Chapter III...Trackable?

[Paul Hawker]

It would suprise me very much if CAAP puts out a Viper that cannot be trackable.

It would just like them to offer something very trick like a factory safety cage, (maybe just mounting points) or a removable hardtop with built in cage that would attach to the base car to provide roll over protection. (This could even assist in aerodynamics)

Remember this is the same company who provided standard mounting points for our 5 point driver restraints.

I understand they have come up with a very special way to get side pipes to pass noise regulations. I suspect they have spend just as much creativity for their Chapter III to pass trackside tech.

 

[Venom Lover]

I hope you are correct Paul, because even Motor Trend should be able to get the Ch. 3 car into the 11's, and it would be highly annoying not to be able to take the car to any track without cutting it up to get a rollbar installed.

Also, what are the rules for road racing? I assume most clubs have restrictions on convertibles, unless they have rollbars?

 

[Joseph Houss]

Wasn't everyone racing the gen 1 RT/10's prior to our coupes coming out? What was the protocol back then?

 

[Venom Lover]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mako:
I will just have to struggle through with my Z06 with a C5R 427 (in next month) until the Gen IV GTS-R is out! No flame intended, but I just cannot see cutting up an $80K+ car to get it to the track.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, Mako, how are you doing?

You have the C5R motor going in your Z06? Good stuff. Where do you get the motor, and who's doing the work?

I agree, about cutting up the car. I hope Dodge will have a good solution. I'm not so worried about needing a cage, since I don't see myself doing wheel-to-wheel racing, but if it's sufficient a hardtop would be nice for non-competitive track sessions.

 

[Steve Ferguson]

I have run my RT10 for years without a cage or bar. The same will probably apply to the Chapter III.

The Viper is intended to be a bad *** STREET machine. Anyone who wishes to track a Viper should make their own decision as to what safety features they feel most comfortable. Remember, track has many definitions, Solo I, Road-racing, Drag-racing, Openroad-racing. Obviously each of these different racing venues have different requirements. I would presume that the individual owner needs to make the necessary safety additions. It does not seem that this would be Team Vipers job. They have to make a great streetable vehicle.

If you want a "race car", then buy one. I am sure that the saftey issues would be more than covered.

Happy racing!

 

[Andrew2KRT10]

I'm going to the PDA road course event at Pocono this weekend and although on my RT/10 the rear "roll bar" is not rated as such by Dodge, it is recognized by PDA as acceptable and so I'm okay. I thought of a roll bar, but no way if I can get away like this. Saftey? I just drive within my comfort level.

AC

 

[Venom Lover]

Steve and Andrew,

Do you guys have hard tops for your RTs? For drag racing, you are OK (until ET &lt; 11.99 [NHRA]) with hard top but no rollbar. I'm curious what the rules are for road racing an RT with soft top only.

 

[SoCal Rebell]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steve Ferguson:
I have run my RT10 for years without a cage or bar. The same will probably apply to the Chapter III.

The Viper is intended to be a bad *** STREET machine. Anyone who wishes to track a Viper should make their own decision as to what safety features they feel most comfortable. Remember, track has many definitions, Solo I, Road-racing, Drag-racing, Openroad-racing. Obviously each of these different racing venues have different requirements. I would presume that the individual owner needs to make the necessary safety additions. It does not seem that this would be Team Vipers job. They have to make a great streetable vehicle.

If you want a "race car", then buy one. I am sure that the saftey issues would be more than covered.

Happy racing!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


So Steve what you're basiclly saying is this car will NOT be allowed on the track and if we want to track out cars not to buy a Gen 3. And by the way I thought the Viper was a "race car" which was my whole point in buying it.

I've had a deposit on a 2003 for 8 months now but am seriously re-considering because "NO TRACK" in the country will let a convertible run unless you cut it up. I was told I'd need an 8 point rollcage to race.

I've seen this thread a couple of times and everyone always "didn't know" or skirted the issue but the bottom line is, out of the factory the Chapter 3 is a street car only no track racing, what a pity, shame on DC for not taking this into consideration this is a crime and a VERY sad day.

 

[PMUM]

??riginally posted by Mako:
Roll CAGE for full race group--not roll BAR. In California, the car will probably need a roll cage or a hardtop to get on the track with most clubs.

[/QUOTE]

A four point roll BAR is sufficient to get you on every single road course in CA with a convertible. To race door to door you'll need a roll cage with most groups. Although, there are even a few clubs that will allow you to race door to door with just a 4 pt. bar.

 

[Viperrick]

Rebel, I think you need to look at what you put a deposit down on. First of all I don't know who took the deposit but there has been no information released for dealers to take orders on a 2003. If you thought that this Viper was a race car than you must be talking about a differant Viper (real GTS-R?). The Viper has always been a STREET car which some owners have taken to the track. The new 2003 RT-10 convertible is also a street car. If you plan on racing it than you will have to modify it.

 

[Steve Ferguson]

SoCal, the Viper is a production car. The GTR-R is a race car. I did NOT say the Viper would "not" be a trackable car. Please re-read what I posted. If you want to track it, it is your responsibility to make it safe for the environment or track you intend to drive on.

As for being banned by any track? I do not believe that that is the case. I have run WITHOUT a top, (soft or hard)all over the country. Now my Viper is 100% stock. If I chose to modify it for track purpose, then I should also be responsible to make sure the added performance has added safety.

I have never heard of a track that requires an 8-point cage to enter a track, if you are driving a stock Viper?

As the case with the original Viper, the car will come with a decorative "roll" protection. As in the first case, this two will not be called "roll-over protection" because then the public could then claim that it was provided by the factory (big law suite potential).

So again, if you desire a race car then purchase one.

The Chapter three will be a great performer on the track, but thinking that this version or the previous one was designed for this reason would be incorrect.

As for "road course" requirements? Each organization has their own rules. You would need to find out on an individual basis. Wish I could tell you more, but there is no possible way to know the rules and regulations of every organization and track in the world.

Hope this helps!

BTW. I have been on 16 tracks in 12 States that allowed me to run with no top.

 

[Janni]

We all have to remember that this is a new chapter for Viper. When the original RT/10s came out, we were just thrilled they built it at all. Then, we got a taste of Vipers racing (the GTS-Rs) and that spawned the GTS coupe - that, even though it went to market 4 years later, had been shown at Auto shows for at least 1.5 years previous. So now we have a large Viper contingent that want to be able to take their car to the track.

Many SVE members have referred to the Viper as a "street legal race car" and it is Herb's job to see that it stays that way - not too gadgety / gimmicky. I believe that the only way they convinced Herb to add ABS was to let him drive 2 cars with and without on a ROAD COURSE. I would not expect the Prowler to come out with anything that coulds be trackable, but the Viper MUST. The Europeans have a rich history in motorsport, and I have to think that they will want a car that can compete on the track. I mean even the CORVETTE

has a hardtop that is advertised as being more for the road racer. How could we be the "bad a$$ street machine" and not have something to compete with that???? The horrors.

With little discussion about a follow on coupe, these questions will continue to surface. It IS NOT unreasonable to ask when DC will provide a product that will allow the track rats to drive their Chapter 3s on road courses. Whether that is a hardtop option or a coupe version, I don't know, but it need to be addressed. More and more tracks (road courses here - as that is what I am familiar with...) WILL NOT let RT/10s run without a hardtop. Its a safety thing. I enjoy road courses, but I am not going that fast and really don't want to put a cage in my car - I'd consider a roll bar as long as it was not too intrusive and required too much interior modification. Maybe that could be taken into consideration when building the Chapter 3 - just make it easy to add a roll bar....

Yes, we love our cars, but unless there is a reasonable way to track a Chapter 3 (coupe version or easy roll bar install) I would never sell my coupe to get one - it'd be a pleasure only car - and why have all that HP and handling if you cannot drive it on the track????

 

[SoCal Rebell]

Viperrick,
My deposit is with Bill Pemperton at Woodhouse Dodge.

Steve,
First of all you would never, ever get your car on ANY dragstrip without a hardtop or 6 point rollbar. Your sports bar will NOT qualify nor will having the soft top on. You may have been lucky to have the tracks you've raced on think the sports bar is a roll bar or they are lax in their ruls but that's a crap shoot IMHO.

But that's all besides the point, you're comparing apples to oranges, you as well as I have TARGAS this is a TRUE CONVERTIBLE that is a HUGE difference. With our RTs we can always put our hardtops on and race, which I do frequently. With a true converible with no hardtop you will NOT be able to track your car, and anyone who pays the $80,000-$90,000 price and expects to do so is taking a major gamble at best.

You have been venomously (pardon the pun) defending the Gen 3 since day one, I know you've have many discussions with Dodge from what I gather and you want to give it good PR on this board, but please don't mis-lead these people to thinking this car out of the factory will be able to track. it ain't so.

 

[Steve Ferguson]

The Chapter III will be as track friendly as the original, except this one will have better brakes and was designed for performance first, looks second (the opposite of the original).

For those of you who want something "dedicated" to the track, get your checkbooks ready! (put your money where you mouth is)

For those who want to track a "street car", then you have the option to do what your particular venues require to meet their safety standards.

The Team is proud to build a car that makes you feel like you have a race car. But remember that there are just as many out there that have no intention of ever taking their Viper to the track.

So I guess there should be a track version and a street version?

Please respond, thanks.

 

[PMUM]

I'm not overly knowledgeable in the fine art of drag racing (or as some people call it..."floorin' it!"), but I thought that if you run under 12sec. they require a bar regardless of roof. Is that true? The Gen III should be a high 11 sec car, so it would require a roll bar anyway for the drag racers wouldn't it?

 

[Steve Ferguson]

SoCal, I race at drag strips regularly, and have NEVER used a Hard Top. Maybe that is a California rule, I don't know. But in Michigan, Illinois, Florida and Wisconsin I have run as many passes as I wanted without the top. Must be a regional thing?

In the State of Illinois, the RT10 I have is defined as a convertible (at least that is what my title says), as will the new car, so saying they are any different make no sense to me. Roll hoops vs. sport cap? They serve the same purpose LOOKS.

Now if you are talking about modified Vipers then this discussion has no reason to continue, since they are two totally different subjects?

Who's to say that the Chapter III won't come with a hard top option? (And no, I have never heard of this, but simply throwing it out there as a possibility)

 

[Nsane1]

SoCal, I hate to be the guy that says "you are wrong" but you are. I have video, on my machine, of an RT running a strip without a top at Ennis (Texas Motorplex). I have run about 15 track events, every single one of them have had RTs, no tops.

I personally am on the list to get a 03, and I have no worries about getting on the track. If it's a serious race, I'll bring the GTS.

As far as hard tops go, I have every belief that some smart guy will sell one, for several grand, and I'll buy one. Why is everyone thinking this car is going to be so different than the other?? maybe I'm missing something.

 

[JonB]

HOT THREAD! Short answer on roll-cage: LAWYERS!!

D-C lawyers would not likely permit them as a factory device, or factory-encouraged addition. Lookit the 98-2000 ACR-GT2 5-point situation. Virtually "ignored" by D-C as if it were the uglee stepsister. Maybe It'll go away!!

 

[Venom Lover]

Guys, maybe this is a California thing, but I guarantee you SoCal Rebell and I have witnessed guys with RT/10's and soft-top only getting the boot at tracks here in CA. This is odd, because whether you're in Texas or CA, you would think the same NHRA rules would apply, but apparently not. I think the officials like to pick on Viper owners out here, but perhaps I'm being paranoid. Anyway, I have witnessed guys getting the boot in person, so I know this is not BS.

In fact, I have seen track officials (at Famoso) give a C5 coupe owner the boot for running in the 13's because he had a removable top. I'm not kidding.

I'm glad to hear officials at Texas tracks aren't so AR. If I ever have to move there, that will be one benefit.

PMUM is correct, anybody running &lt;11.99 will be required to have a rollbar, coupe or convertible, according to NHRA rules. At IHRA tracks, the cutoff is 11.49. Again, that's nice for people who live in other parts of the country, but all tracks are NHRA in SoCal.

Technically speaking, the NHRA rules state that convertibles running from 13.99 down to 10.99 need a rollbar; coupes running from 11.99 down to 9.99 need a rollbar. Whether or not track officials in Texas choose to declare that an RT/10 with soft top is a convertible is another matter, and I'm glad for you they don't, but officials here in CA do.

But in point of fact, none of this matters, because the '03 Viper is easily going to be an 11 second car, meaning even Motor Trend will get it in the 11's. Therefore, a rollbar will be required whether or not you have an after-market removable hard top. End of discussion, unless track officials choose not to enforce NHRA rules.

 

[Ulysses]

One thing I have noticed is that track rules outweigh NHRA rules, so it is quite possible that the NHRA does not require a hard top, but the track does.

 

[Venom Lover]

Ulysses, technically I believe the NHRA rules require a rollbar for RT/10's under 13.99. Perhaps the NHRA cognoscenti can correct me if I'm wrong on this point. If a track decides to let an RT/10 run with a hardtop but no rollbar, that's their call.
So, yes, all that matters is what the officials say at the track, but it sounds like CA tracks are much more strict in their adherence to the rules.

 

[Steve Ferguson]

Since this is starting to look like a California issue and a Drag racing rule, I think someone might want to call whatever sanctioning body their local track uses and find out what the rules are?

I know that last year at Route 66 in Illinois, Vipers running in the 11's were not asked to stop taking runs. One then did a 10 second run and was immediately told that they could no longer run.

 

[BWoodbury]

It all seems to depend on the day and the Tech Inspector. At the Regional at Route 66 when I told him I was going to run 12.20's he told me I needed a drive shaft loop. He still let me run, but the track rules seem to be real inconsistant.

 

[Steve Ferguson]

Maybe a lot of the rules are in place because of what Some Viper's have done rather than what all stock Viper's typically do? This is probably why Team Viper avoids it all together, since there is no way they could comply with all the different rules from the different organizations, in different parts of the land?