Customer Issue... am I out of line?

[Viper Specialty]

Hey everyone,

I am looking for some uninvolved customer perspective. As everyone knows, I have just about zero customer complaints out there, as I always make sure that a customer ends up with a quality and problem-free end product.

I am in the middle of a situation that is just plain ridiculous, and I would like some feedback on it.


Long story short, back in 2009-2010 an international customer paid for a BIG Gen-2 short-block w/options [upgrade charge, no core included], ATI damper, and whatever the UPS calculator figured for shipping back them. Grand total, 21.5K, paid by wire. We came to an agreeable design, and most parts were ordered. The customer then decided to grow the project into a full build, shipping the car here, and the project was halted at the time waiting for the car. The project then took a new direction with a new car to be supplied by us as the "core", and also the engine core, and we started to acquire Gen-2 engine parts to build a long-block and find an engine-less Gen-2. The customer came into town, met with us, and at that time decided he wanted to go with a Gen-4 converted Gen-2 after seeing the TT Gen-4 we were working on, this was 2011. We agreed to absorb the change from Gen-2 based to Gen-4 based due to the scope of the build size. Project changed again to an overseas supplied GTS-R core car, and the car would be sent end of season-ish. We started ordering a few parts, namely new Gen-4 design pistons for the new head design. Project halted again and shelved due to money issues/buying properties in late 2011-ish/early 2012-ish.

Fast forward to early 2013. Customer starts to become even more erratic, and is in deep with some of the old GTS-R race guys over in Europe, and wants the engine built as per the original order, but with the Gen-4 type pistons. I get the feeling something is going on with this project I am not being told. We find out that the project has been given to some other shop, and the completed short block will go to them, no huge rush. That's fine, no big deal.

Fast forward to two weeks ago. I write the invoice for the original ordered Short Block but at 2012/2013 pricing [less], add in the core block and crank [3K], delete the ATI damper [0.5K], add in some gaskets he asked for, crating, shipping [0.75K Total], and since the project was not continued, I added in the original set of custom pistons that were specially made for him, which was about 1.5K extra plus about 650 for coatings. Grand total, 24.3K, $2800 spread. That's 2800 extra for half a gasket set, an extra set of pistons, a core block and crank, and a crate fee over the original Sales Order.

Now, the customer is pissed... why am I paying for a second set of pistons, why, why, why.


Am I in the wrong here? I stored this guys parts for damn near three years. I absorbed a bunch of Gen-2 and other parts when he changed his mind countless times. I never charged him for the heavy-wall sleeve upgrade on the core block. I never charged him to ship that block across the country TWICE. I gave him reduced 2012 price structure... and all I am asking for is that he pay for the pistons that are sitting on the shelf because I cannot absorb them into a larger project anymore as there is no continuation. He would of course get this second set of pistons with the short block.

Opinions?

 

[BlackSnake99]

You have to ask yourself if it is worth eating the cost of the pistons to be rid of this guy and the headache he is causing. Sounds like it might be.

 

[Blainne]

I'd stick with FULL PAYMENT up front all parts in the future. Even close friends can turn P r i c k (Really P r i ck is bleeped out?? OMG not that P WORD!!!!) when money is involved. No matter how good the shop is.. there will always be people like this out there. Nothing is more CHEAP than a Rich person. Its sad. Like a disease.

 

[vpower01]

I cant understand how he could expect you to take back custom pistons?
He ordered them, if he thinks its easy to sell them, he can find someone to buy them right.

I can see if he stopped the order on the gen 2 pistons... but it seems they were already completed?
Maybe im missing something because when he wanted to go gen4, I would have said " what are we going to do with the gen2 pistons?"
So this conversation would have taken place at least a year before and he shouldn't be surprised.
I dont get it.

 

[Viper Specialty]

I can see if he stopped the order on the gen 2 pistons... but it seems they were already completed?

Maybe im missing something because when he wanted to go gen4, I would have said " what are we going to do with the gen2 pistons?"
So this conversation would have taken place at least a year before and he shouldn't be surprised.
I dont get it.

When he came to visit us, he held those Gen-2 pistons in his hands before agreeing we go with a Gen-4 type conversion, and I explained to him in person that we would need to change the piston design to accommodate, but we would absorb the cost because of the size of the project he was then planning on building, which was nearing 100K.

IMO, when you void the agreement to build the car, you also void the perks associated with building the car. Its like offering to buy a house if they add in a pool, and then bailing on the purchase and expecting them to still give you a pool.

 

[hiss highness]

document everything religiously as part of your due diligence, I was in business for 12 years and was immaculate on everything until I got that one "****" customer about 2 years in, after that I realized there were a and b customers the c and d were not worth it, the customer is not always right and customer service should imply some service from the customer as well, sluff off the losers, your core customers are bread and butter, those that know u will continue to be repeat customers and your best advertising, some one off European princess is not worth the money or time, although money is very important in business this princess would be a pain no matter what u do, cut em loose and get some sleep

 

[brentsGTS]

Sounds like you were more than fair from the start. That's a lot of hassel on your end due to him changing his mind constantly. sure build plans change but one must realize they aren't your only customer.

 

[gb66gth]

It sounds like you're not going to get another crack at this high maintenance guy's business, so you may as well get satisfaction out of the deal.

Your core customers know you're a good guy and you service us well.

 

[LifeIsGood]

Let me preface this by stating that I've never done any business with Viper Specialty Performance. You aren't looking at this wrong at all. Customers can't expect reduced costs and perks when they downsize the overall project by 75%. We should know you won't have the ability to absorb those types of costs once we dramatically change our minds.

 

[johniew398]

I don't think you are wrong. I think he should pay.

 

[ohio_viper]

I'd stick to your guns Dan. Sounds like this customer has brought on his own problems, you didn't make them.

 

[Sybil TF]

Hey everyone,




Am I in the wrong here?

Opinions?

No! People are nuts!!!! I can't stand customers like this!

 

[99 R/T 10]

I don't think you are wrong. I think he should pay.

Although not wrong, to make a large customer happy, maybe offer to split the cost?

 

[Viper Specialty]

Although not wrong, to make a large customer happy, maybe offer to split the cost?

Normally I would agree with you, but I am barely making money even by charging him for these when I factor in all of the lost time and other things I never charged him for. I think he will be a "problem" customer no matter what I do or say... so whats the point of pointlessly losing more money.

 

[mad0953]

That's quite a quandry. It's clear to me. If a customer orders a special part, process, etc. that you can't readily sell to someone else then the customer pays for it.

 

[hiss highness]

don't forget that the reason you are in business is to make money, friends should come to you not for deals, they should come to you for quality and service, no deals for cash garbage

 

[Mad Max]

You are being more than fair!!

 

[FrankBarba]

I learned this awhile back when i had a customer like this. Document everything. Go even further and make up a Change of Order form. Once the form is filled out, and your customer signs off on this
it's a no brainer, you could of course then ask for payment of some sort maybe another deposit.

 

[Tail lights]

Hey Dan, I think at this point in your career you don't have to kiss every last customers ass, your reputation ,quality of work, and dedication are well known . don't give into that cheap ****. by the way whats up with those custom pistons? What motor and what heads what compression ratio?

 

[ViperTony]

I learned this awhile back when i had a customer like this. Document everything. Go even further and make up a Change of Order form. Once the form is filled out, and your customer signs off on this
it's a no brainer, you could of course then ask for payment of some sort maybe another deposit.

This is what I do. Although it's too late for Dan's situation. In the end, people **** and can't be trusted. For every honest person out there, there's probably 3-4 dishonest, lying, stealing turds stuck to the underwear of society. I've done small business with Dan (wish I could do big builds with him!) and he's as upfront and credible as they come. I hate to see Dan being taken advantage of here. Parts is one thing but he puts in a tremendous amount of time educating his clients on all aspect of the project not to mention the time he spends engineering/researching. I know this situation is a giant time **** for you Dan but I say stick to your guns and don't let this guy get away with anything.

 

[99 R/T 10]

This is what I do. Although it's too late for Dan's situation. In the end, people **** and can't be trusted. For every honest person out there, there's probably 3-4 dishonest, lying, stealing turds stuck to the underwear of society. I've done small business with Dan (wish I could do big builds with him!) and he's as upfront and credible as they come. I hate to see Dan being taken advantage of here. Parts is one thing but he puts in a tremendous amount of time educating his clients on all aspect of the project not to mention the time he spends engineering/researching. I know this situation is a giant time **** for you Dan but I say stick to your guns and don't let this guy get away with anything.

I hate t say it, but you are spot on Tony. Sad commentary of our society, but it is what it is.

 

[troublemaker]

This is a lose/lose situation. All you can do now is cut your losses, forget about profits, learn from it and be done with this guy. Think of all the things you will do differently after dealing with this type of customer and make sure they won't happen again. A little bad press isn't going to hurt your business , I know it hasn't changed my mind at all about letting you build my motor.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Thanks for all of the responses guys, I figure I should update this as well.

In response to a few Change Order comments, our customers generally receive a Sales Order e-mailed to them at any point they request or any time a substantial change is made along the way on a project, as this customer did multiple times. The problem was not with the SO, it was the fact that the second [original unused] piston set was at one point not going to be on it, and then when it was added back on at the end as a change-order based on a non-continuation "perk deletion", the change was not agreeable to the customer at that point. What the customer did not understand was that the only reason it was not on the SO all along was that we made an agreement that I would absorb it into a larger project. When the customer voided the larger project, he also voided my agreement to absorb it.

Building a car is a very fluid situation, which is one of the reasons we specifically refuse to "concrete quote" non-standard, non-package jobs in advance as anything more than a true estimate based on what we expect, but with the understanding that we do not know what we will find until we have the car in hand and apart- and parts in hand for that matter. This market is very sketchy with regard to car quality or part quality and availability, near half the time what you order is not what you get, it shows up damaged and then ends up out of stock, or a car shows up with some buried history we uncover that causes everyone to go back to the drawing board in the middle of a build. And then... there are the customer requested changes to top off that inherent mess.

However, this problem has since been solved. The customer admitted to misreading my first response, and was taking the entire chain of events out of context thinking that the engine had the original pistons installed in it, but was being charged for the Gen-4 head compatible version which he had actually wanted installed in the engine. The reverse is the actual case; the Gen-4 pistons are in it, and the originals are in a box as requested. I have no idea how he came to this conclusion or tied other items into the responses, but I suppose this explains why he was seemingly jumping all over the place and making no sense. In any case, its case closed and he is paying the bill without complaint at this point.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Hey Dan, I think at this point in your career you don't have to kiss every last customers ass, your reputation ,quality of work, and dedication are well known . don't give into that cheap ****. by the way whats up with those custom pistons? What motor and what heads what compression ratio?

At this point he is taking the pistons, but that could theoretically change if I offered.

They are loaded CP customs. 9:1 Gen-2 if I recall, 4.030 bore, 6.123 Rod, stock stroke, .990 Pin, accumulator groove, anti-detonation grooves, lateral gas points, pin oiling, ceramic top and coated skirts. They need to run specific gaskets for best performance as they are a proud-deck design, but we could supply without a problem.

Basically, they are drop-in for a 4.030 bore Gen-2 using Eagle rods [or custom] with a Pin End Overhone to .991, ideally with a block deck altered to 9.470 and running Stopper gaskets or no deck change running a custom MLS.

For a reasonable max-effort Gen-2, you would have the block sleeved with Gen-4 sleeves and only bore/hone to 4.030 making them thicker than normal, run a Carrillo Custom rod in the correct length, decked at 9.470, studded with Stopper gaskets.

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[LifeIsGood]

...They are loaded CP customs. 9:1 Gen-2 if I recall, 4.030 bore, 6.123 Rod, stock stroke, .990 Pin, accumulator groove, anti-detonation grooves, lateral gas points, pin oiling, ceramic top and coated skirts. They need to run specific gaskets for best performance as they are a proud-deck design, but we could supply without a problem.

Basically, they are drop-in for a 4.030 bore Gen-2 using Eagle rods [or custom] with a Pin End Overhone to .991, ideally with a block deck altered to 9.470 and running Stopper gaskets or no deck change running a custom MLS.

For a reasonable max-effort Gen-2, you would have the block sleeved with Gen-4 sleeves and only bore/hone to 4.030 making them thicker than normal, run a Carrillo Custom rod in the correct length, decked at 9.470, studded with Stopper gaskets.

What the hell did he just say? Don't waste your time trying to splain it to me...I ain't very smart.

 

[CEJ]

What the hell did he just say? Don't waste your time trying to splain it to me...I ain't very smart.

He said that the new pistons are polished.

 

[ViperSmith]

Good to hear it is resolved.

We fire problem customers :-D

But for software, it comes down to those that **** up our support costs by emailing us twice a day for two weeks over every little question - because they can't follow some on screen help!

 

[datruodb]

Being a business owner as well, we both know "That's the cost of doing business". For every ******* like that you get countless of transactions that go flawless. Best to cut bait with this guy, and discount whatever parts you have left. This way you can liquidate the money sitting on the shelf for something else. Being in whatever business we are all in we can start to tell a high maint customer from a pain in the ass, even though there is little distinction between the two. Once you can tell the difference, it's good to start covering all of your bases.

I might be placing an order with you soon, so I expect a huge discount for the priceless information =)

 

[eucharistos]

What the hell did he just say? Don't waste your time trying to splain it to me...I ain't very smart.

or he said they make the viper go vvrrrroooommm vvrrrrooooommm

 

[Vipuronr]

Hi Dan, let me start by saying this situation *****! I worked in international, mostly Asia and Europe and getting payment can be incredibly frustrating. I know, as a small business cash flow is critical, but you have to ask yourself is it better to get most of the money now or wait countless months for the whole thing with the distinct possibility you may get none! Collecting money through the US courts is hard enough but to try to take the legal route outside the US is near impossible and very costly.

My opinion is take what you can get from the guy and write off the rest on your taxes. If he's arguing with you over the pistons, he may also be the type to try to stiff you for all of it.

Good luck!