Ulysses
Enthusiast
There was a post a while back that had a picture of a dissected muffler from a Viper. Inside, the structure was such that it effectively produced a crossover, if I remember correctly.
Cross over Pipe for Gen 1 and 2 exhaust???
- Thread starter Ulysses
- Start date
red98GTS
Enthusiast
OK......let's get it right! Our cars do not sound like tractors! They sound like UPS trucks. Even with headers and cat-backs, they sound like louder UPS trucks! It's not the crossover or lack thereof. Nature of the beast. Actually, I kinda like it now with headers and 3" system. Ha! Just kiddin....just kiddin.
pete the ex glass guy (and hot rodder)
For cars that DO NOT sound like UPS trucks:
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/5567
pete the ex glass guy (and hot rodder)
For cars that DO NOT sound like UPS trucks:
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/5567
Dixter
Enthusiast
There's quite a few of us that run with cross over exhaust...
That's all my car has... just take the rear muffler out and
install new pipes out the back with a cross over...
Sounds very nice...
That's all my car has... just take the rear muffler out and
install new pipes out the back with a cross over...
Sounds very nice...
joe117
Enthusiast
I was thinking about a crossover pipe myself. I think the reason we don't have one, where it would normally be, just after the headers, is that there isn't room for one. A crossover at this point will actually give better performance than single tubes. As I remember it, the reason is that only one cylinder fires at a time, we would hope, and the crossover gives the whole exhaust system to each cylinder as they fire, one after another. I remember many high performance cars with crossovers. If they are not better why are they there?
Ron
Enthusiast
<FONT face="Comic Sans MS">The rear muffler is in fact a crossover, though it's too far back to matter. An H-pipe rear muffler eliminator doesn't change things much as compared to a non-H eliminator other than to decrease drone a bit and slow the exhaust velocity somewhat due to turbulence.
As to whether a real crossover up near the manifolds would change anything I do not know, but my understanding the unique sound has more to do with the engine's uneven firing pulses than any crossover issues. As I vaguely remember a 90 degree V is fine for a V-8 but 60 degrees would have been better for a V-10, assuming it would fit.</FONT f>
As to whether a real crossover up near the manifolds would change anything I do not know, but my understanding the unique sound has more to do with the engine's uneven firing pulses than any crossover issues. As I vaguely remember a 90 degree V is fine for a V-8 but 60 degrees would have been better for a V-10, assuming it would fit.</FONT f>
I think the 2003 crossover is near the back of the car and then the pipes go forward to the sidepipe openings. Having mufflers after the crossover may impact the sound more than having it so close to the end of the pipes in a straight tube like those of us with home made "H" pipes have.
72 degrees is the angle for a V-10. The new Porsche Carrera V-10 is about that angle.
Viper Magazine reported several years ago that the Viper engine didn't show hp gains when bench tested with an exhaust crossover so perhaps the scavage effect with the odd fire is a lot different than a typical V-8
72 degrees is the angle for a V-10. The new Porsche Carrera V-10 is about that angle.
Viper Magazine reported several years ago that the Viper engine didn't show hp gains when bench tested with an exhaust crossover so perhaps the scavage effect with the odd fire is a lot different than a typical V-8
joe117
Enthusiast
The thing about odd fire and the angle between the banks is that the two cylinders on opposite sides almost always use a common rod bearing axis on the crank. So, in a 90 degree engine, those two cylinders will come to the top of their stroke 90 degrees from each other. If you work out the possible 4 stroke firing sequence, you find certain combinations don't come out even. A 90 degree V8 works, a 60 degree V6 works, but a 90 degree V6 is one that won't work, a Harley twin is another. In the 70s, GM made an engine, the 3.8 V6 that was a V6 version of a small block 90 degree V8. It was odd fire and it shook. After a few years they did a little trick, they slightly offset the axis of the rod pairs on the crank. This helped a little but it still wasn't perfect. The thing is that by the time you get up to 10 cylinders the odd fire offset is probably not enough to cause noticeable vibrations. The more cylinders you have firing on each revolution, five in our case, the less room there is for degrees of distance between any two. I haven't ever worked out what a 90 degree V10 offset would be. I'll bet someone could do this for all of the combinations of angles and cylinder counts and come up with a nice spreadsheet that we could all look at and learn something.
Kurt 97 GTS
Enthusiast
Hey Dixter,
BAKNBLK95RT does not even have a rear muffler, he is in that crapy scratched up black 95
D,
Come on, say it with me - GTS, GTS!!
BAKNBLK95RT does not even have a rear muffler, he is in that crapy scratched up black 95
D,
Come on, say it with me - GTS, GTS!!
Dixter
Enthusiast
BakNBlk95RT.... Sorry when I replied, I had forgotten that
you have a RT... I was talking about the modification to
the GTS exhaust....
Kurt... don't know what your exhaust is like, I wont' be able
to make the meeting this weekend, you guys have a good time.
If you have questions about the muffler delete with the
new pipes and cross member, ask Kingman... he should know the
person who's been doing the mods for us... if not Tony knows
for sure.
Later
you have a RT... I was talking about the modification to
the GTS exhaust....
Kurt... don't know what your exhaust is like, I wont' be able
to make the meeting this weekend, you guys have a good time.
If you have questions about the muffler delete with the
new pipes and cross member, ask Kingman... he should know the
person who's been doing the mods for us... if not Tony knows
for sure.
Later
Robert1994
Enthusiast
I think the new Car & Driver mentions that the SRT (do I get
tossed of for using that word ?) reverts to the classic side-
pipes with a crossover that eliminates the UPS truck sound.
With side exhaust the cross over can't be very far back, and
would seem to be a serious heat problem if it passes under the
passenger area. I don't have that problem anyway, my car seems to have more of a Fed Ex sound .
tossed of for using that word ?) reverts to the classic side-
pipes with a crossover that eliminates the UPS truck sound.
With side exhaust the cross over can't be very far back, and
would seem to be a serious heat problem if it passes under the
passenger area. I don't have that problem anyway, my car seems to have more of a Fed Ex sound .
Kurt 97 GTS
Enthusiast
BAKNBLK95RT,
Ha Ha No, I can't take my top off anymore - but the ladies in the co-pilot seat can!!
See ya Saturday!!!
Ha Ha No, I can't take my top off anymore - but the ladies in the co-pilot seat can!!
DEVILDOG
VCA Member North TX
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kurt Red 94 RT10:
BAKNBLK95RT,
Ha Ha No, I can't take my top off anymore - but the ladies in the co-pilot seat can!!
See ya Saturday!!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
YEAH BABY!!!
BAKNBLK95RT,
Ha Ha No, I can't take my top off anymore - but the ladies in the co-pilot seat can!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Jay Herbert
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BAKNBLK95RT:
The current Gen I, II exhaust system contains no cross over pipe. That is why our cars sound like tractors. It is like having two import 5 cylinder engines one on each side. At least that is how I understand it. The new Viper has a cross over pipe, that cures the bad exhaust note. Well I was wondering has any body tried putting a cross over pipe on the current Vipers??? Sean Roe, Jon B etc???? Wouldn't that take care of the problem on our current cars as well????
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The answer to this question is yes (to the GEN I part). He even posted pictures.... I searched my old notes, and it was posted around May 9,2000 in the old forum
. It was a work of art.... snaked between the two sides of a Gen I RT/10, just after the exhaust manifold, before the CATS. The fellow who did it said it did improve the sound..... but boy it made the after market Viper headers look "simple" though.... It was hard to believe it did not touch anything, but he claimed it was "rattle free".
The current Gen I, II exhaust system contains no cross over pipe. That is why our cars sound like tractors. It is like having two import 5 cylinder engines one on each side. At least that is how I understand it. The new Viper has a cross over pipe, that cures the bad exhaust note. Well I was wondering has any body tried putting a cross over pipe on the current Vipers??? Sean Roe, Jon B etc???? Wouldn't that take care of the problem on our current cars as well????
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The answer to this question is yes (to the GEN I part). He even posted pictures.... I searched my old notes, and it was posted around May 9,2000 in the old forum
Jay, is this what you were thinking of? It's a piece.... of work.
The whole benefit of a balance pipe it to tie the 2 banks together by the header collector, in as short a distance as possible. That's why the progression was as Balance tube became a shorter "H" pipe that became a Dr. Gas "X" pipe. The "X" pipe, put by the header collector. took out the gap distance an "H" pipe had and maxed the scavage effect.
While it connected by the collectors, This piece above is far, far too long to benefit scavage. The air buffer is just too great. I would question what it could do for sound, too
There's just not room to get an "X" pipe just after the collector in the Viper.
As looks go, there's some roadworker in TX with a nice looking "X" pipe in place of the rear muffler.
You must be registered for see images
The whole benefit of a balance pipe it to tie the 2 banks together by the header collector, in as short a distance as possible. That's why the progression was as Balance tube became a shorter "H" pipe that became a Dr. Gas "X" pipe. The "X" pipe, put by the header collector. took out the gap distance an "H" pipe had and maxed the scavage effect.
While it connected by the collectors, This piece above is far, far too long to benefit scavage. The air buffer is just too great. I would question what it could do for sound, too
There's just not room to get an "X" pipe just after the collector in the Viper.
As looks go, there's some roadworker in TX with a nice looking "X" pipe in place of the rear muffler.
You must be registered for see images
