Check Engine Light Observations

Marc Lublin

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Many with the 2000 & 2001 Vipers have had problems with the check engine lights after exhaust modifications. To my knowledge there is no 100% fix. Just want to let you know my observations of what happens when light goes on. Maybe someone can figure out a simple solution through this info.

My cars motor is pretty done up. Heads, cam, intake, Ballangers, exhaust and Roe's computer. The check engine light comes on every few hundred miles and probably stays on for less the 100 miles. When it comes on I see a big change on Seans A/F ratio meter. At idle instead of fluctuating back and fourth it pins the meter on rich. The car is burning so rich that at a light I can definitely smell it. When NOT running WOT it is also very rich with a tendency to stay on one color (on Seans gauge) as opposed to moving all over the place. At WOT it looks pretty normal and not excessively rich. Over time the gauge starts to act normally. I can usually tell a day or two in advance of the Check Engine turning off, because the A/F gauge looks normal as if the computer is relearning something.

Hope this info can help with a cure!
 

LTHL VPR

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Has anyone tried the rear O2 simulators that are our there? I know they work well on Dakotas, Durangos, etc.. that use a very similar PCM when the cats are removed.
 

Martin D

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Marc,

Good info... I have fluctuation problems with my Mopar PCM as well. I hope the future Performance computer clears this up. Do you get any kind of hesitation under light throttle or when cold?

What kind of numbers are you putting to the ground with your setup?

Regards,

Martin
 

HogWhisperer

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LTHL VPR:
Has anyone tried the rear O2 simulators that are our there? I know they work well on Dakotas, Durangos, etc.. that use a very similar PCM when the cats are removed.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a matter of fact I have. Two sets from Sean Roe and two sets from HMS. Still have the Check Engine light with codes for rear O2 sensors (left bank & right bank).

Not to say they may not work for you but they didn't for me.

Still putting down good RWHP #'s (443 rwhp & 478 ft lbs torque)for the mods I have which are very modest, but would still like to get rid of the C.E.L..
 

treynor

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The original post states that the mixture fluctuations occur with the ROE computer (i.e., the VEC-1) and says nothing about the Mopar ECU. They're two different things.

FWIW, I see the same behavior with my stock ECU and Roe a/f gauge. Check engine light comes on, mixture goes rich and stays there, then gradually corrects over time. With the MOPAR ECU, the check engine light never comes on.
 
OP
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M

Marc Lublin

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Martin,
I haven't ever had the car on a dyno so I honestly don't know. I don't feel any problem with the car though.
What I said about Sean Roe's computer was just in reference to the A/F gauge. It has nothing to do with the VEC1. Even if I have both dials set on Zero(basically as if it wasn't installed) when the check engine light is on the A?F gauge still doesn't fluctuate like it should and stays very rich until something in the computer relearns. Then the next day the light is off. I think the VEC1 is great. Without it the car will run too rich at WOT.
 

Martin D

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Sometimes I have a difficult time making myself clear...
That is what I hate about these posts - there is no expression - just words.

Anyway, what I was saying is that I have had fluctuations in my A/F mixture with the Mopar ECU. I am aware of the VEC-1 and it's capabilities. I guess to put it simply I was implying that my Mopar ECU seems to have trouble with the mixture and acts like it constantly is relearning. So although I do not get a check engine light, I still have a cycle similar to what you guys are describing with the OEM ECU. However, I don't get the check light.

Regards,

Martin
 

phiebert

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I've had recent check engine lights problems since installing a different exhaust but I have a '94 RT. Is this supposed to be just a '00 or '01 problem? I don't have anything whereby I can monitor the a/f ratio but if I do the key flip flop thing it gives me a code 23. Apparently that is complaining about the intake air temperature sensor being at high or low voltage, not really an exhaust issue.

I guess I'm just throwing this in to add more data points.
 

Sean Roe

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The times your check engine light is on, the PCM is running the car in "safe" mode (depending on the code). Light on, lack of power (rich mixture, little spark advance) is "normal" during this time.

Unfortunately, this doesn't help you guys at all.

I dabbled in testing a solution with Paul B last year as he had mentioned. But, since my car is a '96 and doesn't have these problems, what I sent Paul to try didn't work. Basically, I had made an O2 signal emulator. I think it worked for Paul a few days, but eventually, the PCM checked the downstream O2 voltage at a time where what I was making it read was incorrect for what the PCM was pre-programmed to see.

EDIT--- The signal emulators we sent Paul were for the downstream O2's on his '99 GTS. His car had no cats with an aftermarket exhaust and was setting the check engine light. I just wanted to clarify that. I have not done anything to attempt to correct or alter the O2 heater monitor code as Rich and Dan describe below. Those guys have you on the right track. It seems there are two issues; no cats getting a light and headers getting a light. ----EDIT

Wish I could help more, but we just don't see any cars with the problem come through our doors.
 

Rich Carlson

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JonB - PartsRack:
And remember, 2001 Owners Only. There is a TSB that may help that issue:

TSB # 18-011-01. Dealers may NOT have it yet...comes on CD-ROM 2X/month...just released very recently
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TSB 18-11-01 is for one of two items found on JTEC controllers. Part one has to do with MIL code P0071 which is Battery Temperature Sensor Performance which is for 2001 trucks. Part two of the TSB is for the 2001 Viper that has the code P0135 or P0141 which is for the O2 sensor HEATER performance. There is reflash to modify the sensitivity of the testing of the heater. The TSB and the reflash has been in the dealers hands for more than a week now.

My concern is that we are going to see a number of Vipers owners trying to get quick fix for a problem that has been created by a modification to the vehicle. The dealer is NOT to reflash a controller if it does not meet the specifications of the TSB. It is based on specific calibration level of the controller. If the dealer starts reflashing any conroller, this will create a red flag in the warranty area, where SVE now starts looking for a problem that doesn't exist.

The best way to solve the problem is to look at what fault codes are being created by the controller and fix the root problem. I.E. is the O2 running to LEAN or to RICH === solve the problem. Did the modifications require you to CUT the wiring loom or the sensor wiring and splice extra wiring to make it longer????? This can be a problem i.e. the sensor wiring is a special wire.

The bottom line is, don't blame the controller for doing its job. Look at the modifications being made. Understanding how the JTEC does its job and how OBD II works is key to solving the problems. Hey Sean, I think you and I need to talk about this issue. Sounds like an opportunity for you.
 

JonB

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And remember, 2001 Owners Only. There is a TSB that may help that issue:

TSB # 18-011-01. Dealers may NOT have it yet...comes on CD-ROM 2X/month...just released very recently
 

Steve 00RT/10

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I just came back from a diagnostic check up. We have the full Belanger set up/no cats. I have had the trouble light since 80 miles after the system was installed three weeks ago. We have about 800 miles on the set up now. 3 codes came up: PO135&PO155 are O2 heater failures. The third code was a PO420. This relates to 'efficiency failure' and has to do with having no cats. The mechanic told me he could possibly make the heater codes go away using a prior truck TSB for that problem, but not the PO420. He gave me a short course on how all this works together, but my hard drive went into overload. Re-flashing the controller was not an option as there are no TSB's for this problem on a 2000 Viper. He said when you reflash the controller, it has to be downloaded from Chrysler via an established TSB for a particular vehicle. Chrsyler then has a permanent record of the re-flash. The gov't has to approve any emisssions changes made to a vehicle. Emissions TSB's that make it to the dealer have that approval. Still waiting for the real fix to show up. When is this new controller supposed to be out?

Steve
 

DonMc

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i have a 00 acr, put on tnt headers, 3" high flo cats/exhaust and got the engine light, i thought it was rear o2 due to high flo cats but turned out was front left heater failure...it didn't make sense till now...i noticed same too rich on my vec1...i am a bit confused on the tsb in this thread i have seen 01 only as well as 00-01 vipers which is it??....will the length of the o2 extenders affect the heater timing?? hard to believe 8 to 10 inches will make a difference...
 

wiseasp

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hard to believe 8 to 10 inches will make a difference...

I am sure it will...but I think I am talking about something else
biggrin.gif


I have the full Belanger set up and have NOT had the check engine light come on yet. I called the Viper Tech at the dodge dealer and he said that he would reflash the computer for free.

I will wait and see if it comes on.
 

kverges

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Sean and Rich and Dan explained it well, as far as I know. Here is some more that might help.

The "fixable" problem via PCM flash has to do with the "primary" or upstream O2 sensor. As I understand federal emissions regs, a big change over recent years has been start-up emissions. Until the O2 sensor gets hot it won't read right and the engine can't go into "closed loop." Closed loop operation uses the O2 sensor output to fine-trim the injector pulsewidths to run the engine lean enough for minimum emissions. Anyway, the O2 sensor heater helps things along AND allows the computer to check the O2 sensor temperature, because the heater wire resistance increases with temperature. The PCM therefore supplies voltage & current to the primary O2 sensor and also reads the voltage across the heater circuit to see how hot the O2 sensor has gotten. If the O2 sensor does not heat up quickly (something like only 20 sec after start up!) then a code is set. I think the reflash basically tells the computer to give the O2 sensor more time to warm up. Along those lines, I also believe the '98-up headers were the result of emissions, as they are light and "double-walled" so that the inside tubing gets hot quickly to allow rapid transfer of heat to the O2 and to "light off the cat."

Right so far Rich, Sean, Dan et al?

Now, the non-fixable problem (as far as dealers and federal law for street-driven cars is concerned) is the downstream or "secondary" O2 sensors. OBD2 requirements added a secondary O2 sensor to ALL cars, such that there is one O2 sensor (primary) in front of each catalytic converter and one behind or downstream (secondary). A '96-up Viper and any other dual-exhaust car therefore has 4 O2 sensors, 2 primary and two secondary on the left and right side of the exhaust system. As mentioned above, the primary is used to directly control the engine in closed loop mode and is a good thing. It should never be tinkered with on a street-driven car, as it avoids overly rich or lean conditions in routine driving and allows the car to compensate for long-term changes in injector flow rates and other things. At WOT (wide-open throttle) the car no longer runs open loop, so the primary O2 sensor is also not an impediment to performance. So leave the primary O2 in place for all applications!

As far as I know, the secondary O2 sensor does only one task. It checks the "efficiency" of the catalytic converter. The whole concept of OBD is "on-board diagnostics," hence the ability to check if any component, including emissions controls, is not functioning properly (or absent). Mods just got more complicated, since you now have to know the strategy by which the PCM checks emission-related parts if you want to change them.

How am I doing so far?

I think (and this is where my limited knowledge starts to really taper off) that the secondary O2 is generally designed to compare its output to that of the upstream O2 sensor. For example, the primary O2 will "dither" back & forth around an output of about .5 volt. Higher voltages are rich, lower voltages are lean, and the computer constantly goes back & forth a little bit to average out right at stoichiometric (i.e. A/F ratio of 14.7:1). The cat then processes the overly rich exhaust by oxidizing the excess hydrocarbons and the secondary O2 will also dither, just not as frequently as the primary. I am sure there is engineering data that shows for primary O2 sensors that dither around say 20 times in 10 seconds, an "efficient" cat will result in a secondary O2 dither rate of about 10 times in 10 seconds or some such.

Hence the trickery. You can make a secondary O2 "emulator" (there are several on the market and some circuit designs out there) that will "dither" around .5 volts at some fixed rate that is hopefully within the range the PCM is expecting to see. Unfortunately, that may not be good enough. The PCM may also want to see a steady "rich" voltage at WOT and a steady "lean" when coasting down on lift throttle or may actually compare the dither rates or myriad other stuff. I suspect the PCM strategy may also have changed over the years, as the EPA probably mandates strategies that are difficult to bypass.

Now I'll bet that Rich and others may know more than they can say. It is very illegal to eliminate or bypass emissions controls and so they can't facilitate such efforts. So you can forget any dealer re-flash to disable secondary O2 sensors if you remove the cat.

For off-road purposes, I am also experimenting with secondary O2 sensor emulators, but have made precious little progress, since it is a pure hobby for me. I will post and crow over any success, but ONLY for off-road.

So for right now, it appears that you can add headers and fix any resulting check engine light. But if you want to remove cats, I don't know if anyone has successfully emulated the Viper secondary O2s. If they have, I'll take a set. You are likely better off with high-flow cats. That said, in the GM context, I have heard that high-flow cats tend to have a short service life and on my supercharged C4 I lose quite a bit of power with cats.

Geek-nerd signing off for now.
 

Tom F&L GoR

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Only a little experience myself, but I believe Keith is pretty close. However, the secondary O2 sensor would probably dither at the same rate as the primary, just show far less extremes in voltage. I would guess it never shows rich, unless at WOT, but would dither a little lean whenever the primary O2 shows a little lean. So for the electronics guys, what about a creating a secondary O2 signal based on the primary O2 sensor, but highly damped, perhaps limited on the rich side, maybe with a slight timing delay? In other words, use a modified primary signal for the secondary sensor input to the ECU?
 

DonMc

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here is the answer i got from one of the guys on the web that posted a simple circuit for o2 simulator.....

"First O2 signal changes once per second. If second O2 signal is not changing
or changing more then once per 2 seconds the ECU will set the code. So same
signal will not work. You could add some kind of frequency divider, but
either it will be way more complex than just standalone signal generator, or
it will screw up the accuracy of 1-st O2 readings which is very important
for fuel map."

has anyone tried the o2 simultors from casper electronics??
 

Ulysses

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Keith,

That was a great write up of how the system works. Thanks.

I guess to conquer this problem, we have to have a better understanding of how the sensor works. Apparently, there are two basic types of sensors, zirconia and titania. Zirconia derives a voltage output from heat and oxygen content, titania derives a resistance from heat and oxygen content. I think the Viper uses the zirconia type.

Beyond that, there are sensors that have a heater in them, the two or three wired type, which are usually the down stream sensors, and there are the single wired type that are heated by the exhaust/metal around them. The latter being the ones usually used upstream.

The different wires used were unshielded (standard wire) and shielded. Shielded being the thicker of the two. I haven't looked at the upstream sensor, but the down stream sensor is definitely the thin unshielded type with a hard coating (probably hard coating to facilitate easier routing away from the exhaust). Shielded types are the hard ones to extend because the more connectors you add on, the easier it is to introduce noise/interference into the system that will most likely cause false readings.

I'm not sure a simple frequency divider is the solution to the problem here. Since the system is constantly monitoring voltage levels, that suggests that it is an analog routine.

Here is a good write up on zirconia type sensors:

How does an O2 sensor work?

An Oxygen sensor is a chemical generator. It is constantly making a comparison between the Oxygen inside the exhaust
manifold and air outside the engine. If this comparison shows little or no Oxygen in the exhaust manifold, a voltage is generated.
The output of the sensor is usually between 0 and 1.1 volts. All spark combustion engines need the proper air fuel ratio to operate
correctly. For gasoline this is 14.7 parts of air to one part of fuel. When the engine has more fuel than needed, all available
Oxygen is consumed in the cylinder and gasses leaving through the exhaust contain almost no Oxygen. This sends out a voltage
greater than 0.45 volts. If the engine is running lean, all fuel is burned, and the extra Oxygen leaves the cylinder and flows into
the exhaust. In this case, the sensor voltage goes lower than 0.45 volts. Usually the output range seen seen is 0.2 to 0.7 volts. The
sensor does not begin to generate it's full output until it reaches about 600 degrees F. Prior to this time the sensor is not
conductive. It is as if the circuit between the sensor and computer is not complete. The mid point is about 0.45 volts. This is
neither rich nor lean. A fully warm O2 sensor *will not spend any time at 0.45 volts*. In many cars, the computer sends out a
bias voltage of 0.45 through the O2 sensor wire. If the sensor is not warm, or if the circuit is not complete, the computer picks up
a steady 0.45 volts. Since the computer knows this is an "illegal" value, it judges the sensor to not be ready. It remains in open
loop operation, and uses all sensors except the O2 to determine fuel delivery. Any time an engine is operated in open loop, it runs
somewhat rich and makes more exhaust emissions. This translates into lost power, poor fuel economy and air pollution. The O2
sensor is constantly in a state of transition between high and low voltage. Manfucturers call this crossing of the 0.45 volt mark
O2 cross counts. The higher the number of O2 cross counts, the better the sensor and other parts of the computer control system
are working. It is important to remember that the O2 sensor is comparing the amount of Oxygen inside and outside the engine.
If the outside of the sensor should become blocked, or coated with oil, sound insulation, undercoating or antifreeze, (among
other things), this comparison is not possible.
 

8AVETTE

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last year i put borla headers on my 00 rt and got the light right away .i changed the pcm to the mopar viper after market pcm and the light never came on after that. i put 5000 miles on the car before i sold it. now i have my 01 gts acr have btr headers coming.just thought i would let you now what worked for me.

Don
 

Steve 00RT/10

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Possibly this could be a new topic, but I would like to ask the question: Has anyone had a check engine light come on that was non-emission related? I have yet to hear anyone tell of a serious engine problem which the check engine light alerted them to.

Steve
 

Kevin ACR

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
We have what must be close to 100 customers with 00-01 Vipers with header/exhaust upgrades either on otherwise stock Vipers or further modified motors. The rear O2 sims kit and/or the Mopar PCM has safely taken care of the check engine light issue every time.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John,

I want to be sure I don't misunderstand the above statement. I read it to mean that it takes the 02 sims and Mopar PCM together, or just the PCM alone took care of the check engine light situation. I also read into it that the 02 sims alone do not take care of the problem.

Question, do you always start with the PCM and if that doesn't work go to the sims in addition to the PCM?

Thanks

Kevin
 

wiseasp

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I have a 2001 with full belanger kit (headers, High flow cats, 3 inch exhaust) and have NOT had the check engine light come on.

The kit has been on the car now for about 1000 miles.


Watch tomorrow I will drive the car and that Dam (can't put D**n because it will get censored) light will come on
devil.gif
devil.gif
pissed.gif
 

RickV2K

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let's hope some of the engineers at DC are reading these posts. kinda ironic that so few vipers are being made each year with so many little nagging problems.
 

JonB

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PartsRack has several Belanger customers w/ 2000-2001 that have had either NO warnings, or only occasional / intermittent warnings. Belanger has been working to provide beneficial O-2 placement, and seems to have licket this problem.

100% of the systems installed by Belanger at his shop are light-free ! So care and re-install of O2 sensors is apparently important.
 

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