Carbon ceramic brakes for the Gen V

[TrackAire]

Needs an oversize wheel...?

This guy tracks with us. Those are 295/30/18 and 345/35/18 in the rear....

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That's an eye opener, I figured 18" would be a no go. Great option for track rats, thanks for posting this up. In a way, now I'm even more confused as to the wheel issue, size and weight concerns SRT might have spoken of in previous statements.

Cheers,
George

 

[treesnake]

There is about 3/4-1" clearance between the wheel and rotor. The pads are the size of your open hand...

We have run pretty much the same track events and I'm on my third set of X rotors and 6+ sets of pads.
He just changed pads.... For the first time...

I can't lie, they are badass

Beside the performance, the carbon rotors look cool as hell....

 

[TrackAire]

Not sure what the cost of the ACR-X rotors are, but it sounds like you're 50% to the cost option of the CCB for the Vettes. I didn't even thing about the long term life of these things, that's impressive.

A friend retro fitted his Ford GT with ZR1 ceramic brake rotors and loves it. Sounds like there is a market for the Viper guys if somebody would step up.

Cheers,
George

 

[ACRucrazy]

ACR-X Rotors are about $1300 a pair.

 

[VENOM V]

Treesnake, thanks for pointing out that they fit inside 18's, that's significant. Brembo makes the CCB brakes turnkey, all SRT would have to do is simple ntegration and testing then. So even the development dollars and time would be reasonable. By the way I like your sig, words to live by

Responding to some of the other posts- regarding the glazing issue: Does that happen of you properly bed the new pads? They discussed this in class, brain dead simple. Just come to a stop from about 35mph five times, with medium pedal pressure. That's it. They're then ready to go, fully broken in.

Good to know about the reduced dust with CCBs. That's a huge annoyance for me too.

Gotta say, I trust the guys at Spring Mountain, they were not ZR1 fanboys either. They did agree that the ZR1 has heat soak issues, and prefer the normally aspirated route that the Viper took. I think their real world evaluation and endorsement of CCB brakes holds credibility. CCBs really do look like a no brainer option to me. Not required, but as part of a high end track package. SRT, I'll take mine with the carbon aero package please

 

[chorps]

Hoping it comes with the next ACR/GTS-R.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Needs an oversize wheel...?

This guy tracks with us. Those are 295/30/18 and 345/35/18 in the rear....

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This is exactly why I said I dont trust everything SRT says. They said you needed bigger wheels to fit CCB's. Quite obviously you dont lol. They said the Viper is as wide as legally allowed yet Lambo, Ferrari etc makes cars way wider than the Viper lol. They say CCB's explode and dont offer any significant advantage over SRT's steel offering yet they got beat bad by a ZR1 that has both larger wheel and CCB's. Lets not forget Porsche etc have been running CCB's on there hipo streetcars without incident for quite a while. They called MRC a gimmick yet Ferrari etc are using them and yet again the car that initially beat them, the ZR1, had the MRC on it. They do offer a superior ride and yet provide excellent handing. None of these are gimmicks and are proven both on street and track.

I see a pattern with SRT that rather disturbs me a bit. If you just aren't going to use these available systems and parts just say so. If its not in the budget ok. Some of the old school engineers don't like them? No problem. Just say so. No need to offer ridiculous, unsubstantiated claims that any one with half a brain can debunk or posit a real world rebuttal. I really like team SRT but the way they answer some of these subjects makes you feel insulted lol. Anyway like I said before I hope they are just sandbagging and dont want us to know what coming down the line in a few.

 

[chorps]

This is exactly why I said I dont trust everything SRT says. They said you needed bigger wheels to fit CCB's. Quite obviously you dont lol. They said the Viper is as wide as legally allowed yet Lambo, Ferrari etc makes cars way wider than the Viper lol. They say CCB's explode and dont offer any significant advantage over SRT's steel offering yet they got beat bad by a ZR1 that has both larger wheel and CCB's. Lets not forget Porsche etc have been running CCB's on there hipo streetcars without incident for quite a while. They called MRC a gimmick yet Ferrari etc are using them and yet again the car that initially beat them, the ZR1, had the MRC on it. They do offer a superior ride and yet provide excellent handing. None of these are gimmicks and are proven both on street and track.

I see a pattern with SRT that rather disturbs me a bit. If you just aren't going to use these available systems and parts just say so. If its not in the budget ok. Some of the old school engineers don't like them? No problem. Just say so. No need to offer ridiculous, unsubstantiated claims that any one with half a brain can debunk or posit a real world rebuttal. I really like team SRT but the way they answer some of these subjects makes you feel insulted lol. Anyway like I said before I hope they are just sandbagging and dont want us to know what coming down the line in a few.

I hear a lot of this anecdotally but much of it could be taken out of context, or old information. You are right that they might be misinformed, sandbagging, or it could be corporate speak of 'we didn't have the time/funds/willingness to do it'.

A lot of the SRT guys are track rats, so I do notice that their point of view is very focused on a privateer racer's mentality, which isn't necessarily a bad thing when you've got such a tiny volume, single platform engine and frame development. Some of the ideas formed do seem to go against the common wisdom (if that's what you can call it, hehe) of what the community does want (Forced Induction, MR shocks, heh). One of the biggest factors that I think the SRT team faces with the Viper is cost, cost, cost.

Historically, they have to be cheap in order to survive, and traditionally it was cut every corner that didn't make the Viper go fast, and do it cheaply. Every engineering hour and dollar counts way more on a Viper simply because they are putting it into a unique platform that only sells 2500 units a year. I can't think of any other small volume company that has engineered the whole deal (DOT and all) and not been under 250k (or lost their a$$).

Traditionally the non-SRT and post-Gale/Lutz Chrysler management has hated (read verachtet) the Viper because it was totally contrary to their volume business model...Conner was always on the chopping block because it counted against some exec's bonus because the man-hours per vehicle at Conner were through the roof compared to the rest of Chrysler, and the overall man-hour productivity was benchmarked against Toyota's US plant operations...

The hardest part that SRT had was an all-or-none mentality with the Viper...every change wanted to be applied across the line with minimum variation. Hopefully that kind of thinking can change now because it appears like they're lining up smaller volume suppliers, customization is getting better and having Ferrari as a sister division is actually teaching them how to work like a genuine small production facility as opposed to being a skunkworks operation.

However it will always be a challenge to keep the Viper at its price point, and everyone has already noticed the price creeping upwards. Most everyone thinks the Carbon Ceramic brakes are 'better' than the regular old steel brakes, and for about 2% of the Viper owners it will make a meaningful performance difference...is that enough for every Viper to get CC brakes and raise the cost by $9-10k, or make it a checkbox option that adds $15-20k to an unknown number of Vipers? This will be a decision that adds 10%+ to the price of the car.

Personally I think the take rate on CC brakes will be enough to replace the entire line but if you think about it, CC brakes are about as desirable as Stryker Red and most of us will do the same lap time with a CC option vs. the Stryker Red option (me included). Still, I want it all.

It does appear that Carbon Ceramic brakes are a lot better than they used to be, so some of the older information on the brakes may be outdated now, especially on durability/longevity and price. It sounds like they are fantastic performers.

Some interesting background:
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=177624
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z06-discussion/1867368-carbon-ceramic-brake-rotors.html
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforu...market-ceramic-rotors-pccb-replacement-6.html

 

[MoparMap]

It might also be worth noting that the Viper consistently out-braked lots of cars back in the day with a "plain" brake system. 60-0 in under 100 is nuts compared to most cars out there. Granted that doesn't mean that they won't fade which is probably more the issue. As mentioned in other discussions regarding braking, adding extra stopping power won't necessarily make your car stop faster. The tires are your ultimate limit. If you can lock up the wheels with steel brakes, carbon won't make you stop any faster, they just might let you stop as fast as possible for a longer amount of time.

Also, looking over some of the posts chorps linked, it looks like you could just get a generic StopTech carbon rotor and put it on the regular ACR 2 piece hat. Maybe the dimensions are different, but the 2 piece hat on the BMW in the first link looks an awful lot like the ACR rotors I just put on my car. I'd think you mightbe able to just get a 14" carbon ring from them and bolt them to one of their hats, no need for a kit. Swap out pads to go with it as well of course.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Good post Chorps. Yeah a lot of that info ran through my mind. I know what they have always been up against monetarily speaking not to mention the different owners/bean counters the Viper had to survive through.

However, if it werent for the Stryker red option I wouldnt be so focused on them adding CCB and/or MCS option from the factory because of the know comparatively shoestring budget. Both of those options together costs about the same as the Stryker Red option BUT they make the Viper faster and more compliant. They could be had as a set or a la carte. I just figured on a car that much more performance oriented a MCS/CCB option makes more sense than a 15-20k "hey look at me" paint option [its gorgeous though ]... How many would prefer the MCS/CCB option over the Stryker Red option for the same or less money? It doesn't have to be available right now but I hope its being seriously considered. I doubt we will ever see an MRC shock option just because. MCS yes.

Well with the mounting problems SRT is having with delivering peoples cars on time I think maybe consideration of these kinds of options in the board room are a long way off sadly. Its a great sports car as it is. I and others just want to see it be the best it can "reasonably" be in its current iteration. Trying to compete with the Mclaren P1 or La Ferrari is not reasonable of course, but CCB's/MCS so it can compete with and beat ZR1's, Porsches etc in both sport and GT arenas is definitely reasonable and extremely doable imho.

As it stands now you need 2 Vipers to beat the ZR1 in all areas. You need the GTS to beat it in the GT department and you need the TA to beat it around a track. The GTS should be the model to deal with the ZR1 around a track and street since they are both GT's, but it just doesnt have the equipment to do the whole job so hence you need another model to handle it on track. Not a great look in my book for SRT.

Of course if the G5 doesn't sell well all this is moot sadly. Im actually concerned about that after reading about all the unsold G5's still on lots, both price gouged and msrp.

 

[PeerBlock]

How many would prefer the MCS/CCB option over the Stryker Red option for the same or less money?

Agree with most of what you said, but you can always make the mechanical upgrades aftermarket. The stryker red option is something you can only get from the factory and since the viper is a toy you might as well look your best while driving it.

 

[kdaviper]

As it stands now you need 2 Vipers to beat the ZR1 in all areas. You need the GTS to beat it in the GT department and you need the TA to beat it around a track. The GTS should be the model to deal with the ZR1 around a track and street since they are both GT's, but it just doesnt have the equipment to do the whole job so hence you need another model to handle it on track. Not a great look in my book for SRT.

Not true; all the GTS needs to beat the ZR1 around a track is a set of MPSCs.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Not true; all the GTS needs to beat the ZR1 around a track is a set of MPSCs.

Reread what I said sir. "As it stands". There are no MPSC or Trofeos from the factory "as it stands" so you WILL need the TA to edge out the ZR1 on a track. Teh GTS "as it stands" cant do it with those tires hence me saying it "just doesn't have the equipment to do the whole job".....I think we all know what will happen to the ZR1 if/when the Viper gets its running shoes on. Till then you need 2 Vipers to handle the defunct ZR1 unfortunately.

 

[kdaviper]

Reread what I said sir. "As it stands". There are no MPSC or Trofeos from the factory "as it stands" so you WILL need the TA to edge out the ZR1 on a track. Teh GTS "as it stands" cant do it with those tires hence me saying it "just doesn't have the equipment to do the whole job".....I think we all know what will happen to the ZR1 if/when the Viper gets its running shoes on. Till then you need 2 Vipers to handle the defunct ZR1 unfortunately.

Who cares if it's from the factory... Go to a tire rack and pick up some discounted MPSC's and put them on. It's not rocket science and you'll save your street tires for the street.

 

[kdaviper]

OH and btw, the comments Ralph made about the Viper being as wide as it could were made about the GTS-R in regards to ALMS regulations.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Who cares if it's from the factory... Go to a tire rack and pick up some discounted MPSC's and put them on. It's not rocket science and you'll save your street tires for the street.

No need for an argument on such trivialities. Either side of this coin can be argued to no end lol.

Good to know that tidbit about what Ralph was referring to about the Vipers width. Where did you get that clarification from if you don't mind me asking. That comment from Ralph has been flying around for awhile now. Maybe this bodes well for the upcoming ACR.

 

[kdaviper]

No need for an argument on such trivialities. Either side of this coin can be argued to no end lol.

Good to know that tidbit about what Ralph was referring to about the Vipers width. Where did you get that clarification from if you don't mind me asking. That comment from Ralph has been flying around for awhile now. Maybe this bodes well for the upcoming ACR.

I can't remember, I've seen so many damn videos and read so many articles about the Viper and GTS-R they all run together.

 

[kdaviper]

Here's a link to the NHTSA safety standards... only thing i can find about width is vehicles over 80 inches wide need special marker lighting(std 108)... so i'd say 80 in is the widest we'll see any performance vehicles.. the Viper could grow a total of 3.6 inches wider and not need them.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/fmvss/

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

The Viper should have CCB. The fact that this is even a topic for discussion is evidence that the Viper purists/loyalists are no longer SRT's target market.

 

[KB Viper]

I had a zr1 and it was my daily driver. My brakes squeaked and squealed all the time. I burnished them, tracked the car and it would not go away. It stopped on a dime but so does my gen v now. I have not tracked it yet but will soon and maybe then my mind will change.

 

[Rated R]

FWIW many avid Porsche track rats swap their CCB's for steel. CCB's are lighter, have a higher longevity on the street but they squeak and they are obscenely expensive to replace. They also have to be handled delicately. A wheel change by a nonchalant tire monkey can ruin them.

Anyway first post. I'll work on an intro thread.

 

[TrackAire]

FWIW many avid Porsche track rats swap their CCB's for steel. CCB's are lighter, have a higher longevity on the street but they squeak and they are obscenely expensive to replace. They also have to be handled delicately. A wheel change by a nonchalant tire monkey can ruin them.

Anyway first post. I'll work on an intro thread.

Welcome to the forum.

Signed,

NC-17

 

[chorps]

FWIW many avid Porsche track rats swap their CCB's for steel. CCB's are lighter, have a higher longevity on the street but they squeak and they are obscenely expensive to replace. They also have to be handled delicately. A wheel change by a nonchalant tire monkey can ruin them.

Anyway first post. I'll work on an intro thread.

Welcome to the forums.

I think that PCCBs (earlier generations?) are different than the CCBs used for the ZR1. This may account for the differences in the opinions of the longevity and durability of [P]CCBs.

In one of the links I had posted previously:
If you look at your Porsche rotors from the side, you can see that there is a (literally) paper thin braking surface laminated on the structural substrate. That is why they are delicate, and can be ruined easily - if you wear or knock a hole through the braking layer, the rotor starts to degrade rapidly, because the thick structural layer does not work well as a friction surface.

The Movit rotor is a monolithic, single material. If you wear it down, the material below the surface is the same as the surface. This should provide ridiculously long life (approaching the life of the car, even with track use). It was thought that you could even fix an uneven face (if you wore through the pad or caught a rock) by grinding it smooth again.

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Old thread I know, but wanted to let anyone who may not already know that Brembo already makes a CCB kit for the GenV Viper, I know the rotor has 5 lugs, but they say they have the 6 lug hats avaialble.

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I know there was a lot of pricing discussion about what it takes to add these brakes to the Viper package, but I think everyone will be surprised to learn you can get them with 6 piston calipers and rotors for just $33,000 without S.S. lines. Maybe we can get them to do a group buy?

 

[IndyRon]

Old thread I know, but wanted to let anyone who may not already know that Brembo already makes a CCB kit for the GenV Viper, I know the rotor has 5 lugs, but they say they have the 6 lug hats avaialble.

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I know there was a lot of pricing discussion about what it takes to add these brakes to the Viper package, but I think everyone will be surprised to learn you can get them with 6 piston calipers and rotors for just $33,000 without S.S. lines. Maybe we can get them to do a group buy?

So, they must have given GM an 80% discount or more because there is no way that the CCB's on the ZR1 added more than $5-6k in manufacturing costs to the car. Not when a stripper model 1LZ equipped ZR1 could be purchased in the past for under 100k new and the equivalent new Z06 still costs $85k....so $15k price differential and that doesn't consider any of the powertrain or other technology in the ZR1 over the Z06. Something doesn't add up.

The bottom line is, how much would Brembo sell the EXACT ZR1 brake setup, just with 6-lug rotors and appropriately sized pistons for the Viper platform? It should be less than $10k retail for all 4 corners.

 

[Will at RSI]

The Brembo CCM discs that are the OEM option for the Ferrari and Corvette are Not designed for hard track use. Period. The ceramic disc will last a lot longer than an iron rotor during street driving, but the excessive temperatures generated on the track will cause a significant decrease in the life of the ceramic disc. The Porsche PCCB discs are a completely different disc that is not made by Brembo. In both cases the ceramic discs require special pads and to date I only know of a the Pagid Yellow race pad for the Porsche PCCB and nothing for the CCM discs on the Corvette.

Brembo’s new CCM-R Discs are designed for track use and will still function great on the street. The Brembo High Performance Aftermarket CCM-R Disc has twice the performance of the CCM discs on the Corvette or Ferrari and 4 times the life. The CCM disc will last ~1000 Track Miles or 100,000 street miles and the CCM-R Discs will last 4000 Track Miles or 400,000 street miles, which is longer than iron rotors also.

The price point is still high for the carbon ceramic discs and it will be a couple of years before CCM-R Discs are significantly less expensive than today.

Here is the first set of Brembo CCM-R brakes for the Dodge Viper. These were completed and installed days before SEMA on one of the RSI Racing Solutions Twin Turbo Gen 5 Cars.

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[bushido]

6 piston calipers a big yes for the Viper. . CC rotors not needed. As all my friend's have changed out theirs with Steel ones.. Here's a good thread my friend posted on the CV forum..

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z06-discussion/3377525-ceramic-to-rb-steel-rotors-conversion.html

If you want to do a 6 piston caliper BBK upgrade for the Viper. Just get the Stoptechs like I did for my ACR. You will save money.. I plan on getting the same kit for my Gen V soon.. My review..

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/2472-Stoptech-6-piston-BBK-Review

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[VENOM V]

The Brembo CCM discs that are the OEM option for the Ferrari and Corvette are Not designed for hard track use. Period. The ceramic disc will last a lot longer than an iron rotor during street driving, but the excessive temperatures generated on the track will cause a significant decrease in the life of the ceramic disc. The Porsche PCCB discs are a completely different disc that is not made by Brembo. In both cases the ceramic discs require special pads and to date I only know of a the Pagid Yellow race pad for the Porsche PCCB and nothing for the CCM discs on the Corvette.

Brembo’s new CCM-R Discs are designed for track use and will still function great on the street. The Brembo High Performance Aftermarket CCM-R Disc has twice the performance of the CCM discs on the Corvette or Ferrari and 4 times the life. The CCM disc will last ~1000 Track Miles or 100,000 street miles and the CCM-R Discs will last 4000 Track Miles or 400,000 street miles, which is longer than iron rotors also.

Hi Will,

There are a lot of conflicting opinions on CCBs, which makes this topic confusing to me. I'd appreciate your insights on this, I've had first-hand experience with Corvettes at the Ron Fellows School that differs from your post. I drove ZR1s three days hard in the school. No fade, no issues, fantastic brakes that stop equally well hot or cold. No noise, no side effects. The school says they get about 6,000 track miles out of these Brembo CCM pads, not 1,000. Conversely, they sometimes have to change pads after a single two day class on the Z06 and Grand Sport, if the student is particularly ******* the brakes. They've never replaced a CCB rotor on their school cars, which are in service about 5 days a week. I understand not all tracks are as ******* brakes as others, but at least at both of Spring Mountain's tracks, they work exceptionally well. I also drove Z06s and Grand Sports for two days on track in another class. I boiled the brake fluid on the Grand Sports no less than 3 times, in two different cars. I had no issues with the Z06 brakes except they were smoking hot and stinking up a storm after one spirited session.

So the Brembo CCMs are a significant improvement over the Z06 and Grand Sport's brakes. Maybe significant enough for weekend track rats like many of us, so we may not need to go all the way to CCM-Rs. A race car running an endurance race, sure, CCM-Rs is the ticket. But for even a serious track rat, do you really need anything more than CCMs?

I will be tracking my Viper at Spring Mountain both Thursday and Friday and will follow up with the school director to get additional insights on the CCBs and report back.

 

[IndyRon]

Hi Will,

There are a lot of conflicting opinions on CCBs, which makes this topic confusing to me. I'd appreciate your insights on this, I've had first-hand experience with Corvettes at the Ron Fellows School that differs from your post. I drove ZR1s three days hard in the school. No fade, no issues, fantastic brakes that stop equally well hot or cold. No noise, no side effects. The school says they get about 6,000 track miles out of these Brembo CCM pads, not 1,000. Conversely, they sometimes have to change pads after a single two day class on the Z06 and Grand Sport, if the student is particularly ******* the brakes. They've never replaced a CCB rotor on their school cars, which are in service about 5 days a week. I understand not all tracks are as ******* brakes as others, but at least at both of Spring Mountain's tracks, they work exceptionally well. I also drove Z06s and Grand Sports for two days on track in another class. I boiled the brake fluid on the Grand Sports no less than 3 times, in two different cars. I had no issues with the Z06 brakes except they were smoking hot and stinking up a storm after one spirited session.

So the Brembo CCMs are a significant improvement over the Z06 and Grand Sport's brakes. Maybe significant enough for weekend track rats like many of us, so we may not need to go all the way to CCM-Rs. A race car running an endurance race, sure, CCM-Rs is the ticket. But for even a serious track rat, do you really need anything more than CCMs?

I will be tracking my Viper at Spring Mountain both Thursday and Friday and will follow up with the school director to get additional insights on the CCBs and report back.

Exactly! I don't want (or need CCM-R), especially at over 30k dollars. How about let me run the standard CCM setup and if I need a new rotor after 1000 track miles, that's on me. Since it is so mass produced now, I should be under $10k/set of 4. I'd pay $10 for a complete set. I've seen enough evidence that the standard CCM brakes are reliable, durable, and perform above and beyond any steel setup for a street/strip car with occasional lapping days which is what I use my car for.

 

[kdaviper]

Unfortunately, TANSTAAFL :{(
race car-performance brakes have a race car price.