Challenger Hellcat gets 707HP!

[elanderholm]

I understand you saying this with a turbo. But with a SC that wont be the problem. Im sure you have seen the power/tq curve for a ZR1. Its actually a little better than the Vipers if memory serves. BTW with a pair of decent sized turbos would you necessarilly feel lag from an engine this size? If so I doubt it would be anything on the level of the 4 cyl or even 6 cyl turbo cars.

Not the 80s anymore. Go look at the torque curves of the new turbo motors. Often they are better than na motors. Heat is still the issue on a road course. Look at the motor in the zonda. Big high revving dohc motor. Would love to see that. Viper would be one of the last big displacement, big cylinder count, high revving na supercars.

 

[sunsalem]

Good points. I would love turbo's as well but I dont know if Fiat would release the money/resources to do this yet if ever. And even if they did I wonder what they would ask for the price of entry? How much would one be willing to pay for a factory FI Viper?

Good point.
All things considered (and IMO ), developing the current V10 further just doesn't make much economic sense right now.
It would be much more rational to pull something that is already developed and tested from the Fiat (Ferrari?) or Dodge (Hellcat?) inventory.

SC is probably the more cost effective way to give it FI if they actually got around to doing it for the G5.

I may be wrong, but I believe an SC engine is less costly to install...less tricky to master.
HOWEVER, a turbo motor is more fuel efficient...something manufacturers are very keen on right now with new Fed mileage rules coming online in the coming years.

They obviously were thinking about FI when they designed the G5 engine

I would LOVE to know what Ralph and his crew had in mind about FI when they strengthened the internals of the G5 motor to accommodate higher engine pressures.

but maybe those thoughts went out the window when they saw that a 120-140k viper didn't sell well. I guess we will never know if a factory boosted Viper would sell until one is built for sale. It seems that quite a few would love to see at least one boosted model from what I've heard and read. But how many will actually buy it if it becomes available is another question.

Completely agree.

Adding colors and little bits of trim will not help. I predicted trouble for this car when the hp went from 600 to only 640 with the Gen 5, less than the Mustang GT500 at that time. It's a new marketplace defined by hp/torque numbers anyway you can get it. The hp number is more important than the number of cylinders.

+10000000

You might be able to reconfigure the V10 as a higher revving smalling displacement engine and get more power (think Italian style), but you typically give up the low end to get there.

True, but I bet the sound would be incredible.

BTW with a pair of decent sized turbos would you necessarilly feel lag from an engine this size?

Not sure.
I think it has more to with controlling turbos thru the electronics than anything else.
From what I have read, Mercedes (and others) have conquered turbo lag.

Look at the motor in the zonda. Big high revving dohc motor. Would love to see that. Viper would be one of the last big displacement, big cylinder count, high revving na supercars.

A DOHC, high revving NA Viper would be the cat's meow in the Snake.

 

[05Commemorative]

Drive ******* the street or a track? Hard driving on the street is equivalent to a cool-down lap on the track. We just need to make sure what points people are debating from.

Heat soak does happen all day long at the track with supercharged cars on the track. You name the car (ZR1, AMG's, etc). Very rarely on the street, but definitely at the track. Just a different world.

In a modern FI car built by an actual MANUFACTURER (not some guy in his garage), heat soak isn't something to worry about.
I have had 3 supercharged cars in the last 10 years and haven't had a single instance of overheating...not even close.
BTW, I drive my vehicles HARD.

 

[MoparMap]

I understand you saying this with a turbo. But with a SC that wont be the problem. Im sure you have seen the power/tq curve for a ZR1. Its actually a little better than the Vipers if memory serves. BTW with a pair of decent sized turbos would you necessarilly feel lag from an engine this size? If so I doubt it would be anything on the level of the 4 cyl or even 6 cyl turbo cars.

Yeah, I understand that a supercharger generally dodges this issue and doesn't have as much sacrifice as a centrifugal or turbo setup might, especially if you're not pushing the boost limits that hard. I've also heard from some people that have tried to track a twin turbo Viper and say it's mostly just comical to even suggest the idea (granted these were typically stupid high hp engines) because it would just throw the back end at the hint of throttle. You pretty much had to stay a gear higher than normal to avoid the boost to even be able to keep it on the track. Ridiculously high numbers like that are silly for a track car anyway. Look at the GT cars in the IMSA Tudor series and they only have 550 hp or so. Even the prototype cars aren't much over that if I remember right. Ralph made a humorous comment once that the cars owners drive in to come watch the races are more powerful than the race cars themselves, but that doesn't mean they'll pull a better track time necessarily. The GTR has been good evidence of that over the years. It's very focused power, not just brute force.

I love the muscle cars wars as much as the next guy and think it's fun to be able to live through them since I wasn't even born yet for the original 60s battles, but that's just it, they're muscle cars. A muscle car and a supercar are not the same thing. It's like pro street and pro touring. A pro touring car (supercar) can play in a pro street car's (muscle car) backyard (the dragstrip), but the pro street car can't hold a candle to the pro touring car as soon as the road changes direction if it's built for the sole purpose of ruling the dragstrip. I can buy a built 69 Charger that'll do 9's in a 1/4 mile for a third of the price of a new Viper, but you don't see new car sales hurting because of it. The Challenger might survive when the road gets twisty, but I highly doubt it would beat a Viper in a lap around almost any track. In my opinion, each car was built to rule its respective type of race. The Camaro is a good example of this. If you want to win drag races, buy a ZL1. If you want to win road courses, buy a Z/28, despite the fact that it has less power. The Viper and Challenger can coexist for the same reason. Each was built with a certain purpose in mind.

 

[FLL-B/W-GTS]

It is called Variable Turbine Geometry,all turbo is non existent...Full Power/Boost all the time... No heat soak, race track or not,but you have to spent the $$$$ to get it.

 

[sunsalem]

Drive ******* the street or a track? Hard driving on the street is equivalent to a cool-down lap on the track.

Like I said in my post, "streetcars."

The SRT, GTS, and TA are streetcars; race or track Vipers are the GTS-R and the GT3-R (which can't be licensed for the street).

My definition between the 2 categories is if a Viper can be driven legally to and from a racetrack, it's a streetcar.
Of course, YMMV.

Heat soak does happen all day long at the track with supercharged cars on the track. You name the car (ZR1, AMG's, etc). Very rarely on the street, but definitely at the track. Just a different world.

Agreed.

Dodge does have Vipers available for the track that are designed exclusively for such a mission.
If I wanted a Viper simply for the track, I would buy the GT3-R.
Again, YMMV.

Yeah, I understand that a supercharger generally dodges this issue and doesn't have as much sacrifice as a centrifugal or turbo setup might, especially if you're not pushing the boost limits that hard. I've also heard from some people that have tried to track a twin turbo Viper and say it's mostly just comical to even suggest the idea (granted these were typically stupid high hp engines) because it would just throw the back end at the hint of throttle. You pretty much had to stay a gear higher than normal to avoid the boost to even be able to keep it on the track. Ridiculously high numbers like that are silly for a track car anyway. Look at the GT cars in the IMSA Tudor series and they only have 550 hp or so. Even the prototype cars aren't much over that if I remember right.

Here are the car specs for the relevant classes in the Tudor Series:


The Prototype (P)
The class features the fastest and most technologically advanced cars in North America. They are specifically designed and engineered for the race track and look drastically different than a typical street car.

TOP SPEED: 190 mph
HORSEPOWER: 450-600
WHEELBASE: Length varies; based on production vehicle design
WEIGHT: 1,990 to 2,285 pounds
HEIGHT: Height varies; based on production vehicle design
WIDTH: 74 inches
CARS: Corvette DP, DeltaWing DWC 13, HPD ARX-03b, ORECA, Mazda, Riley DP
ENGINES: Chevrolet V8, Dinan, Ford EcoBoost Turbo, Honda V6 Turbo, Mazda SKYACTIV Clean Diesel, Nissan
FUEL: VP Racing Fuel E-10 and Diesel
GEARBOX: 6-speed paddle shift
TIRES: Continental
CHASSIS: Steel tubing with integral roll cage or carbon fiber monocoque
SUSPENSION: Front and rear - independent coil springs, upper and lower A arms
TRACTION CONTROL: Permitted


GT Le Mans (GTLM)
The GT Le Mans (GTLM) cars are the most elite and fastest GT cars on the track. They are based on production models and are engineered to extract the maximum performance possible. The class serves as a true proving ground for leading manufacturers such as BMW, Corvette, Ferrari, Porsche, and SRT.

TOP SPEED: 180
HORSEPOWER: 500
WHEELBASE: Length varies; based on production vehicle design
WEIGHT: 2,745 minimum
HEIGHT: Height varies; basd on production vehicle design
WIDTH: 79 inches
CARS: Aston Martin Vantage V8, BMW Z4 GTE, Corvette C7.R, Ferarri F458 Italia, Porsche 911 RSR, SRT Viper GTS-R
ENGINES: Aston Martin V8, BMW 4-valve; 6-liter Chevrolet pushrod 2-valve; Ferrari V8; 5.0 liter Ford 4-valve; Porsche flat 6, Viper V10
FUEL: VP Racing Fuel E-85C
GEARBOX: 5-speed or 6-speed
TIRES: Open (Michelin and Falken currently participating)
CHASSIS: Steel tubing and integral roll cage or production tube with cage, based on production model available to the public
SUSPENSION: Front and rear - independent coil springs, upper and lower A arms
TRACTION CONTROL: Not permitted


GT Daytona (GTD)
The GT Daytona cars are enhanced (not defined by) technology. They are also based on production model cars but do not feature the same level of aerodynamics and power as the GTLM class cars. The GTD class consists of cars from the GRAND-AM GT and ALMS GTC classes, as well as FIA GT3-spec cars.

TOP SPEED: 180
HORSEPOWER: 450
WHEELBASE: Length varies; based on production vehicle design
WEIGHT: 2,680 pounds
HEIGHT: Height varies; based on production vehicle design
WIDTH: 79 inches
CARS: Aston Martin Vantage, Audi R8 LMS, MBW Z4, Ferrari 458 Italia, Porsche 911 GT America, SRT Viper GT3-R
ENGINES: Aston Martin V12; Audi 5.0-liter V10; 5.0-liter BMW 4-valve; Ferrari V8; Porsche 3.6-liter flat 6, Viper V10
FUEL: VP Racing Fuel E-10
GEARBOX: 5-speed or 6-speed
TIRES: Continental
CHASSIS: Steel tubing with integral roll cage or production tube with cage; based on production model available to public
SUSPENSION: Front and rear - independent coil springs, upper and lower A arms
TRACTION CONTROL: Not permitted

Ralph made a humorous comment once that the cars owners drive in to come watch the races are more powerful than the race cars themselves, but that doesn't mean they'll pull a better track time necessarily. The GTR has been good evidence of that over the years. It's very focused power, not just brute force.

I love the muscle cars wars as much as the next guy and think it's fun to be able to live through them since I wasn't even born yet for the original 60s battles, but that's just it, they're muscle cars. A muscle car and a supercar are not the same thing. It's like pro street and pro touring. A pro touring car (supercar) can play in a pro street car's (muscle car) backyard (the dragstrip), but the pro street car can't hold a candle to the pro touring car as soon as the road changes direction if it's built for the sole purpose of ruling the dragstrip. I can buy a built 69 Charger that'll do 9's in a 1/4 mile for a third of the price of a new Viper, but you don't see new car sales hurting because of it. The Challenger might survive when the road gets twisty, but I highly doubt it would beat a Viper in a lap around almost any track. In my opinion, each car was built to rule its respective type of race. The Camaro is a good example of this. If you want to win drag races, buy a ZL1. If you want to win road courses, buy a Z/28, despite the fact that it has less power. The Viper and Challenger can coexist for the same reason. Each was built with a certain purpose in mind.

Well said.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Yeah, I understand that a supercharger generally dodges this issue and doesn't have as much sacrifice as a centrifugal or turbo setup might, especially if you're not pushing the boost limits that hard. I've also heard from some people that have tried to track a twin turbo Viper and say it's mostly just comical to even suggest the idea (granted these were typically stupid high hp engines) because it would just throw the back end at the hint of throttle. You pretty much had to stay a gear higher than normal to avoid the boost to even be able to keep it on the track. Ridiculously high numbers like that are silly for a track car anyway. Look at the GT cars in the IMSA Tudor series and they only have 550 hp or so. Even the prototype cars aren't much over that if I remember right. Ralph made a humorous comment once that the cars owners drive in to come watch the races are more powerful than the race cars themselves, but that doesn't mean they'll pull a better track time necessarily. The GTR has been good evidence of that over the years. It's very focused power, not just brute force.

I love the muscle cars wars as much as the next guy and think it's fun to be able to live through them since I wasn't even born yet for the original 60s battles, but that's just it, they're muscle cars. A muscle car and a supercar are not the same thing. It's like pro street and pro touring. A pro touring car (supercar) can play in a pro street car's (muscle car) backyard (the dragstrip), but the pro street car can't hold a candle to the pro touring car as soon as the road changes direction if it's built for the sole purpose of ruling the dragstrip. I can buy a built 69 Charger that'll do 9's in a 1/4 mile for a third of the price of a new Viper, but you don't see new car sales hurting because of it. The Challenger might survive when the road gets twisty, but I highly doubt it would beat a Viper in a lap around almost any track. In my opinion, each car was built to rule its respective type of race. The Camaro is a good example of this. If you want to win drag races, buy a ZL1. If you want to win road courses, buy a Z/28, despite the fact that it has less power. The Viper and Challenger can coexist for the same reason. Each was built with a certain purpose in mind.

I agree. But my initial premise wasn't to turn all Vipers into 1/4 mile dragsters, just to make one model that is more tuned for street driving like the GTS model and put some form of FI on it while leaving more serious track duty to the SRT/TA/ACR etc. Or just as you mentioned Camaro with two models, one for street/strip with less of a focus on tracking ability and the Z\28 for more focused track duties. Porsche also does this as I mentioned earlier. Either way I was just thinking out loud on what reasonably could be done to satisfy both types of enthusiasts.

 

[SnakeBitten]

I know about the turbos tq curve but just responding to posters remark about lag Viper being like on 4cyl motors etc. Just look at the Porsche TT motors. But Dodge don't have the funds to do that to a Viper motor so I think SC might be more realistic considering their budget.

 

[Torquemonster]

People have to remember the shape of the power and torque curves as well though. I'd rather have good useable power all the time than to brag I have twice as much as someone else, but only for the last 500 rpm of the engine limit. I jokingly call it Honda horsepower. You can get 1000 hp from a 4 cylinder, but your powerband will be a joke. I like knowing that whenever I put my foot down it will take off as opposed to waiting for the power to come in. You might be able to reconfigure the V10 as a higher revving smalling displacement engine and get more power (think Italian style), but you typically give up the low end to get there.

Not sure where you are going with this. Have you actually driven or been in a twin turbo Viper? Not exactly Honda horsepower, more like King Kong in a frenzy and trying to kill you. Turbos properly sized come in later but quicker than a blower. That means a FATTER power curve not a peaky one. That takes care of the curve, now lets talk about how much later they come in.... unless you expect 1000lb/ft from 1000rpm you'll get 8.2L of low down grunt that rises beyond factory stock from under 2000rpm, and by 3000rpm you are ahead of a typical blower, and beyond that hang on. Who road races below 3000rpm?

Turbos will only work on a street Viper for track at low boost. Lower heat, and usable power being the reasons. I've been in one over quite a few laps and there is no issue, none. It works, but don't expect it to work into 4 digit power levels - that is dedicated race car material and would cost a moon beam to keep cool and be effective on a road course. The low boost option will win everytime (racing a higher boost one) other than maybe 1 flying lap - ASSUMING the driver can even hook higher boost.

If I had to take a guess, I reckon in a street legal Viper, 700-800RWhp would be the sweet spot between being able to use it on a road course/track (with race tires) and controlling heat lap after lap. I think after that the car is going to cause grief and headaches, but no doubt somebody has managed a few hot laps above that. 800rwhp is around 900hp at the engine, and that'd be a handful on track at full weight. Into 4 digit power levels and while it might FEEL incredible, don't be surprised to get passed by set up race cars under half the power, because they can brake later, be on the power longer, and hold more speed.

 

[05Commemorative]

Like I said in my post, "streetcars."

The SRT, GTS, and TA are streetcars; race or track Vipers are the GTS-R and the GT3-R (which can't be licensed for the street).

My definition between the 2 categories is if a Viper can be driven legally to and from a racetrack, it's a streetcar.
Of course, YMMV.


Agreed.

Dodge does have Vipers available for the track that are designed exclusively for such a mission.
If I wanted a Viper simply for the track, I would buy the GT3-R.
Again, YMMV.

Quote]

I think missing my point. Viper really designed to take to the track. Yes, a street car but not only a street car. If you put a SC on it, it immediately becomes a problem (vs a benefit) in a track environment and then loses one of its big benefits. I guess you are saying you want a street only car that cant be used on the track, then put an SC on it.

[

 

[Free2go]

I have to agree with some of the people who have posted here and in other threads: the future of the Viper depends on more horsepower, radical redesign, and a dual clutch transmission. If you want to be a purist on occasion, just keep your old Viper.

 

[ScrewDrvr]

$59.9k

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[sunsalem]

Turbos properly sized come in later but quicker than a blower. That means a FATTER power curve not a peaky one. That takes care of the curve, now lets talk about how much later they come in.... unless you expect 1000lb/ft from 1000rpm you'll get 8.2L of low down grunt that rises beyond factory stock from under 2000rpm, and by 3000rpm you are ahead of a typical blower, and beyond that hang on. Who road races below 3000rpm?

FWIW, I have not driven a modern performance level turbo (ie, AMG, McLaren, etc.).
However, the characteristic of turbo motors you mention makes not want to.

A supercharged engine tends to have a predictable power curve (much like NA).
In fact, I can't tell the difference in behavior in my SC vs. NA vehicles.
SC motors tend to act or feel like an NA, only with more power....NA on steroids, if you will.

I think missing my point. Viper really designed to take to the track. Yes, a street car but not only a street car.

Yes, it's possible to "track" any car.

My point is a REAL track car isn't a streetcar.
Streetcars have AC, airbags, carpet, insulation, sound systems, treaded tires, mufflers, etc.
Remove those things and strip it to its bare essentials, change the suspension components and other systems, and you have a "track car."
Kinda like this thing here:
http://www.drivesrt.com/racing/viper-gt3r/

If you put a SC on it, it immediately becomes a problem (vs a benefit) in a track environment and then loses one of its big benefits. I guess you are saying you want a street only car that cant be used on the track, then put an SC on it.

No, I'm not saying that at all.
I'm saying putting an SC engine (like the Hellcat's) in a Viper shouldn't be a problem in terms of drivability.
Supercharging the 8.4L motor may be problematic, but it isn't SC tech that would be the problem.
Heck, if you get right down to it, take a look at a car company that actually races SC engines:
http://www.lotuscars.com/gb/racing/racing-cars

the future of the Viper depends on more horsepower, radical redesign, and a dual clutch transmission.

From a marketing POV, I agree.
GM is doing just that with its upcoming Z06.

If you want to be a purist on occasion, just keep your old Viper.

This.

 

[sunsalem]

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Whoa, nice find.

 

[05Commemorative]

and this is exactly why the challenger should never be discussed with the Viper. different class of car with a different purpose and this shows the market they have to compete with.

$59.9k

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[05Commemorative]

I think you are confusing a "race" car with a "track" car and drawing too hard lines around it. Your definition describes a race car or a dedicated track car. The minute you put an SC on it, you essentially just created yourself a dedicated street car. Your lotus example is one, but small engine, less heat, etc. My point is, stand behind the problem you are trying to solve and admit you just want more power for the street and don't really care about he track. The quicker you are clear on your intentions, the better. You can't spout off in the same thread that it is not a track car and then say an SC is not a problem for the track pointing to a lotus. Simply put, it is more weight where you don't want it, it will heat soak (by design) without extra cooling (more weight). It is the perfect application for the street though where you have short bursts and no sustained heat generation for longer durations. Don't get me wrong, both of my daily drivers are SC cars and love them for that purpose.

also, a bit silly to say a SC car drives the same as a NA car. Just not the case with either of mine as you definitely can tell the difference in sound, torque curve, etc. SC cars by nature have more torque ealier and less on the top end. Again, not what is desired at the track.

FWIW, I have not driven a modern performance level turbo (ie, AMG, McLaren, etc.).
However, the characteristic of turbo motors you mention makes not want to.

A supercharged engine tends to have a predictable power curve (much like NA).
In fact, I can't tell the difference in behavior in my SC vs. NA vehicles.
SC motors tend to act or feel like an NA, only with more power....NA on steroids, if you will.


Yes, it's possible to "track" any car.

My point is a REAL track car isn't a streetcar.
Streetcars have AC, airbags, carpet, insulation, sound systems, treaded tires, mufflers, etc.
Remove those things and strip it to its bare essentials, change the suspension components and other systems, and you have a "track car."
Kinda like this thing here:
http://www.drivesrt.com/racing/viper-gt3r/


No, I'm not saying that at all.
I'm saying putting an SC engine (like the Hellcat's) in a Viper shouldn't be a problem in terms of drivability.
Supercharging the 8.4L motor may be problematic, but it isn't SC tech that would be the problem.
Heck, if you get right down to it, take a look at a car company that actually races SC engines:
http://www.lotuscars.com/gb/racing/racing-cars


From a marketing POV, I agree.
GM is doing just that with its upcoming Z06.


This.

 

[Flying Viper]

I have to agree with some of the people who have posted here and in other threads: the future of the Viper depends on more horsepower, radical redesign, and a dual clutch transmission. If you want to be a purist on occasion, just keep your old Viper.

Free, your right, this style was gorgeous but now looks old. My biggest request is a radical redesign. With it everything else will come.

 

[05Commemorative]

Free, your right, this style was gorgeous but now looks old. My biggest request is a radical redesign. With it everything else will come.

I would disagree and I am no purist by any definition. The current design in my opinion and anyone I have spoken with is spectacular. I am amazed on EVERY time I drive the car, I have people taking pics with cell-phones while driving and it is all ages (16-60yr olds). It is drivers, passengers, you name it. It stands out and is so curvy unlike virtually anything on the road. So, render the design is not the issue. Now offer and 8sp auto and conv, then you double your buying audience over night.

 

[PDCjonny]

Couldn't disagree more.
IMO it's the single biggest factor in the failure of the Gen 5 introduction.

Sales figures don't lie. It's not the power, it's not the locked ECU (c'mon maybe one guy in a hundred cares about that).
It's the retro styling. Seen it, done it. Eighteen years ago.
It needed to evolve from the Gen 3-4 into a new modern 2013 style. They took the easy way out.
It's Halle Berry on the beach alright. Problem is, she's 47 now.

 

[Texas1]

I would disagree and I am no purist by any definition. The current design in my opinion and anyone I have spoken with is spectacular. I am amazed on EVERY time I drive the car, I have people taking pics with cell-phones while driving and it is all ages (16-60yr olds). It is drivers, passengers, you name it. It stands out and is so curvy unlike virtually anything on the road. So, render the design is not the issue. Now offer and 8sp auto and conv, then you double your buying audience over night.

Could not agree w/ you more!!! It's a definite update from the previous generations in terms of looks, styling, drive ability, power, etc...add a convertible & auto, unlock ECU, and maybe an ACR at some point & this should hopefully help w/ sales!!!

Back to Challenger...looks like a great bang for the buck...

 

[FLL-B/W-GTS]

The Hellcat does compare to the Viper(Real People) and other HP Cars.I mean, a 10 Second car with some 500.00 tires for 60 Grand. That is a insane good deal and one can actually use the car,as a car.The Hellcat is the nail in the Vipers coffin, I mean, who will buy a slower car(Viper)67 less HP , have to shift, burn your women's leg for 60,000.00 more...

Hellcat outstanding 10 Sec.Test and Tune on the cheap....

Dodge had better unlock that computer or provide a after market HP Computer and do some real Wow Factor to the 15 Viper before the nail gets hammered in...

 

[sunsalem]

and this is exactly why the challenger should never be discussed with the Viper. different class of car with a different purpose and this shows the market they have to compete with.

Agreed....two very different cars with very different customer bases.

I think you are confusing a "race" car with a "track" car and drawing too hard lines around it. Your definition describes a race car or a dedicated track car.

OK, fair enough.
Let me try to put my previous posts concerning the subject in the proper context.

As you are aware, the emphasis in the conversation has been revolving around the Viper as a "track car."
Some posters have called the street Viper a "track car."
My point is it isn't, it's a street car some guys take to their local track.

To focus exclusively on the Viper as a track car de-emphasizes its street vehicle credentials.
IMO, this short changes the car and its true purpose (which is to be a great sports car).

The minute you put an SC on it, you essentially just created yourself a dedicated street car.

If Dodge has tested the Hellcat engine in the Viper and found out it is unworkable, then I'll concede the point.
As wonderful as it is, I am not so stuck on having the 8.4L V10 in the Viper forever....maybe this is the source of our contention?

My point is, stand behind the problem you are trying to solve and admit you just want more power for the street and don't really care about he track. The quicker you are clear on your intentions, the better.

FWIW, 640 HP is MORE than enough for a sports car.
Although some guys believe it needs more, I personally don't have a problem with the current power of the V10....
I just want the damn thing to start selling in high enough numbers for Dodge to continue to produce the car.
If more power is needed to start moving 'em off dealer lots, then so be it.

You can't spout off in the same thread that it is not a track car and then say an SC is not a problem for the track pointing to a lotus. Simply put, it is more weight where you don't want it, it will heat soak (by design) without extra cooling (more weight).

Lotus (and others) have shown SC tech can be used on a racetrack.
Whether or not the V10 can handle it isn't my point.

also, a bit silly to say a SC car drives the same as a NA car. Just not the case with either of mine as you definitely can tell the difference in sound, torque curve, etc.

On a dyno, HP also takes a big jump thru the powerband (like torque).
As I said, a SC doesn't need to "spool up," it's online constantly...making its power invisible (so to speak) to the driver.

Sound differences are the result of different sized exhaust to handle the bigger flows coming out of the heads.

SC cars by nature have more torque ealier and less on the top end. Again, not what is desired at the track.

The closer one gets to redline, HP is what's needed....not torque.

It stands out and is so curvy unlike virtually anything on the road. So, render the design is not the issue. Now offer and 8sp auto and conv, then you double your buying audience over night.

+1

 

[sunsalem]

It's not the power, it's not the locked ECU (c'mon maybe one guy in a hundred cares about that).

Agreed.

It needed to evolve from the Gen 3-4 into a new modern 2013 style.

What did you have in mind?

They took the easy way out.

They listened to all those guys who wanted the new Viper to "look like a Viper."
Unfortunately, they forgot the reason the Viper went on hiatus (again) in the first place was because they couldn't sell the look of the old Viper to new customers.

It's Halle Berry on the beach alright. Problem is, she's 47 now.

Hey Now!
What do you have against cougars?

 

[SnakeBitten]

How I see it is that the ACR/SRT/TA, while still being streetcars, can be considered geared toward being more track worthy car. While the GTS with its full upscale leather interior, 18 speaker info-tainment setup etc is definitely the model geared fo the street though it will still kick butt on the track to a lesser degree than the others. So since its obviously the street car out of the other variants why not give that model the factory FI treatment "option"?

 

[IWishIHadaViper]

Couldn't disagree more.
IMO it's the single biggest factor in the failure of the Gen 5 introduction.

Sales figures don't lie. It's not the power, it's not the locked ECU (c'mon maybe one guy in a hundred cares about that).
It's the retro styling. Seen it, done it. Eighteen years ago.
It needed to evolve from the Gen 3-4 into a new modern 2013 style. They took the easy way out.
It's Halle Berry on the beach alright. Problem is, she's 47 now.

Agree 100%.

 

[2003 Viper]

Now here is a burnout to celebrate the $59,995.00 base price!
https://autos.yahoo.com/news/challe...-gear-burnout-celebrate-leaked-141924063.html

 

[2003 Viper]

And here is Ralph Gilles showing the crowd how it's done in the Hellcat!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMVl7FIZkz4

 

[PDCjonny]

Agreed.


What did you have in mind?

Continuing off topic....

I'm not a car designer.
But park a Corvette C7 next to a C6 and ask the general public which is the newer car and they would know in a second.
That's exactly what they needed to do.
A design unmistakably Viper but ultra modern that screams a new generation has arrived.

 

[stingray23]

Couldn't disagree more.
IMO it's the single biggest factor in the failure of the Gen 5 introduction.

Sales figures don't lie. It's not the power, it's not the locked ECU (c'mon maybe one guy in a hundred cares about that).
It's the retro styling. Seen it, done it. Eighteen years ago.
It needed to evolve from the Gen 3-4 into a new modern 2013 style. They took the easy way out.
It's Halle Berry on the beach alright. Problem is, she's 47 now.

I agree 100%.

 

[sunsalem]

But park a Corvette C7 next to a C6 and ask the general public which is the newer car and they would know in a second.

True.
The new creases (lifted from Cadillac's "Art & Science" design theme) on the C7 gives it away as a modern design while still being identifiably and unmistakably a Corvette.

A design unmistakably Viper but ultra modern that screams a new generation has arrived.

Other than creasing, I don't know where it could go....
Anyone have some suggestions?