Coming around again - 40mm rear calipers

Tom F&L GoR

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I have some 40mm non-ABS rear calipers available for $630 a pair plus your old cores. These calipers are re-sized OEM 36mm calipers that give you more rear braking for much better front to rear braking balance, helps prevent front tire flat spots, allows greater brake feel, and is 100% compatible with factory pads, uprights, brake lines, wheels, etc.

186two_pistons-med.jpg


The pistons are sleeved, similar to the process in automotive restoration projects. But how did 40mm get chosen? Because the Brembo piston seals only come in even numbers! (Rears are 36mm, Gen 1/2 fronts are 38mm and 42mm, SRT front is 44mm and 40mm.)

Some flattering comments from others on the board about these brakes are on this post. This link also has further links to past posts for even more information.

If you want a quick one-pager info sheet, PM or email me. If you want the 1Mb rebuild instructions to see what's inside the caliper, also let me know. The brakes are "not serviceable" according to Dodge so it's not described in the service manual. I can also guide you as to where to get parts you may need.

Powdercoat is also available for an additional $90 (yup, a price increase. Sorry.)

Chuck, when is it your turn? Got JackB to go for it. Even the Wizard is getting a pair for his car.
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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Do some research Tom. If they will work with Stoptech fronts I'll jump on them right now. The Stoptechs (front kit only) still seem to be a bit front-loaded. Whatyathink?
 
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Tom F&L GoR

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Chuck, I've done the math. The StopTech fronts are 36/40mm (vs. OEM 38/42mm) The smaller ST fronts shift the brake balance to the rear and were my performance target when I did the rear calipers in 38mm.

Brake balance:
OEM front + 38mm rear = StopTech fronts + 36mm rear

Piston area front to rear ratio:
OEM front & rear.........83.2%
OEM front + 38mm......81.7%
ST front +36mm..........81.6%

Of course, now am at 40mm rears, which at first was simply to see what happened, and in practice, is as big as you want to go before the wall gets too thin.

More math on brake balance:
StopTech fronts + 38mm = OEM front + 40mm rear

Piston area front to rear ratio:
OEM front & rear.........83.2%
OEM front + 38mm......81.7%
ST front +36mm..........81.6%
OEM front + 40mm......80.0%
ST front + 38mm........80.0%
ST front + 40mm........78.4%

Adding a 38mm rear caliper to your car should give the same balance as adding 40mm to a "stock" car. Adding a 40mm rear to your car is probably a little too much and you'd need an adjustable proportioning valve. But then you could tune it just they way you wanted.

I only make up 40mm sets now and have some ready. If you want a 38mm set, let me know and I'll have one made - next round would be mid-Feb. It would be my first "special order" and carry an appropriate premium...

PS I checked all the numbers, but ask questions if something doesn't seem right.
 

ViperRay

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Tom,
In regard to this subject, I have the OEM front calipers and the 40mm rears as you know.

I also removed the stock prop valve and feel the balance is right for me (I do not use stock wheels/tires or suspension so this may be a factor).

Anyway, I assume your recommendations account for the keeping of the stock prop valve?

I wonder how the 36 fronts with 40 rears and the stock prop valve in place would be.

If Chuck still has the stock valve, I might try it (carefully) first before changing to an adjustable one...just a thought.

Do you know what the % decrease in line pressure to the rears are with the stock prop valve?
 
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Tom F&L GoR

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Ray, the numbers are the simple math of piston areas and do not account for the decreased line pressure of the proportioning valve. I understand your comment about the ST fronts and 40 rears with the prop valve enabled; Chuck is a track rat and just might be brave enough to try it. But maybe not. :ooo:

Agreed that with the 40mm rears and prop valve disabled it's pretty close to ideal. But based on the step changes I had from stock to no prop valve to 38mm to 40mm, with sticky front tires and well practiced threshhold braking, ST+40mm is probably over the edge.

The OEM prop valve does this:
186bias2.gif


(Data courtesy of StopTech)
 

Achilles99

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It seems like the math calculations concerning the StopTech fronts paired with a new rear caliper assumes that the piston is the only difference.

I was given the impression (when I was researching StopTechs before my ABS days) that it's not only piston size but also the shape and surface area of the new brake pads that changes up bias.

Tom-Do you know what shape the StopTech front pads are compared to stock? I'm assuming that if they are significantly different from stock sizes, that piston sizes would only be part of the equation for front/rear bias.

As for the discussion about adjustable prop valves, I definitely think that is a good idea. I was occasionally locking up the rears on my cousin's GTS (w/ 40mm rear calipers) during a pretty fast autox (~90 mph). It was a great improvement over stock, but with a little fine tuning from a new adj. prop valve, I think it would be even better. I believe Mopar offers an adjustable prop valve for around $150. If I remember correctly, Ted Valaya makes a "kit" that includes the Mopar prop valve with custom brake tubing that will "bolt-in" by removing the stock valve/tubing.

So, for about $1,000 you could have a much better braking system w/ Tom's rear calipers and an adjustable prop valve.
 

ViperRay

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Excellent info Tom.

It would be interesting to know at about what line pressure range the stock front calipers will lock the front wheels in a typical track type situation (1200psi?).
Removing the prop valve alone would be tantamount to increasing the piston size of the rears...but I wonder by approx how much.

I believe the clamping force is proportional to line pressure and total piston area so that brake pad area has no bearing on the clamping force or torque.
A larger pad will merely spread the force over a larger area.
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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Ok, now that I've read this twenty times it's starting to sink in. If I can get 38mm rears to go with my Stoptech fronts I won't need an adjustable prop valve.

Tom, I replied to your pm.
 
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Tom F&L GoR

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Achilles99-
The other factor is temperature. Pad size and shape and rotor cooling will change heat transfer rates, which is what braking does. For the same braking effort, a larger pad would be cooler, last longer, and be more predictable than a small pad. So pad size affects bias when including effects of "usage rate." I also believe what Ray said is accurate - piston area and line pressure produce clamping force, then it's just a matter of how much are you spread it over. (It's the high heel example - Chuck weighs the same, but the force per area is much higher when he wears heels compared to loafers.)

AutoX and 40mm: before changing the rears I was pretty sloppy about (not) braking in a straight line. Braking while turning would get the car to swing around surprisingly easily. The trick was to make it not a surprise. Of course, an adjustable prop valve fine tunes it to driver's preference, which is always a way to go faster.

Ray-
When the fronts lock also depends on tire stickiness, track surface, how deep the snow is, etc, etc. Even so, I think they wouldn't lock until much higher pressures, only because I think the prop valve kicks in early in a high-g braking event. The OEMs use the valve as a goof-proof feature, so reducing the likelihood of rear lock up sooner (rather than at the ideal time) would be their preference. Geez, looking at the capacity of the rear caliper they must have been really worried about rear lock up!

Chuck-
replied to your PM. I think with ST fronts and 38mm rear, you will have enough adjustment via use or non-use of the OEM prop valve to find something you like.
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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Chuck wears heels? Are they f-me pumps of the 6 inch variety? How do you heel toe in those?

They make us skilled drivers wear them to even the playing field.

Don't think I didn't catch the "heels" comment Tom. Just trying to let this thread die a quick death.
 

slaughterj

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Tom, can you provide a succinct explanation of the role of the OEM proportioning valve, and ramifications of removal as well as replacement with an adjustable one, with regard to OEM braking systems as well as your replacement calipers?
 
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Tom F&L GoR

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Succinct... that's a vegetable, right? As long as it doesn’t mean short.

At low vehicle deceleration rates, forward weight transfer is insignificant. Rear wheel loads under these near-static conditions allow the rear brakes to provide half of the braking effort (in a hypothetical vehicle with 50% rear vehicle weight.) As brake line pressure and vehicle deceleration rates increase, weight transfer loads the front tires and unloads the rear tires. Concurrently, the tractive force of the rear wheels decreases and the rear brake calipers exert more clamping force on the brake rotor. Under extreme conditions, the rear wheels can cease to rotate and the vehicle would lose directional stability. The vehicle speed retardation of the sliding rear tires is less than that of the rolling front tires, so in addition to losing the yaw control, the rear of the vehicle will tend to travel at a greater speed than the front. Consequently, the vehicle will hit the tree rear end first.

In order to improve vehicle control, OEMs have designed, and the FMVSS regulations also require that the front tires “lock” first. Sliding front tires do not have steering capability, but a slight reduction in brake pedal application may restore it. Typical drivers can recover from temporary loss of steering (“pumping the brakes”), but are far less likely to recover from severe yaw (“spin out”) induced by rear wheel “lock up.” Also, while the loss of steering leads to hitting the tree front end first, the vast majority of safety features are designed for frontal impact (seatbelts, crush zones, air bags, collapsible steering columns, cushioned dashboard, etc.)

OEMs therefore use a “proportioning valve” which is actually a pressure-limiting valve. At low brake line pressure (gradual deceleration) all wheels are equally loaded and no pressure adjustments are made. As brake pedal application is increased, line pressure is increased and at a specific pressure (the “break point”) further pedal application does not increase rear brake line pressure at the same rate as the front. This effect limits the capability of the rear brakes, but only under heavy brake applications. The break point and the allowed rise in rear brake line pressure had been determined empirically and varied by application; a specific model vehicle for consumer use may have one “proportioning valve” and the same vehicle in taxi service may have another version that allows more rear brake line pressure. The taxi service would tend to have rear occupants, increasing rear weight, thereby allowing more rear brake work.

An adjustable proportioning valve either adjusts the break point pressure with a fixed rate of rear brake line pressure rise or may have a fixed break point and vary the rate of rear brake line pressure increase.

The Gen 1/2 Viper brake system was designed with four piston calipers in the front, single piston calipers in the rear, and the federally mandated proportioning valve. Since the clamping force on the rotor is proportional to the piston area, the front brakes have far greater capacity than the rears. Adding the proportioning valve ensured that the vehicle would safely hit the tree front end first. At the last VCA-PVO autocross challenge I asked Herb Helwig about the rear brakes, the brake bias and a 38mm or 40mm piston design and the reply was “we met the government standards.”

Opinion: Brembo redesigned the rear caliper from its previous application on a Renault Alliance, the Dodge Monaco, and Eagle Premier to accommodate a thicker rotor on the Viper. Very similar designs (using the same casting configuration of single piston and incorporated parking brake) are on the Lotus Elise and the Opel Speedster. Too bad they didn’t also consider a larger piston, and if needed, an appropriate proportioning valve strategy. If the undersized brake can be fixed up, sure would have been nice to have it that way from the factory.

Bob Woodhouse conducted brake testing that included front and rear brake line pressure measurements. His data led many to conclude that the rear brake line pressure reduction was unnecessary, since even with the proportioning valve disabled (not “removed”) the front wheels locked first. There are many posts about the procedure and precautions. Examination by several also concluded that the front and rear systems are not hydraulically linked when the proportioning valve is disabled, so that a failure in one system does not affect the other.

With the OEM brake calipers still on the car, there is no benefit to replacing the OEM proportioning valve with an adjustable valve. All valves are pressure-reducing devices, and the rear brake capacity is undersized to start. A first step by many to improve braking has been to simply remove the proportioning valve cup seal to eliminate an undesirable reduction in rear brake effectiveness.

StopTech pioneered a Viper brake system that improved the front-to-rear brake balance but reducing the size of the pistons in the front calipers. The reduced front clamping force allows higher brake pedal application overall, resulting in more rear brake work. Mathematically, the 38mm rear caliper conversion matches the front-to-rear balance by increasing the rear rather than decreasing the fronts. A subtle further difference is that the StopTech configuration, with smaller pistons, reduces total clamping force while the 38mm configuration increases clamping force given the same amount of pedal pressure. For equal braking, a StopTech car would need slightly higher pedal pressure than a 38mm car.

Empirically, even with the proportioning valve disabled, 38mm rear calipers still allow front wheel lockup. (I suspect StopTech owners, even with a disabled proportioning valve, would also experience front wheel lockup.) The rear brake caliper casting allowed for an even larger piston size of 40mm. The braking performance is further improved, and with the proportioning valve disabled, the front wheels still lock first, although now only very slightly before the rears. With the 40mm rear calipers, braking under corner entry can provide an oversteer sensation. Straight line braking under ideal conditions and sticky race tires could provide sufficient forward weight transfer that the greater rear brake capacity overpowers rear wheel loads. In this state of brake “tune,” I advise that disabling the OEM valve or using an adjustable proportioning valve is a driver preference issue. Having said that, I know many are very satisfied with a disabled proportioning valve. This level of performance improvement is exceptionally satisfying, but we should all recognize that it is several iterations away from the manufacturer’s original design.

In summary, the 40mm rear caliper conversion (with the OEM front caliper) provides near-ideal front to rear brake balance and the use or not of the OEM proportioning valve is a driver preference/tuning feature.

A rear brake larger than a 40mm rear caliper certainly will require an adjustable proportioning valve; an example is the 2001-02 ABS system that uses the same front caliper and a 43mm rear caliper. In this car, the ABS dynamically adjusts brake line pressure to the “oversized” rear brakes to prevent rear wheel lockup. Larger than a 43mm single piston or going to multiple piston calipers is greatly increasing the overcapacity. (See the thread in Performance Modifications if you have input on the benefits of large rear calipers.)

If you’re still awake, did I answer the question?
 

AG98RT10

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Wow, Tom, that was pretty great reading! I always wondered why the 40's work so well, and I thought I understood pretty much all about it until I read that.

Hope this is captured in a FAQ or something...]

FWIW, the only time I felt the rear start to come around at Viperdays was when I came out of turn 2 at VIR too hot and hit the brakes pretty hard - I was able to catch it pretty quickly. Definitely transferred a lot of weight while the car was off-balance and turning. Also running Kumhos all around, so that affected it too. (Note, I left the stock proportioning valve in.)
 

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