C6 to **** the doors off competition- By Bob Lutz

[Phoenix SRT]

Yes, but you are also asserting that the Z06 is as fast or faster than the Viper is, and that's not really true overall.

-Dean.

All I'm saying is that there are enough circumstances under which the Z06 is apparently faster, or nearly so, than the Viper than DC should have made the Viper faster to begin with and certainly should take care of the problem immediately. BTW, it's not like GingerMan is an autocross course, for gosh sake. It's not Road America, but it is a genuine road course and the Viper should crush the Z06.

 

[Viperfreak2]

One (now) GM guy who's trying to sell the Vette. 10 years ago he was tryin to sell the Dodge. Back then the diff. between the Viper and the Vette was only 25 HP. ZR-1 vs genI. and I think he used to say the Viper would **** the doors off the Vette then. Depends on whos signing Lutzs paychecks I guess. Everyone has this image (a good thing) that the Viper should 'crush' everything else. Sorry, it may win performance contests, but with all the high performance cars now available that'll do 0-60 under 5 seconds (Subarus, Mitsubishis, Mercedes etc) one slow shift in either a Viper or Vette and these guys will be breathing down your tailpipe, or sidepipe. After 100 it's no contest, but that's not your everyday stoplight drags. When I do show up at the drag strip, a lot of people expect me to crush everything I come up against. Hey, it's a VIPER! It doesn't always happen.

 

[OutThere]

Good points Viperfreak2. I think that's why DC needs to concern itself with things like the interior, build quality, dealership support and a move towards 600 HP. This isn't 1995 anymore, when the Viper was soooo much ahead of everything available for under $150,000. The cars are evolving and unless DC is considering a barebones, $60,000 750 HP version yestertech just won't do anymore (that would rock though!). Not with there being so many other cars to choose from that really aren't that far behind in terms of performance but are 1/2 or 1/3 the price.

Personally, I think that GM is going to release something epic with the new C6 Vette. They seem really into it and bringing in Lutz says a lot. A 400 HP coupe for > $45,000 and a 500 HP Z06 that weighs 3,000 lbs and cost > $60,000 would be something... It could do to the SRT what the Viper did to the ZR-1.

There's the dream garage then:

Gen1 Viper
C6 Z06
2005 Ford GT

 

[George Farris]

Remember how great Lutz told us the new GTO was going to be....it didn't happen with either looks or performance.

 

[Snakester]

Yeah, but the GTO was a serious butt-covering car after GM's beancounters canned the F-Bodies leaving zero competition in the pony-car market. And Ford wisely raised the bar, supercharging the Mustang, causing a terrible embarassment at GM, and chewing at the performance heels of the Corvette.

The GTO is going to be a great sedan compared to the sea of FWD rental car candidates that GM is mostly peddling.

So the GTO is to hide GM's mistake, and the Caddy CTS-V and C6 Corvette are designed to show that GM can actually build performance cars well.

While certainly some of Lutz's bragging is hype, DCX needs to make the Viper super-powerful again so that it isn't drawn into comparisons against the Corvette, or worse the Mustang, EVO, and WRX.

-Dean.

 

[MILES42]

First of all i didnt mean any harm by the " Truck Engine " I said that based on the creation of the Viper, and yes i know that the current gen Viper is much different than the first

Since one of the goals of the new team process was to prove that dowdy old Chrysler could move as fast as the Japanese, the developers of the Viper were put on a fast track in more ways than one. Within 12 months of the car's first auto show appearance a V-8-powered "mule" was being tested, but the Chrysler execs felt a V-8 just wouldn't do, since part of the effort's goal was to "out-Corvette Corvette." And in their heart of hearts the men of Team Viper knew their creation wouldn't be as sophisticated as Chevrolet's supercar. That meant a giant V-10, drawing on Chrysler's truck engine experience, should be brought into play. In May 1990, Chrysler announced it would build production Vipers and that they would be equipped with massive aluminum alloy V-10 engines. Incredibly, in December 1991, less than three years after the Viper concept had been unveiled, production Dodge Viper RT/10 roadsters rolled off the company's new Mack Avenue assembly line.

http://www.autoswalk.com/worgreatcard.html

 

[Tiepilot]

Poor ole Lutz having to talk proudly about a vette. Bwhahahha.

 

[OutThere]

I believe the engine for the new Ford GT comes from a truck as well. It's such a stupid criticism. But it was all the Corvette guys could come up with back then when the $55,000 Viper was out performing the $70,000 ZR-1. The result? Bye bye ZR-1. Maybe GM should have tried a truck engine in the Vette in the early 90s as well.

 

[Snakester]

The Viper was being created back when they were primarily building their 4-cyl K-Cars. After the V8 Viper prototype, they sent their (then) new truck V10 engine to Lamborghini (which was owned by Chrysler at the time) to be cast in aluminum and tweaked with new heads to go from a low revving, stump-pulling, truck engine into something more sporting.

But both of the two prototype Lambo engines (while producing enough power) were not deemed reliable enough for the kind of abuse the engine would likely get in a Corvette-like performance car.

So the Chrysler engineers started from scratch and built-up a fresh aluminum 8L V10 engine for the Viper, without any common parts shared from the truck engine.

Which is why the Viper truck engine story is a myth.

I'm not sure if the new Ford GT actually uses the same 5.4L V8 block as their trucks, but the supercharged 5.4L V8 in the Lightning has certainly shown it's worth, and I wouldn't worry if an engine was from a truck or a boat (or an OHV design) as long as it was reliable and powerful.

Complexity does not always win races.

-Dean.

 

[Paul Hawker]

Acording to Car and Driver the engine "is indeed based on a Ford design, but the block castings are supplied by Eck industries, a Wisconsin-based racing shop, and the 32-valve heads are from Process Prototype in Romulus, Michigan."
This car, while designed and assembled by Ford, has few Ford parts. Mostly shopped out to local suppliers. Just as the original GT 40 ran an English chassis.

I think that it is sad that Ford keeps saying they are better than the Modena, which was designed over 5 years ago. Lets see them compare themselves to current supercars, like Porche Carrera GT, Bugatti, Saleen, Mercedes, Ferrari Enzo, Lambo Murcielago, Gallardo,, Viper SRT-10 etc.
By the time it finally comes out, it will be outclassed by others in the supercar league.

 

[Phoenix SRT]

I think that it is sad that Ford keeps saying they are better than the Modena, which was designed over 5 years ago. Lets see them compare themselves to current supercars, like Porche Carrera GT, Bugatti, Saleen, Mercedes, Ferrari Enzo, Lambo Murcielago, Gallardo,, Viper SRT-10 etc.
By the time it finally comes out, it will be outclassed by others in the supercar league.

Let's compare apples to apples. The 360 is the current model Ferrari that is the GT competitor, so it is a fair comparison. True, the 360 may be an aging design. But, it is the current Ferrari in that market segment.

Even if the GT is not in the same performance league as the cars you mention, most of those cars cost multiples of what the GT costs. The Gallardo is a fair comparison, however, although I don't know how the two match up on the track.

As for the GT v. SRT match up, that isn't really fair. The two shouldn't be compared, as the Viper costs only about 60% of what the GT will supposedly sell for ($125-150k). If DC decides to up the price of the Viper to $125k, let alone $150k, I bet we'd see a much quicker and better handling car. (Maybe they would also deal with the turkey roaster that doubles as the cockpit. Anything is possible!)

It will be nice if it turns out that the SRT performs well enough to be on the same race track with the GT. But if it doesn't, it is hardly reason to be despondent; for the extra $45-70k, the GT should be faster. If it is not, and by a wide margin at that, then Ford should be embarrassed and no one should spend the extra money.

Speed=money. How fast do you want to go?

 

[Walt McFarland]

SRT-10;

Great minds think alike my friend.

 

[OutThere]

I can't see how the GT is going to run the numbers all the rags are projecting. 500/500 and I have seen the projected weight now near 3,400. If GM does build a 500 HP Vette, close to the 3,000 some are projecting, at $55-$60k it will smoke the GT.

 

[Phoenix SRT]

Remember how great Lutz told us the new GTO was going to be....it didn't happen with either looks or performance.

According to the 11/3/03 edition of AutoWeek, the car is actually pretty quick and the testers like it quite a lot. Sure, it's a bit plain looking; not ugly, just not exciting. But, it goes like crazy. There aren't too many (any?) $33k daily driver type sedans that go 0-60 in 5.3 secs. and run the 1/4 mile in 14 seconds. That's quite a bit faster than the original and all while offering great handling and a fair bit of comfort.

 

[Mopar]

Remember how great Lutz told us the new GTO was going to be....it didn't happen with either looks or performance.

According to the 11/3/03 edition of AutoWeek, the car is actually pretty quick and the testers like it quite a lot. Sure, it's a bit plain looking; not ugly, just not exciting. But, it goes like crazy. There aren't too many (any?) $33k daily driver type sedans that go 0-60 in 5.3 secs. and run the 1/4 mile in 14 seconds. That's quite a bit faster than the original and all while offering great handling and a fair bit of comfort.

I agree and SLP (the company who built the SS, WS6 Trans-Am, and Firehawk) released a statement that they will continue where GM left off. The will offer 3 packages as a dealer option. The stock GTO has 350hp/385tq, SLP will offer a 375hp, 400hp and a 425hp "Judge" package to the option list. I'm looking forward to seeing this car with the classic GTO hood scoop.