, this could help you. I use these weird-o ATE slotted rotors on my Miata that have some weird elliptical shapes slotted into them, but I really bought them because they had a really nice anti-rust coating on them. And they were affordable. I had fade issues just like you even with those rotors, until I went to my more aggressive compound.

Third, it seems as if you already have cool air being fed to your current setup. You might, if all else fails, consider running better air ducts to your brakes, but I am hesitant on this because I don't have any experience with it. Rapidly heating and then cooling steel can make it weaker. I think a rotor failure on a car is the scariest thing that can happen on a track. Seek professional help on this one before you make any changes.

Finally, and this should have been my first point, try racing slower. This can be facilitated by trading your Viper for my Miata. The Miata is nice and slow and doesn't have any braking issues, no matter how hard I try to make them fade. It's also a roadster, which is nice. When it rains at the track, it cools you off because many organizations won't let you run with your top up unless you have a hard top. It also has flip-up headlights. I'm just sayin'... :)

I should mention that the compound I went with is aggressive enough that street tires cannot fade them on the track, but they are streetable. But any more aggressive and they couldn't be used on the street. Race tires will exceed their capacity though, and I will be forced to move to a track-only pad which has to be warmed up first when I start putting race tires on it. They might be Hawk HT-10s, but I don't remember. If you do find a pad that is super aggressive, though, be prepared for it to be noisy and dusty. :)
 
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Early93Viper

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Big thanks mtmclaughlin for taking your time to help me and your insight!:2tu: I think you described my problem and solution and I really appreciate that. :) I am thinking of changing to Brakeman 3. What do you think about brakeman 3? Do you think it will solve or at least help solve my problem?

And does anyone know if Woodhouse still sells them?
 

mtmclaughlin

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Unfortunately, I don't know anything about that pad. However, they cite its ability to work at a very high temperature effectively. It never hurts to give them a try. I'd try calling the manufacturer or the vendor to see what they recommend. They can often provide great insight into which of their products will suit you best.

Be careful while you learn a new pad compound though. Go easy on them for a session or two and work your way up in speed until you are comfortable with their performance. Also, follow all bedding-in procedures. These procedures differ for different pads, even within the same manufacturer, so look for instructions in the package.

Good luck, and keep it shiny side up!
 

AZTVR

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I am thinking of changing to Brakeman 3. What do you think about brakeman 3? Do you think it will solve or at least help solve my problem?
I have run Brakeman 3s and did not have issues. I liked them; but, again, it all depends on how fast you are and what your braking "technique" is.
 

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