car is 11 years old

[mattdillon]

I put some new tires on my 00' RT/10 several months back & I've owned the car for 9 months, I've never had the front end aligned. Do you think I should go ahead & do it now & I've heard it helps to have a lil' toe-in on the rear tires (suppose to help for control) Is there any truth to that? Thanks for any input.

 

[JohnnyViper]

i would do an alignment, i do one after a tire change and once a year, just hitting one good pothole and throw your alignment out of spec

 

[mattdillon]

Johnny, have you ever heard about a lil' toe-in on the rear for better control?

 

[jdeft1]

I'd advise you to leave the spec. alignment unless you track the car. A bit of toe in back might help a bit on a track but will waste your tires quick on the street... Also, a race spec. alignment will make it track the ruts more and feel more twitchy.. (technical term...haha) I doubt you'll notice much in the way of performance gain unless you're very comfortable driving it on the edge of its' capabilities.

 

[JohnnyViper]

jdeft1 is right, i do my alignments to spec to avoid my tires wearing unevenly and to stop it veering to the left or right in that respect you will have a better "tracking" car, FYI the car still can track the crown of the road pulling the car either way

Johnny, have you ever heard about a lil' toe-in on the rear for better control?

 

[Dom426h]

Toe:
The stock alignment for Gen2/3/4 vipers ALL have some TOE IN. (im not familiar with the Gen1 specs...)
- Alittle in the front to keep her tracking straight.
- Alittle more in the rear to attempt keep the rear end tame (especially when exiting a turn with throttle)
Both of these are Good things

Camber:
The stock spec calls for about .25 of camber up font and i think .65 rear. Why less in the front? To give the car the tendancy to push/understeer by limiting the grip to the front tires around turns.
This is a Good thing if you are an ameture. It helps to keep you from loosing the a$$ end and spinning.
This is a Bad thing if you know how to drive a performance vehicle and want a balanced setup to drive faster.

If you know how to drive your viper you will want more camber up front. I recommend .75-1.0 This will give the car more neutral grip around turns. Tirewear???? From my experience the fronts will never wear as fast as the rears so dont be intimidated upping the front camber if your looking for more performance(just as long as you keep the toe setting near stock) Excessive toe is what accelerates wear on tires because you are effectivly scrubbing the tires sideways alittl while driving down the road.


My alignment specs are:
Toe & Castor - Stock
Camber - 1.5 Front, 1.0 Rear

 

[mattdillon]

Thanks Guys, NO I definitely won't be doing any tracking, I just didn't know if getting the car re-aligned was necessary since it probably hasn't been done since new. Thanks Again!

 

[GTS Dean]

I would strongly reccomend an alignment, with more rear toe. Suspension bushings will take a set off-center after several years. I drove off the dealer lot in my GTS on 7/15/96 - so it's 15 on Friday.

 

[Bexar80]

Just to reiterate, an alignment would be a GREAT idea. Especially for around $100 it could save your butt without you ever knowing it.

I recommend front camber no less than -.7*, toe dead center of the specified range and castor within range as long as both sides match.
I recommend rear camber set to the maximum specified degree negative, toe dead center of the range or moved towards the maximum toe in, rear castor in range with both sides matching.

The increased negative front camber not only increases turning ability but it also MASSIVELY improves straight line tracking. There is no more wandering from ruts in the road and you will be able to SAFELY drive the car with only one hand. (I still drive with both hands by habit)
Increased rear toe will decrease the tendency for the rear to step out while exiting a turn. This hugely applies to the street!
Currently I run -1* rear camber which is great for turns at the track and 100+mph straight line stability. However, there is a noticeable decrease in traction from a dead stop in 1st gear and the only solution for non R-compound tires is to get more rubber in contact with the road, ie less negative camber.

All the talk of tire wear is just hearsay. How many miles do you guys really put on the car every year? I bet the tires dry out well before they wear out from an aggressive alignment. All the talk of dangerous old tires and the need for new tires but what good are they if the new tires are not properly in contact with the road? Dial in more negative camber up front and increase the toe in the rear.

The old adage,"hit a *** hole and now the alignment is off" does not hold true, especially on a Viper. There is nothing to "knock" out of alignment. If the alignment is off something got bent, there is bushing damage or there is play in either a damaged ball joint or tie rod end. However, there is an acceptable tolerance (fairly small) that things can bend and correcting the alignment is an adequate and proper solution. As for the a-arm cam bolts, they should never become tweaked from a "common" hard hit when properly torqued. I have 10+ years of experience with similar cam alignment bolts on off-road trucks that take hits exponentially greater than those that a *** hole could ever deliver without becoming altered. As mentioned above, typically the rubber bushings deteriorate enough that they do not require replacement but cause an altered alignment.

Sorry for the dissertation...just go get an alignment.

 

[JohnnyViper]

learn something everyday....it has been drilled into me that hard hits knock out alignment by the general public even tire/alignment places (probably miss-educating the public so they spend more money on alignments) thanks for the education!

The old adage,"hit a *** hole and now the alignment is off" does not hold true, especially on a Viper. There is nothing to "knock" out of alignment. If the alignment is off something got bent, there is bushing damage or there is play in either a damaged ball joint or tie rod end. However, there is an acceptable tolerance (fairly small) that things can bend and correcting the alignment is an adequate and proper solution. As for the a-arm cam bolts, they should never become tweaked from a "common" hard hit when properly torqued. I have 10+ years of experience with similar cam alignment bolts on off-road trucks that take hits exponentially greater than those that a *** hole could ever deliver without becoming altered. As mentioned above, typically the rubber bushings deteriorate enough that they do not require replacement but cause an altered alignment.

Sorry for the dissertation...just go get an alignment.

 

[Dom426h]

Good stuff Bexar80. I dont see anything in our suspension bending without a collision, but i guess it could be possible with some of these guys running 20"+ wheels with minimal tire sidwall to absorb the impact from killer potholes...

However. The cam bolts CAN slip. I first heard of this when i started autocross racing awhile ago. Several people said no matter how much they torqued em they would slip by the end of the season.
Well i had an alignment done a week before this past viperdays event. Mentioned to the tech about the possibility of the cam bolts slipping and he said that usually only happens with DIY home alignments where someone is laying on their back adjusting the bolts with not enough torque. This made sense to me as you can get alot more torque on something with it on a lift standing up. Well i marked all of my bolts with a paint pen (EVERYONE SHOULD DO THIS) and after the 2 Day track event i noticed that both of my front right lower a-arm bolts had slipped alittle.
I partly blame myself for going off-course twice

 

[GTS Dean]

Adjustment cams do move. Things can be knocked out of alignment.

 

[jdeft1]

I have to disagree with Bexar80 on one point. An agressive track alignment will definately cut your tire life in half if you really drive it on the street. It's been a while (7 years I think) but I used to run a '94 with a bit of neg camber up front and some neg toe along with some neg toe in back. (I'd have to check my records to be exact on the settings...). Like many here I ran it hard a few couple times a year on a track but mostly used the car for weekend roadtrips, good times etc. My tire life was around 8-10k mi. My current '94 has a stock alignment and around 15kmi. on PS2s. They still have half their treadlife... I stand by my last post. If you drive it like most do, go with the stock settings. Enjoy the car and save a few bucks in rubber.

Cheers

 

[Bexar80]

Interesting point about the cams and tire wear. I'm by no means a Viper expert but I am trying to learn and especially not out to discredit anyone (I think I do that inadvertently to myself enough anyway). Looking at the design, the cams really are not what is holding things in place. The serrated ends of the bushings should take the load when torqued. Craw under the car and you'll notice that the cams contact differently depending on how well the tabs were welded on. For instance a front cam will contact the tab but the rear cam on the same bolt will not even be contacting a tab. Poor qc from Dodge but it also indicates the clamping force on the bushing is holding the adjustment not just the cam. But these cars have also been around long enough that I won't be making any revelations and I could be incorrect.

I will have to report back in the following weeks if anything moved when I have the rear camber adjusted again. I have put two track days and 3k miles since my last alignment and my tires show no accelerated wear. I readily craw under the car and check components, tires etc (wash under there too ).

HOWEVER readers should take what jdeft1 notes of accelerated wear in to serious consideration since he has personal experience and actual results may vary due to many factors in each situation.

 

[mattdillon]

Bexar80, I sent you a PM

 

[Bexar80]

I thought I might add that the alignments are to be done at "curb height." Meaning full tank of gas, and no other added weight in the car except for the normal spare tire/jack.

 

[pathoguy]

just hitting one good pothole and throw your alignment out of spec

We don't have any potholes in Louisiana.

 

[v10enomous]

I had an alignment done on my 98 with 26k on it when I replaced the tires. The car tracked great and felt tight before the alignment but felt noticeably better after the alignment was done. I just figured that the $100 was worth it if the tires wear better. I wound up getting all of my cars done when I replaced the tires and they all needed some adjustment.

 

[jckrieger]

+1! Don't use the stock front camber spec. I've auto-xed my GTS with the stock specs, and also with -1 degree up front and -.5 in the rear. The stock specs understeered quite badly, but with the extra negative camber up front the car handles correctly and won't disappoint you.

Toe:
The stock alignment for Gen2/3/4 vipers ALL have some TOE IN. (im not familiar with the Gen1 specs...)
- Alittle in the front to keep her tracking straight.
- Alittle more in the rear to attempt keep the rear end tame (especially when exiting a turn with throttle)
Both of these are Good things

Camber:
The stock spec calls for about .25 of camber up font and i think .65 rear. Why less in the front? To give the car the tendancy to push/understeer by limiting the grip to the front tires around turns.
This is a Good thing if you are an ameture. It helps to keep you from loosing the a$$ end and spinning.
This is a Bad thing if you know how to drive a performance vehicle and want a balanced setup to drive faster.

If you know how to drive your viper you will want more camber up front. I recommend .75-1.0 This will give the car more neutral grip around turns. Tirewear???? From my experience the fronts will never wear as fast as the rears so dont be intimidated upping the front camber if your looking for more performance(just as long as you keep the toe setting near stock) Excessive toe is what accelerates wear on tires because you are effectivly scrubbing the tires sideways alittl while driving down the road.


My alignment specs are:
Toe & Castor - Stock
Camber - 1.5 Front, 1.0 Rear

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Adjustment cams do move. Things can be knocked out of alignment.

Deano knows.