Viper Scot
Viper Owner
What welders were Dodge employing to work on the Viper chassis in 1996? A very amateur standard of welding! Is this generally true of Vipers, Gen 1s or just a one-off?
Chassis welding on '96 RT-10
- Thread starter Viper Scot
- Start date
dave6666
Enthusiast
Out of sight, out of mind?!? But really, I have seen a few posts about the quality of workmanship down under on these cars. I'm sure someone that knows more will pipe in soon. My Chrysler Viper Body Frame Contruction And Repair book states "qualified welders" to work on the vehicle. Hmm. An after thought?
WOT!
Enthusiast
I'd like to see pics. I have a 96 RT and I don't see any problem with the welds. May not be perfect, but not bad either. Now you got to know, I'm not a welder, but have been around the shop enough to have an opinion.
IL96RT10
Viper Owner
What is wrong with the welds on the 96?
whitebluevipe
Enthusiast
are these the welds done during the 996 frame recall?
GTS Dean
Enthusiast
All the frame welding was done by hand at a Canadian supplier. The welding process was flux-core wire feed, to remove impurities caused by corrosion resistance coating of the tubing. Completed frame assemblies were shipped to New Mack and Conner Ave. plants for line build-up. Flux core welds are not as pretty as MIG - plain and simple.
WOT!
Enthusiast
Now there's good information for ya. Good to know, thanks for posting.
Viper Scot
Viper Owner
I'm not an expert welder either but what I saw was, while not cause for concern, a bit disappointing. But the post 2 above has reassured me somewhat! 
Craig 201 MPH
Enthusiast
blame canada
dave6666
Enthusiast
When you get bored, reweld the whole car. You'll learn more about it than all of us combined know now. Well, 'cept the Wizard.
2000_Black_RT10
Enthusiast
I need to get a life, you guys had me weld some scrap steel with a flux core MIG welder.. as you can see with a flux core wire there is splatter, but the weld is good.. if it's worse than this I would be disappointed because I'm just a hobbyist..
Gas fed MIG would be cleaner, and TIG would be beautiful, especially by a pro or robot. Hand MIG welding is the last expensive method for low volume, the Viper frame was done in Windsor by a company called Fabco, they mention it on their website also.
http://www.tkafabco.com/products.htm
Welds are going to be better on a high volume car, higher tolerances, better fixtures / jigs and mostly robotic / controlled welding, tooling, etc.. Unfortunately people tend to think they get a premium manufactured car because of the cost, but it's not always the case. The cost of manufacturing and tooling is justified the volume ROI. There's minimal tooling and more hand fabricating on the Viper, no sense building a $500,000 die for a couple thousand frame rails or hydroforming crossmembers, etc. since the efficiency in reduced time to manufacture and volume is low, such as 1500 cars per year compared to the Windsor Chrysler minivan plant which produces 330,000 minivans per year, the low volume car would be extremely expensive to make a profit in the end with the same tooling and manufacturing processes. As I was told before in the Viper group, you could build the frame in your garage if you can weld, cut and bend steel, because practically nothing was punched by a press..
Fabco also had the first Canadian Viper, there's a picture of it that I posted in the Ontario forum, the first Canadian Viper.. In the end, the Viper is an impressive feat by those who designed and built with a limited budget compared to higher volume cars. Corvettes have a much higher budget, much more engineering resources, more tooling, more carryover parts, etc.. because of the high volume at around 20,000 per year, in 1984 it was the highest at 51,547 per year.. People tend to compare the 2 cars, and I am more impressed with the Viper because of the limited resources in comparison to build it. I've been involved with tooling for Corvettes in the past, the life expectancy of a tool (mold / die) required is usually 7 - 9 years. Nothing against Corvettes, we own a C5, and it's a good car, but it's not a Viper.
It's a trade off.. if it was manufactured and designed similar to a high volume car (all the good stuff, corrosion protection, all the tooling, etc..), it would probably cost more than $500k at such a low volume, or 100,000 volume per year car that is more common (hypothetically if there were that many buyers..) guessing it would cost $40k, or a what we have today as a low volume, moderately expensive and relatively rare. It's kind of what happened to the Hummer, the H1 is similar to the Viper in that respect being a hand built rare brute of a vehicle in the same price range, but GM found the niche for a high volume H2 / H3 and now they are more common.
This is the longest reply I have ever made, all because of a weld..
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Gas fed MIG would be cleaner, and TIG would be beautiful, especially by a pro or robot. Hand MIG welding is the last expensive method for low volume, the Viper frame was done in Windsor by a company called Fabco, they mention it on their website also.
http://www.tkafabco.com/products.htm
Welds are going to be better on a high volume car, higher tolerances, better fixtures / jigs and mostly robotic / controlled welding, tooling, etc.. Unfortunately people tend to think they get a premium manufactured car because of the cost, but it's not always the case. The cost of manufacturing and tooling is justified the volume ROI. There's minimal tooling and more hand fabricating on the Viper, no sense building a $500,000 die for a couple thousand frame rails or hydroforming crossmembers, etc. since the efficiency in reduced time to manufacture and volume is low, such as 1500 cars per year compared to the Windsor Chrysler minivan plant which produces 330,000 minivans per year, the low volume car would be extremely expensive to make a profit in the end with the same tooling and manufacturing processes. As I was told before in the Viper group, you could build the frame in your garage if you can weld, cut and bend steel, because practically nothing was punched by a press..
Fabco also had the first Canadian Viper, there's a picture of it that I posted in the Ontario forum, the first Canadian Viper.. In the end, the Viper is an impressive feat by those who designed and built with a limited budget compared to higher volume cars. Corvettes have a much higher budget, much more engineering resources, more tooling, more carryover parts, etc.. because of the high volume at around 20,000 per year, in 1984 it was the highest at 51,547 per year.. People tend to compare the 2 cars, and I am more impressed with the Viper because of the limited resources in comparison to build it. I've been involved with tooling for Corvettes in the past, the life expectancy of a tool (mold / die) required is usually 7 - 9 years. Nothing against Corvettes, we own a C5, and it's a good car, but it's not a Viper.
It's a trade off.. if it was manufactured and designed similar to a high volume car (all the good stuff, corrosion protection, all the tooling, etc..), it would probably cost more than $500k at such a low volume, or 100,000 volume per year car that is more common (hypothetically if there were that many buyers..) guessing it would cost $40k, or a what we have today as a low volume, moderately expensive and relatively rare. It's kind of what happened to the Hummer, the H1 is similar to the Viper in that respect being a hand built rare brute of a vehicle in the same price range, but GM found the niche for a high volume H2 / H3 and now they are more common.
This is the longest reply I have ever made, all because of a weld..
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dave6666
Enthusiast
Great post. You don't need a life, you need a beer after that. And my TIG does looks better than your MIG...
2snakes4us
Enthusiast
Dean is correct
, I am a hobbyist welder for 28 years and i checked my welds out on my 94, and they are fine. All good welders still have a level of beauty to each of their welds.2000_Black_RT10
Enthusiast
I've procrastinated for too long now, I need to buy a TIG, and thanks, definitely appreciate good bourbon or whiskey when applicable.
When I started shopping for a Viper 2 years ago I was told by one of the Viper Techs that SOME of the earlier Viper frames had really bad welds. He said that I should look at a few of the frame welds and make sure they looked good. If they didn't I should expect to reweld the entire frame as a few slipped through the quality checks and they should be fixed.
Ted
Ted
I was told you want to flux core weld anything on the frame. Not to use gas.
GTSjbud
Viper Owner
That totally explains why all the weld spatter on the frame of my 96 GTS. I have spent the last couple of days cleaning the frame and removing all the weld spatter. Why? Because I am a perfectionist...ya never know when someone may run their hands over your frame.
dave6666
Enthusiast
That totally explains why all the weld spatter on the frame of my 96 GTS. I have spent the last couple of days cleaning the frame and removing all the weld spatter. Why? Because I am a perfectionist...ya never know when someone may run their hands over your frame.
How many cases of beer does it take to clean the weld splatter off of a Viper frame?!?
