Check Engine Light(temporary solution)

[Marc Lublin]

We have all talked about the check engine light situation in 2000 & 01 Vipers. I own a 2000 which intermittantly will give the check engine light. If you read old posts you will see that Balanger headers don't set the code. I have Balangers & I'm getting it. Hennessey says his rear sims stop it, but I have heard from others with them that they don't work either. 2001's can have the computer reflashed, I don't know about the success of that and since I have a 2000 it's not an option. Since it doesn't seem that anyone has found a reliable solution I decided to go another route.

I picked up an OBD II scanner from Auto Xray. This scanner not only reads the codes but will reset the light and clear the code from the computer. Just cleared it today and it only took about a minute. While this obviously doesn't get to the source of the problem, it does shut the light off and put the computer back into closed loop mode.

Anyone who is getting this code should do something about it. What alot of people don't realize is, when running with the light on you are hurting the motor. Vipers have a tendency to run rich at wot. They also have a tendency to build up carbon deposits on the pistons which cause hot spots and high rpm detonation. When your check engine light is on, at idle the car runs super rich to the point that you can smell it. This is just adding to deposits on your pistons. My 2000 just starting detonating at high rpms as did my 94. I will have to clean the piston tops to stop this. I would bet that most of you who have had and still have the light going on will experience this detonation. The cars are loud so it is not always easy to hear.

I purchased Auto Xrays EZ-Link Pro Pack scanner for $450.00. This will scan OBD I & OBD II cars. Got the better one because I also work on older cars. They also have the EZ-Link OBD II scanner for $300.00 which will only work on OBD II cars. They are located at WWW.AUTOXRAY.COM for anyone interested. Very simple and takes about a minute to scan and reset.

By the way the code it came up with was P135 O2 Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction, Bank 1, Sensor 1. I would love someone to come up with a permanent solution.

 

[TorQ Junkie]

According to recent posts, moving the o2 sensor **** closer to the heads should solve it. 8AVETTE has just done it himself on Belangers without removing them from the car.
I'll do the same when I can find a performance exhaust place to do it.
Frank

 

[Marc Lublin]

If I understand you correctly this isn't the problem & I don't understand why it would cause a problem. My 02 sensor wires are routed pretty close to the heads. The connector is about 3" from the heads. The wires were left at their original length. If I'm missing something, please let me know.

 

[treynor]

Marc,
On my Belangers headers, the O2 sensor was just below the collector, over 12" downstream of the exhaust outlet. On my CDI headers, the O2 sensor is on one of the header downpipes, only a few inches from the exhaust outlet. I have yet to get the 'check engine' warning from my CDI headers.

 

[Marc Lublin]

Ahh the ****, sorry I didn't know the terminology. Does this really stop the problem? Anyone out there that has done it and tested it please let me know. How does one go about relocating it. Don't want to mess up a $2,500 set of headers.
Thanks

 

[LTHL VPR]

At APEX Motorsports, we have not had a check engine light/problems on 2000's and 2001's with header and exhaust systems, even running w/o cats, after we implement our 2 solutions:

1) We modify every header prior to shipping or installation
2) We use our snake box to eliminate surging and the check engine light when you run without cats.

We install and ship out Belanger and APEX/CDI headers and Corsa cat-back systems. You can reach me at 408.562.1000 or via e-mail.
Thanks!

 

[Dion Fisher]

A couple layers of black tape over the light that have been cut to size works too-he-he, shameful I know

 

[JonB]

Do Not Be Confused........

The Belanger Headers have 'migrated' the O-2 **** placement a few inches over time to ensure the best heating of the sensor. Consider: PartsRack has headers built "to order" so that off-the-shelf headers do NOT have to be modified. BE CAREFUL! Any Header warranty could be invalidated if you modify it.

When an O-2 is moved into one tube, it gets ONE blast of heat in two RPM. When it sits in the collector, a V-10 gives it FIVE blasts of heat in just 2 RPM ! When you see engine-stand dyno runs or photos, its the COLLECTOR that glows the reddest!

PartsRack has a few MoPar Perf Computers left, that FIX this problem for the 2000 Viper. [they don't do much else, unless you have 5 other mods.] And we have sold "hundreds" of header/catback combos, not single-digits. The SIMS fix that Viper-Vette tuners have sold for years, [and now some give cutesy names to] MAY fix your problem. It is NOT a header-fix, but a CAT-LESS FIX. Iffy at best. A warranty-replacement to different O-2 sensors MIGHT fix the problem as well. Also Iffy.

The holy-grail on check engine lights may just be Marc's Scan-Tool hint! The same price as a PCM, and it does a lot of neast stuf as well !!

The-dual **** on CDI-[ARCHER] headers MAY work for a 2000, but not the next '01 ! [ I'll bet Ben T will verify where he/APEX first heard of the dual-**** 'fix': Blabbermouth JonB.]

One SOLUTION: SEMA ATTENDEES MUST BARAGE THE MOPAR BOOTH ! Demand the next-generation MPP-PCM/ECU. {now not due till Nov-Dec due to VGX workload.) Gen-3 owners will HAVE to have a PCM, and MoPar CANNOT ignore us now, or they will ignore us again in 2002-3. THANKFULLY, MPParts appears to be getting a motivational boost soon. Stay Tuned......

 

[Tom Friend]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JonB - PartsRack:
Do Not Be Confused........

When an O-2 is moved into one tube, it gets ONE blast of heat in a single RPM. When it sits in the collector, a V-10 gives it FIVE blasts of heat in just one RPM !

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am confused...

Since these are 4 stroke engines, wouldn't that be five blasts over <u>two revolutions?</u> ;-)

 

[DonMc]

yep i got the same problem on my 01 acr with tnt headers..the code you stated is a header caused code not to be confused with the code ya get if ya remove the cats...it has everything to do with the time it takes the o2 sensor to heat up (as indicated by voltage returned) against what the pcm is expecting...i have cleared my code several times and it holds until the car sets for more than 8 to 10 hours and cools all the way down, when ya crank it up it comes back..i have been using the vec-1 to control the rich mixture when the light is one and using the carefully cut black electrical tape fix!! btw, i dyno'ed it with the code on, cleared it, redynoed with no change in the vec setting and there was no change in hp or torque...man i wish mopar would hurry up with the new pcm!! has anyone tried the 01 pcm reflash fix on a 00...or are they too chicken like me!!

 

[JonB]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Friend:
Since these are 4 stroke engines, wouldn't that be five blasts over <u>two revolutions?</u> ;-)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

~~~~~~~:&lt;~ oops. TWO RPMS !


" Those of you who THINK you are perfect,
really pisss-off those of us who ARE! "

 

[Bill/APEX Motorsports]

Obviously this is a "heated" debate!

We've applied the same practice of moving the O2 sensors closer to the heads for almost 12 years of building high-performance Mustangs. We've proven this works for '00 and '01 Vipers, too, as we're apparently the only tuner not to have the dreaded Check Engine light after installing headers on these year Vipers.
Using engine monitoring software on the street and on our dyno, we verified that the O2s heat up much faster the closer we move them to the heads.
Because of our fixes, our customers have been able to drive thousands of Check Engine-free miles in their Vipers.
Don't worry about header warranty problems because of moving the O2 bungs closer to the heads, as we informed Belanger of our fix, and they will now be building them this way for us.
Our Snake Box does work on cat-less Vipers to eliminate the Check Engine light and surging. (The O2 heating issue and no-cats issue are two separate things for which we offer two simple fixes.)
While the ScanTool certainly clears the problem temporarily, it's inconvenient at best, but it does offer some other neat functions, as JonB says. I'd use it as a scanning tool rather than a code clearer. We've also tried the Mopar computer, and it lost horsepower and gained driveability problems almost every time. Knowing this, we searched for other solutions and found them.

 

[HouseofSpeed]

Hmmmm...well, I feel compelled to throw my two cents worth in on this subject...being the first to actually adapt a sim to a Viper last year. It is true that the sim is utilized as a dummy for the downstream (post cat) O2s in application. Typically necessary when removing the cats as the rear O2s are used in all OBD2 applications as strictly a catalyst efficiency monitor.

With that being said, if the code(s) that you are pulling pertain to an O2 heater circuit failure on the DOWNSTREAM sensors...it will not cause the car to run poorly or decrease gas mileage. That is strictly a "wear" code for the rear O2s. The rear O2s are not the arbiter when it comes to fuel trim..that is still the job of the pre cat sensors. Likewise, O2s do not play any role in WOT operation....the PCM goes to power enrichment and a pre-destined fuel and timing map based on load and throttle angle. The rear heater circuit failure will only appear after the magic number of key cycles and is nothing more than a self-test that the PCM performs on the heater circuit in the O2s...how quickly the O2s lite gives the PCM an idea of their condition.

I do not disagree that O2 placement is an issue on the header end...but do not be so quick to jump on the bandwagon and say that relocating the O2 takes care of the problem. Has it been tried on a 99? Or a 98? I have a 98 in the shop right now that is throwing the same codes and they are not supposed to, right???? I have taught, written about, and performed this type of diagnostic work for the last 12 years....and let me say that no two cars will react exactly the same to a modification or a simple repair. Adaptive strategy is just that....AI for your car. I will add that all of the cars I have installed sims on with our (HMS) exhaust have not had a subsequent rear O2 code. I have had a couple of mail outs that didn't work...whether that is an installer or material issue...I don't know. But I would say that on 2000 model cars we are at least 90 percent in terms of eradicating a rear O2 MIL after an exhaust upgrade.

Just as an FYI...a heated O2 does not have to rely on EGT for operation....that is why the OE moved away from one-wire O2s in the late 80s. So some of theory on O2 placement and subsequent exposure to the "heat" of the exhaust stream is strictly ingnorance on the subject. If you have access to a DRB, look at the O2 output with the key on...and then with the key on and the car running...remember that the O2 is a galvanic battery, it generates a voltage based on oxygen content in the exhaust tract...running or not.

 

[Marc Lublin]

Kyle,
From reading your response I am not certain which problem we are talking about. My car has headers and cats. The code I believe doesn't have to do with the rear sensors. I think it's the fronts which does change how rich the car runs. So just to clear things up for me, are you saying in this situation that relocating the front sensors is the only way to go right now and it may not even work?

 

[TorQ Junkie]

I'm with Marc. Is the failure to heat-up code just a misnomer or is sensor heat truly measured by the system. How close to the exhaust port is close enough?

 

[JonB]

Wayne.........et-al, In the interest of accuracy, I am literally typing a "live" discussion from Mr. Belenger, who does not have E-mail. Posted with his final review and permission:

'Belanger headers has been locating/experimenting with 02 sensors in advantageous locations for other vehicles, for over 10 years. JonB / PartsRack first alerted us to the occasional O2 sensor problems on Vipers in January '01, and Belanger has been pro-active since that time in finding solutions.

"The Only Tuner" with a solution is not quite fair or correct. We have several distributors with NO check-lights on '00-01 cars. We have numerous succesful installs ourselves with NO MIL lights. In fact, every car we have installed in 10 years is MIL-light free. Some required tweaking. In fairness, we are 'still testing' before we promise a total solution, because so many user variables can cause problems.

Additionally, we have sold fewer than 5 total sets of headers to APEX. We have located no O-2 bungs for APEX.....[I agree that our customers may have used APEX services for their professional install.] A "Wayne" something first called me only 3 weeks ago to say they were moving an O-2. We will not honor our warranty on user-altered headers, nor will anyone else. I do not want to get into this gossip, I just want to build great headers. '
END OF BELANGER COMMENTARY.

So, I repeat: CAUTION is needed when user-modifying ANY manufacturers part. I am 101% confident that Bill@Apex knows his business, but I still stand behind my posted caution as well.
I have confidently referred install business to Bill / APEX and would continue to do so......

 

[Marc Lublin]

I spoke with Wayne @ Apex and Louie at Balanger yesterday. I spent a good deal of time on the phone with both, and both guys were really knowledgeable. The bottom line seems to be this. If you are getting the code from your front sensors than moving the 02 sensor into one of the pipes closer to the head will stop the code from coming up. What we don't know yet (this coming from Balanger) is, moving the 02 sensor into the tube of just one cylinder will let the sensor do its job properly. The sensor now is only getting one puff of air at a time and not the exhaust from all 5 cylinders. Balanger offered to move my **** if I sent the headers back to him. I told him I was doing it myself, he thought that was great and informed me where to move it. I'm not all that worried about the warranty. I have never returned a used set of headers and these seem to be built very well so I don't expect any problems.

 

[LTHL VPR]

Marc-
Nice speaking with you yesterday as well, and I'm glad we could help. Since we are also an installation facility with an in-house dynojet and engine monitoring software, we actually test and chart the conditions of cars that undergo modifications. We have installed a number of sets of Belanger headers that our customers have brought to us, and we sold some directly to them as well.

We have tested the effects of moving the **** into one of the primaries. Thus far, the results have conclusively shown that the 02 Voltage readings did not change, and the 02 spectrum and frequency were the same. Again, we have not had 1 car through the check engine light for warmup failure on a 2000-1 once we have made this change. The lesson here is: theories don't always hold up under testing conditions.

Good Luck!
Regards,
Wayne

 

[8AVETTE]

I will say that after I installed the balenger headers on my 01 I did not get a light. About 400 miles later I got it. I new what it was but I took it to the dealer anyway. They said it was a heater code for the front 02 sensor. They had no fix, just a reset. Next day got the light again. Called john B. he told what Apex was doing. So I called Apex They were very helpful to me, They told to move the 02 closer to the heads. So I put the car on a lift at my shop, got two bungs from the auto parts and gently burned 2 holes in the tubes easiest to burn, migweld, and install the 02 sensors without removing the headers from the car about 10" from the heads. I got the distance from the stock headers.I unplugged the ECU for a minute to reset and started the car and no light. Sill no light after a week and many starts.

 

[HouseofSpeed]

I think that we are seeing two separate issues in the same system.....I have yet to have an UPSTREAM failure code on any of our exhaust upgrades...unless we have a mailout that I haven't received feedback from... It seems that the movement of the front O2 **** is alleviating that problem for those that have tried it, and that is good information. I would be cautious of making a drastic move, say away from the collector and into a single primary...not a good idea, what happens if that cylinder is not the mean for the other 4 on that side?

My original intent for the sims on the Viper was to eliminate the rear sensors from the picture when doing a catless or removable cat system. This is done on many other apps out there as well (C5, F-***, Mustang, etc) when an off-road intermediate pipe is used as a replacement. So, I can't say that the pre-cat sensors were ever an issue for me...simply because I have yet to see that failure code in the shop.

I will do some research and see what I can come up with....

 

[Sean Roe]

Gotta love them '97 and earlier Vipers.
Install headers, remove cats and get no check engine light because of it