Did someone say "Gen4 transmission into a Gen2" ??

[GTS Dean]

Update:
On the T-56, the shaft that the tone ring (speed sensor) sets on is splined just like the transmission output shaft, same shaft, just splined again to the front. The inside of the ring itself is splined/grooved just like the driveshaft yoke. The 6060 does not have the splines for the tone ring to sit on....the shaft in that location is smooth and a smaller diameter so that it cannot be splined to work.

Any way to machine an adapter sleeve to slip inside the Gen 2 tone ring? It could be cut longer, drilled and tapped for a couple of hex set screws. Heck, maybe just a custom tone ring made-to-order?

I'm guessing the main reason for the shorter drive shaft in the Gen3/4 cars is a bigger diff case?

 

[Bobpantax]

Bob,
It's good to here you have a big change to the better. The swap into a gen2 is a little different than to a gen3.....a few issues to work around. Right now, I'm trying to figure out the best for the $$$ way to address these issues. In regards to the "shift mechanism", is that just a shifter or something more ? The shifter location on the 6060 is slightly different and while it may fit fine in a gen3, unless the new shifter is placed in exactly the same location an aftermarket may present a problem, may not. Hopefully not but I will test it first with the stock shifter.

It is the mechanism which attaches to the tranny and on which the shift lever/knob is attached. I do use an MGW shift knob but the improvement I describe above is from the performance shifter mechanism not just the knob. As to fit in a Gen II, I am clueless.

 

[1TONY1]

Any way to machine an adapter sleeve to slip inside the Gen 2 tone ring? It could be cut longer, drilled and tapped for a couple of hex set screws. Heck, maybe just a custom tone ring made-to-order?

I'm guessing the main reason for the shorter drive shaft in the Gen3/4 cars is a bigger diff case?

Looking at a few of those options...leaning toward the bushing/sleeve direction. I don't think a different tone ring would help because it still has to go over the output shaft....and then, the OD matters to the sensor.

A gen2 drive shaft is actually shorter...at least shorter than a gen4 (about 2.5") I haven't measured a gen3 but it should be as long as a gen4 if not longer.

 

[1TONY1]

It is the mechanism which attaches to the tranny and on which the shift lever/knob is attached. I do use an MGW shift knob but the improvement I describe above is from the performance shifter mechanism not just the knob. As to fit in a Gen II, I am clueless.

Did you have any seat time with the stock shifter before the Woodhouse shifter to compare the two ? I have tried several different shifters in my gen2 and haven't really seen an improvement over a stock shifter with a short shaft. One plusthough, IMO is having a shifter with stops.....might be easier on the transmission internals.

 

[Bobpantax]

Did you have any seat time with the stock shifter before the Woodhouse shifter to compare the two ? I have tried several different shifters in my gen2 and haven't really seen an improvement over a stock shifter with a short shaft. One plusthough, IMO is having a shifter with stops.....might be easier on the transmission internals.

Yes. But it was a modified stock shifter with somewhat stiffer springs. I also had an SVS shifter on my former Gen II. The MGW/Woodhouse performance shifter is at a whole different level. I have never felt this level of certainty when shifting a Viper whther it be on a road course or in a straight line. It is an inexpensive but very effective mod.

 

[V10TT]

According to John Donato the Truck T56 version uses 9310 alloy (same as G-force), and thicker gear teeth (1 to 4 gears) together with different pitch angle in the gears. It also uses a one piece cluster shaft instead of the two piece found in the GTS. He adds couple of different treatments to the gears, and is what he uses for high HP Vipers.
I wonder if the 6060 is stronger or weaker than the T56 truck version..

 

[99 R/T 10]

According to John Donato the Truck T56 version uses 9310 alloy (same as G-force), and thicker gear teeth (1 to 4 gears) together with different pitch angle in the gears. It also uses a one piece cluster shaft instead of the two piece found in the GTS. He adds couple of different treatments to the gears, and is what he uses for high HP Vipers.
I wonder if the 6060 is stronger or weaker than the T56 truck version..

So the truck version of the T-56 would make for a great racing trans? I thought they were all the same................

 

[1TONY1]

According to John Donato the Truck T56 version uses 9310 alloy (same as G-force), and thicker gear teeth (1 to 4 gears) together with different pitch angle in the gears. It also uses a one piece cluster shaft instead of the two piece found in the GTS. He adds couple of different treatments to the gears, and is what he uses for high HP Vipers.
I wonder if the 6060 is stronger or weaker than the T56 truck version..

Good question, I don't know about the 9310 being in the truck transmission though. This article talks about some of the changes: High Performance Manual Transmission - OE Transmission - Car Craft Magazine

My guess, being that the truck transmission is five years old is that this one would have better updates.

Another note I haven't mentioned, the gen4 transmission is $300+ cheaper than a gen2/3 transmission from Dodge. I don't know the cost of a truck transmission.

 

[99 R/T 10]

I am guessing the truck transmission would have to be designed to handle a 5000lbs truck with all that power, so it makes sense it would have to be beefier. Anybody know for sure?

 

[GTS Dean]

A gen2 drive shaft is actually shorter...at least shorter than a gen4 (about 2.5") I haven't measured a gen3 but it should be as long as a gen4 if not longer.

Yes, I guess so. The wheelbase on the SRT is longer than the Gen1/2 isn't it?

 

[RTTTTed]

But the trucks have skinny tires.

Ted

 

[V10TT]

That is what John told me. Actually when he told me that it uses the 9310 alloy, I decided to go with it instead of the G-force. I had no luck with my RPM treated stock trany, so I was not going to try stock gears again.
Here is a link from a previous discussion
http://forums.viperclub.org/rt-10-gts-discussions/616403-tremec-6060-gen-ii-2.html

Post number 35, and #52

 

[V10TT]

I don't think the Donato Viper truck trany is the same as the one mentioned in the article. The article mentions the Magnum trany has a larger input shaft and bearing, and my Donat trans uses the same diameter input shaft and bearing (9310 input shaft).

I've sent him a link of this topic, so hopefully he will come in and clarify it for us.

Good question, I don't know about the 9310 being in the truck transmission though. This article talks about some of the changes: High Performance Manual Transmission - OE Transmission - Car Craft Magazine

My guess, being that the truck transmission is five years old is that this one would have better updates.

Another note I haven't mentioned, the gen4 transmission is $300+ cheaper than a gen2/3 transmission from Dodge. I don't know the cost of a truck transmission.

 

[1TONY1]

That is what John told me. Actually when he told me that it uses the 9310 alloy, I decided to go with it instead of the G-force. I had no luck with my RPM treated stock trany, so I was not going to try stock gears again.
Here is a link from a previous discussion
http://forums.viperclub.org/rt-10-gts-discussions/616403-tremec-6060-gen-ii-2.html

Post number 35, and #52

I just sent an e-mail to the engineer that builds these about the gear material and his opinion.
I can't speak about a Donato modified truck T56 but as far as the stock truck vs the 6060/T56 Magnum ...... If the truck transmission was better then it would seem that Dodge, Chevy on the new Z06 and ZR1, Cadillac CTSV and maybe the GT40 would have chosen it instead of the 6060. Especially since it was already around.....why even build another one ?
In the other post you linked to, the price of $4500 was mentioned for an older T56........that is list price. With a little shopping the 6060 can be had for just under $3000 and the regular T56 is about $350 higher

 

[V10TT]

Six-Speed Manual Tremec T56 (MM6/M12) Car Transmission

 

[1TONY1]

For the engineer (he is from where all the T56's are built) I had two questions:
1. What are the differences in gear material and general strength between the truck T56 and the 6060.
2. Why the change BACK to ATF for lubricant (which I didn't agree with)

Here is his reply below. Please note, I am not and cannot make any distinction between a Donato or G-Force built anything. This is stock vs stock. Which would be stronger after a build is the users discretion.



In 04 the Viper used the same gearing as the SRTRam10. This would be the strongest ViperT56. There was 9310 material used for several gears. The TR6060 also uses 9310 material in selected gears AND increases the face width. The net is the TR6060 Viper is the strongest we have made.

The T56 in general is sensitive to oil type. Vipers always had the carbon particle blocker materials so they were less sensitive. Other model T56s used a paper lining that could be damaged with some synthetics. This is why a blanket ATF T56 requirement. Some synthetic ATFs are ok but we cannot test all oils. Viper T56 used a synthetic gear oil from approx. ’96 on. Gear oils are high in sulfur content .This was not a problem with the carbon materials. When the TR6060 came in ‘08, the blocker material changed to a sintered bronze. The gear oil CANNOT be used with these. ATF is the only oil spec for the new units.

 

[1TONY1]

Took the powerglide out and test fitted the 6060 today.
Some good news: The stock driveshaft will work fine with a yoke change. The crossmember will work but could use a little more slot towards the rear. Shifter looked fine....sure does feel good moving through the gears....nice short throw even with the stock shifter.

 

[Tiago]

thats good news

 

[Vic]

Thanks for your pioneering efforts, Tony!
Looks like another good mod for my GTS

 

[V10TT]

Tony, I sent a copy of this e-mail to John Donato to get his response, below is what he replied to me by e-mail:

Julio,

Thanks for the info.
This info is correct from all of the data I have been able to get from SRT. With the increased gear face width the Viper TR6060 is stronger than the T-56 with 9310 gears.
The one issue not mentioned is the possible failure of the 2nd gear blocker ring in the TR6060 if the transmission is speed shifted with the rear wheels spinning. This warning, I am told, is written in the factory owners manual in both the Viper and Challenger. I am trying to locate an owner manual to see the exact wording.
Ford is having some warranty issues from this 2nd gear issue in the Cobra Mustang.

John

For the engineer (he is from where all the T56's are built) I had two questions:
1. What are the differences in gear material and general strength between the truck T56 and the 6060.
2. Why the change BACK to ATF for lubricant (which I didn't agree with)

Here is his reply below. Please note, I am not and cannot make any distinction between a Donato or G-Force built anything. This is stock vs stock. Which would be stronger after a build is the users discretion.



In 04 the Viper used the same gearing as the SRTRam10. This would be the strongest ViperT56. There was 9310 material used for several gears. The TR6060 also uses 9310 material in selected gears AND increases the face width. The net is the TR6060 Viper is the strongest we have made.

The T56 in general is sensitive to oil type. Vipers always had the carbon particle blocker materials so they were less sensitive. Other model T56s used a paper lining that could be damaged with some synthetics. This is why a blanket ATF T56 requirement. Some synthetic ATFs are ok but we cannot test all oils. Viper T56 used a synthetic gear oil from approx. ’96 on. Gear oils are high in sulfur content .This was not a problem with the carbon materials. When the TR6060 came in ‘08, the blocker material changed to a sintered bronze. The gear oil CANNOT be used with these. ATF is the only oil spec for the new units.

 

[1TONY1]

I will definitely be testing the second gear part out......and third and forth I wish John would have said if he has a fix for this. Maybe an 08/09 owner can tell us if the owners manual says that and what it says. I guess the key may be "speed shifted" which has different meanings depending on who you ask. Mostly, I am always on the easy side for the 1-2 shift to try and eliminate wheel spin unless the tires are hooked up and then I try to kill it

Tony, I sent a copy of this e-mail to John Donato to get his response, below is what he replied to me by e-mail:

Julio,

Thanks for the info.
This info is correct from all of the data I have been able to get from SRT. With the increased gear face width the Viper TR6060 is stronger than the T-56 with 9310 gears.
The one issue not mentioned is the possible failure of the 2nd gear blocker ring in the TR6060 if the transmission is speed shifted with the rear wheels spinning. This warning, I am told, is written in the factory owners manual in both the Viper and Challenger. I am trying to locate an owner manual to see the exact wording.
Ford is having some warranty issues from this 2nd gear issue in the Cobra Mustang.

John

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

The T56 in general is sensitive to oil type. Vipers always had the carbon particle blocker materials so they were less sensitive. Other model T56s used a paper lining that could be damaged with some synthetics. This is why a blanket ATF T56 requirement. Some synthetic ATFs are ok but we cannot test all oils. Viper T56 used a synthetic gear oil from approx. ’96 on. Gear oils are high in sulfur content .This was not a problem with the carbon materials. When the TR6060 came in ‘08, the blocker material changed to a sintered bronze. The gear oil CANNOT be used with these. ATF is the only oil spec for the new units.

This comment is incomplete. API GL-5 gear oils are typically higher sulfur and used in differentials. API GL-4 "gear oils" are lower sulfur and used in light duty diffs and manual transmissions. The Castrol Syntorq, Mopar synthetic manual transmission fluid, and GM synthetic transmission fluids are GL-4. It sounds like the engineer thinks the '96 and up Viper T56 used high sulfur gear oil...

True that GL-5, which is very aggressive chemistry, cannot be used. He recommends ATF, but what is missing is whether GL-4 oils can be used.

My old Duster with an A-833 had bronze rings and always had a gear oil, so I also don't see the automative gear oil-bronze incompatibility. Lastly, "Vipers always had the carbon particle rings?" We've always heard that early models had paper and had to stick with ATF.

 

[1TONY1]

This comment is incomplete. API GL-5 gear oils are typically higher sulfur and used in differentials. API GL-4 "gear oils" are lower sulfur and used in light duty diffs and manual transmissions. The Castrol Syntorq, Mopar synthetic manual transmission fluid, and GM synthetic transmission fluids are GL-4. It sounds like the engineer thinks the '96 and up Viper T56 used high sulfur gear oil...

True that GL-5, which is very aggressive chemistry, cannot be used. He recommends ATF, but what is missing is whether GL-4 oils can be used.

My old Duster with an A-833 had bronze rings and always had a gear oil, so I also don't see the automative gear oil-bronze incompatibility. Lastly, "Vipers always had the carbon particle rings?" We've always heard that early models had paper and had to stick with ATF.

I'm going to see what Chebby recommends for the Z06/ZR1. I really don't want to use ATF. Should I ask him about GL-4 ?

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Absolutely! I think Chebby will recommend their synthetic manual transmission fluid #12346190, which is GL-4, I believe.

 

[Disturbed]

Great Thread....please keep updating it.

 

[1TONY1]

What I went ahead and ordered yesterday was a complete driveshaft for a 2009 Viper. The two options were:

1. Yoke only for 2005 Viper truck $100*
2. Complete shaft for a 2009 Viper $200*
*Round numbers, exact $$ depends on your dealer discount.....if you don't get a discount let me know.

The reason I did the complete shaft:
1. Still got the yoke.
2. Got two u-joints...they are the good 799 Spicer joints (I have to keep these in stock anyway)
3. I can have the 2009 shaft shortened if I want to...cost $75 to $175 depending on who I use.

 

[Trans Doc]

You must use ATF in a 6060 transmission. I worked with SRT early on with the Challenger 6060. Due to the amount of synchronizer area with the triple cones, heavier oils will cause drag and clashing on shifts. Some cold down shifts would block you out totally.

I have looked at some of the synchro issues with the 6060 and have a few ideas that should work.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

You must use ATF in a 6060 transmission. I worked with SRT early on with the Challenger 6060. Due to the amount of synchronizer area with the triple cones, heavier oils will cause drag and clashing on shifts. Some cold down shifts would block you out totally.

I have looked at some of the synchro issues with the 6060 and have a few ideas that should work.

If it is a viscosity issue, what is the target and what is the operating temperature?

 

[1TONY1]

Update:
Got the trans in around midnight before we left last Friday morning on the Al/Tn Mtn. cruise. It got 610 miles on that trip. I am very pleased. I am using the stock shifter that came with it and it shifts very good. Short throws, firm stops. Also smoked a Hayabusa (and his girl) on a 3rd/4th gear pull 75-140 ... suffice to say, next time he may think twice about doing a ricer rev at a Viper....that or leave his girl at home

1. The new yoke on my gen2 driveshaft fit perfect.
2. Widened the already slotted hole in the crossmember.
3. Used my Spec clutch that I had been running.
4. I did take around .050" off the mounting pad for the speed sensor and drilled/tapped a bolt hole in the stock location for the sensor. Also drilled out the bottom of the hole for the sensor...hole was there but not all the way through. That hole is also barely to small in diameter and needs opened up (3/4" drill bit will work for lack of big machinery)
5. I used Dexron ATF per the tag on the transmission. I did check with Chevy and the Z06/Zr1 calls for GM manual transmission fluid....on the back of the GM fluid it says "contains ATF"

 

[Simms]

Great news and info Tony! Thanks.