TorontoACR
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That is a good point. When I had a grand national it was a lot of fun increasing the performance. I still like the look of a Gen II car. Some might not agree with me
Difference Between 2002 Motor and 2009 Motor
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Alexarz
Enthusiast
Are you kidding? Most people prefer the looks of a GTS over the new Vipers. Just look at the pinnacle of GTS beauty in the header above (1998 GTSR Viper). That thing blows away a Gen 4 ACR when it comes to looks. I have both a Gen 3 and Gen 2. I would never trade the Gen 2 for a newer Viper. You just cannot replace a GTS. You can always gain more performance. Hell, my '68 vette is so modified that it would kick the piss out of a Z06 in a telephone booth or a cross country Cannonball. You can't tell me that a GTS cannot be made to outperform a newer car. Just putting newer tires on a GTS does wonders for it's handling traits. I put '08 Viper tires on my GTS and it made a huge difference.
Remember that the Oreca GTS Vipers would kick the snot out of a Comp Coupe and a Comp Coupe would pummel an ACR. But why do you need a GTS to perform on level of a new ACR anyway? If you are not racing the car on a road course, then you need to consider your maturity level and ponder whether your ego is calling the shots here. A GTS can go a hell of a lot faster on a road than you need to be going.
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99VPRGTS
Enthusiast
Grand Nationals are sweetcars Toronto! My friend had one a couple years ago. Was a show and go car. He ran a mid 10 in it. Not bad for a V6!! What year was yours?
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99VPRGTS
Enthusiast
In the "Does any other car look good next to a GTS" thread you said this:
But now you say this:
But now you say this:
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TorontoACR
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My Grand national was also a 10 second car. Its was amazing how much power a small V6 could pump out, but that is the advantage of a turbocharger. As for my 02 ACR. I do get a bit ********** as to how much money i spent to buy it and now see that for a bit less money the new ACR is an improvement. i would rather just put some more money and bolt ons into my ACR and take it up to the 600hp level. Anybody have any idea as to what it will cost and who to buy the parts off. i want it street-able but fast and can handle at a road track or a drag strip.
CitySnake
Enthusiast
Seriously, would you take a good look at some of what you're spewing here. To suggest that you are dogmatically opinionated would be a severe understatement. Not only are your statements completely arguable, but i) they're completely speculative, ii) based on personal opinion and choice and iii) if they could possibly be proven (you'd need the same driver in both cars on the same track on the same day), likely demonstrated to be wrong.
I'd take far less offense if you allowed at least SOME room for differences of opinion. "A modded GTS WALLOPS a 2009 ACR" ... "A GTS BLOWS AWAY Gen 4 ACR when it comes to looks" ... "the Oreca GTS Vipers would KICK THE SNOT/PUMMEL an (Gen 4) ACR". Where do you come off making such uncompromising statements? There's not a single statement there that CAN represent fact (well, except for the "GTS cannot be made to outperform a newer car" statement, but you've neglected to mention the cost limitation which renders the statement irrelevant with regard to the topic). Using your "creative license," I might (but of of course, I would never) state that I am extraordinarily more articulate than you.
Alexarz
Enthusiast
In the "Does any other car look good next to a GTS" thread you said this:
But now you say this:
You cannot take a statement out of context and make it accurate, femme boy. When I said that a "change of tires.....", I was disputing your claim that a change of tires would make the ZR1 faster than an ACR. Keep in mind that the ACR had very little preparation racing on Nurburgring, whereas the ZR1 was practicing and being tweaked for 2 weeks. There were other factors that affected the results even more so than tires. SRT engineers confirmed that the ACR was likely to lap Nurburgring in the 7:15 second range with more practice on the track.
Do yourself a favor and don't argue with somebody who is spotting you some 40 - 50 IQ points.
Alexarz
Enthusiast
First of all, if you did some research, you would know that an Oreca GTS was considerably faster around a race track than a comp coupe. There are road racers here who have been testing the ACR in comparison to the come coupe and are at least 4 seconds a lap slower in the ACR than they are in the comp coupe.
Maybe your haste has prevented you from realizing that I have a Gen 3 Viper in addition to the GTS, so I am not partial to any Viper. The fact is that a GTS can obviously be modified to extraordinary performance levels. That was my point and you need to do some research before spewing ignorant nonsense on this forum.
01ACR/VIPER
Enthusiast
99VPRGTS-Did he say speed?
pteam
Viper Owner
Your best bet would be to put a supercharger on it for power, handling will be much more difficult. If you want everything just buy a gen 4 acr or wait til theyre slightly used as there is many many improvements, and resale value will be worth alot more, and then you wont have an 8-10 year old car.
99VPRGTS
Enthusiast
You cannot take a statement out of context and make it accurate, femme boy. When I said that a "change of tires.....", I was disputing your claim that a change of tires would make the ZR1 faster than an ACR. Keep in mind that the ACR had very little preparation racing on Nurburgring, whereas the ZR1 was practicing and being tweaked for 2 weeks. There were other factors that affected the results even more so than tires. SRT engineers confirmed that the ACR was likely to lap Nurburgring in the 7:15 second range with more practice on the track.
Do yourself a favor and don't argue with somebody who is spotting you some 40 - 50 IQ points.
First off cupcake, you can't even properly quote someone so the I would stop assuming that you are smarter than anyone, especially me.
Second, and again, you really don't know what you are talking about. The ZR1 is 3 seconds slower than the ACR around the ring and the ACR had over a week to prep. Again, you are being brand loyal. Swapping a tire that has a 220 treadwear to a tire with a 100 treadwear AND is a specifically designed for track use; and then running on a 13 mile course with almost 100 turns, will come out to an improvement of much more than 3 seconds.
In the other thread that I quoted him from, he stated that swapping tires on the ZR1 wouldn't make any difference in it's time around the ring. The ZR1 comes with regular 220 treadwear radials and he believes that if you put the cups on the car and re ran the ring, it wouldn't make the ZR1 faster. Those of us that have road raced know that this statement is laughable. So, we were talking about handling in the other thread as well...I just didn't feel like copying the entire post. Alexarz cracks me up. He thinks that bone stock GTS's can dyno 495RWHP with a catback exhaust. A very entertaining person...you would think that by the time you got to your 50's like he is, he would be more knowledgable than he is.
Alexarz
Enthusiast
First off cupcake, you can't even properly quote someone so the I would stop assuming that you are smarter than anyone, especially me.
Second, and again, you really don't know what you are talking about. The ZR1 is 3 seconds slower than the ACR around the ring and the ACR had over a week to prep. Again, you are being brand loyal. Swapping a tire that has a 220 treadwear to a tire with a 100 treadwear AND is a specifically designed for track use; and then running on a 13 mile course with almost 100 turns, will come out to an improvement of much more than 3 seconds.
In the other thread that I quoted him from, he stated that swapping tires on the ZR1 wouldn't make any difference in it's time around the ring. The ZR1 comes with regular 220 treadwear radials and he believes that if you put the cups on the car and re ran the ring, it wouldn't make the ZR1 faster. Those of us that have road raced know that this statement is laughable. So, we were talking about handling in the other thread as well...I just didn't feel like copying the entire post. Alexarz cracks me up. He thinks that bone stock GTS's can dyno 495RWHP with a catback exhaust. A very entertaining person...you would think that by the time you got to your 50's like he is, he would be more knowledgable than he is.
Don't call me "cupcake" in some ill attempt of finding a male companion, heterosexually challenged one. I did not say that better tires would not make a car faster than it was before but rather that it does not mean, specifically that the ZR1 would become faster than an ACR. Stop taking my statements out of context for the sake of trying to pull yourself out of a hole. If you knew a damn thing about cars, you would realize that an ACR is far more capable at road course racing than a ZR1. By GM's own admission, the Z06 is better for road racing than the ZR1, which of course is outgunned by the mighty ACR, as well. The ACR sets a new benchmark for stock production cars. If this fact pains you, I suggest that you cry yourself to sleep in the comforts and privacy of your home and not on this forum, where you are making quite a spectacle of yourself.
P.S. Please check over your sub-literate creations before posting them up. Your retorts are not only lavish with inaccuracies but are also riddled with grammatical errors indicative of a 9 year old author. I am beginning to think that I overestimated you and am spotting you more than 50 IQ points.
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Well as an enthusiast I could give you a break. Do a search and find out how many laps TOTAL the ACR had and you will see how wrong you are (2009 Dodge Viper ACR Sets Nurburgring Lap Record - Auto News - Motor Trend). Note the ACR record run (and entire morning) were witnessed by MotorTrend and documented in the web site and magazine. All-in-all they did 5 hot laps. Five. And only one shock adjustment. Hardly over a week of prep!First off cupcake, you can't even properly quote someone so the I would stop assuming that you are smarter than anyone, especially me.
Second, and again, you really don't know what you are talking about. The ZR1 is 3 seconds slower than the ACR around the ring and the ACR had over a week to prep. Again, you are being brand loyal. Swapping a tire that has a 220 treadwear to a tire with a 100 treadwear AND is a specifically designed for track use; and then running on a 13 mile course with almost 100 turns, will come out to an improvement of much more than 3 seconds.
Also a bit of a math lesson
7:26.4 - 7:22.1 = 4.3 seconds
A Gen 2 is a classic and maybe of us could have bought new Vipers, but bought Gen 2s instead. I have tons more power than any Gen 4. Other than the ACR the Gen4 does get 22mpg while my Viper only gets 20mph. I feel that my car can handle as well as a Gen4 (not an ACR at higher speeds though) and my car is MUCH faster at a dragstrip ... having gone 10.5@139mph on PS1s. My car has Gen 4 ACR brakes, Wider Billet wheels and PS2s. Lowered over an inch with Eibach springs and quarter balanced. I especially emjoy my Bluetooth stereo (much better than Dodge's "U connect") and my Sirrius in my GTS is far superior to the wife's Sat radio in her '08 Ram. I also installed a Hella Tire Pressure and Temperature Monitor System in my Gen 2 ($220) and, again, it is far superior to the simple Chrysler set-up in the Gen3s and the Ram.
I bought and installed Roe Racing's front fascia scoop kit to enhance the handling and cooling of my Viper. I also plan to add more air vents to the hood at some time in the future for adittional handling benefits.
I installed aftermarket HID headlights and that allowed me to put a light tint/protector on my headlights. I found that the Orange colored marker lights on the front of my Viper look terrible on all dark cars, expecially Vipers so I bought clear lenses and tinted them for an improvement in looks. I really like the Hennessey Venom rear spoilers although not the looks of the slope noses and I bought one from Macedo Motorsports to add to my car.
I like my 01 Viper GTS MUCH better than a Gen 4. Cost was probably equal or slightly over the cost of a Gen 4, alhtough I have been enjoying driving my car for years. I feel that while a new ACR might be faster than my GTS on a high speed track, I'm sure on a shorter track my GTS would be faster.
YOU decide what you prefer and go for it. This forum is for advice and there is even a lot of vette and mercedes/Lambo/Ferrari guys on this forum. Your advantage is that you can see what the members cars are, what they look like, which ones are more popular and which cars you like the best. What's the most important to YOU is what YOU like.
Check out the profiles and see pics and then decide who's opinion you like the best. Simple.
Ted
I bought and installed Roe Racing's front fascia scoop kit to enhance the handling and cooling of my Viper. I also plan to add more air vents to the hood at some time in the future for adittional handling benefits.
I installed aftermarket HID headlights and that allowed me to put a light tint/protector on my headlights. I found that the Orange colored marker lights on the front of my Viper look terrible on all dark cars, expecially Vipers so I bought clear lenses and tinted them for an improvement in looks. I really like the Hennessey Venom rear spoilers although not the looks of the slope noses and I bought one from Macedo Motorsports to add to my car.
I like my 01 Viper GTS MUCH better than a Gen 4. Cost was probably equal or slightly over the cost of a Gen 4, alhtough I have been enjoying driving my car for years. I feel that while a new ACR might be faster than my GTS on a high speed track, I'm sure on a shorter track my GTS would be faster.
YOU decide what you prefer and go for it. This forum is for advice and there is even a lot of vette and mercedes/Lambo/Ferrari guys on this forum. Your advantage is that you can see what the members cars are, what they look like, which ones are more popular and which cars you like the best. What's the most important to YOU is what YOU like.
Check out the profiles and see pics and then decide who's opinion you like the best. Simple.
Ted
99VPRGTS
Enthusiast
This is why you are so entertaining. If you don't think the ZR1 would have made up 4 seconds with the cups on then you are an idiot...old man.You are right, I was off a little on the difference. Thought the ZR1 was 7:25. As far as prep for the track, well, I'm sure that Dodge and Chevy both made sure that those cars were more than ready before they even reached the ring. If they didn't spend a week there tuning it there...I think it's safe to say that both cars spent months getting tweaked on other road courses.
My point is, in the hands of a pro driver, if that ZR1 had had the same cups on it as the Viper, it would have been faster than the 4.3 seconds the Viper beat it by. Thats all I'm saying.
You are right, I was off a little on the difference. Thought the ZR1 was 7:25. As far as prep for the track, well, I'm sure that Dodge and Chevy both made sure that those cars were more than ready before they even reached the ring. If they didn't spend a week there tuning it there...I think it's safe to say that both cars spent months getting tweaked on other road courses.
My point is, in the hands of a pro driver, if that ZR1 had had the same cups on it as the Viper, it would have been faster than the 4.3 seconds the Viper beat it by. Thats all I'm saying.
The ZR1 even got the VIPER's Michelin Pilot Sports 2 instead of the vette tires. Now you want the other "invented for Viper" tires??? I think let the vettes run the skinnier Goodyears again. The tires were invented for the VIPER.
Since I was at the VOI X where the ACR Ring video was first shown to the world (and the magaaine later) we also got a "rundown and summary of the "Engineer's" efforts.
GM spent over a million dollars and took a dozen ZR1s to Germany. Flown there in a C130 I believe with a team of engineers and their best driver. GM rented the track for the entire day. HUGE corporate effort.
SRT engineers rented a container and shipped 2 ACRs to Germany by BOAT and PAID for the entire effort out of their pockets. It was a matter of pride for the Dodge guys and GM did it as business. Remember Datsun said that their GTR 'ringer' was the fastest Road car in the world? So GM spent mega bucks and beat the GTR pretty good.
SRT engineers spent peanuts and spanked the Corporate sponsored supercharged vette. GM must be tired of getting spanked? A collector took his cars and rented the track and broadcast that his Maserati V12 beat his Ferrari Enzo and the ZR1, but not even close to the ACR (7:25?).
If you've watched the video then you know that the ACR could use a couple more shifts (instead of overrevving) and the three missed shifts leave a lot of room for improvement. The SRT engineers stated, on these forums (oops, members only) that they could have gotten into the teens with more effort. Soooo ... if the Veyron of the new 800rwhp vette $2,000,000 'one off' manage to beat the ACR's OLD time, someone will just use more effort and put up a better time. Until GM spends another $100,000 to develop some aerodynamic advantages over the Viper, they'll remain losers.
And no, I don't think that the vette could gain a flot of seconds with Viper only tires. If the tires were that important then why wouldn't GM have paid for 'special development tires' like Dodge did? Personally I think that it's good that GM spent the million on going to the ring with the teams of pros and dozen cars or maybe the Datsun GTR would have remained faster (with their 540rwhp ringer?) than the ZR1.
Ted
99VPRGTS
Enthusiast
It's obvious you don't understand the difference between a pilot sport 2 and a pilot sport cup. Two completely different tires. Different compound, different purpose, and 220-100 treadwear rating. Oh and BTW, pilot sport 2 and pilot sport cups were around long before the 08 Viper. The cup is a specific road race tire. That is the sole purpose of why it was produced.
Both cars each got one day at the ring to prep/run. It doesn't matter how they got there. Do you really think that Dodge didn't put as much track time in as the ZR1? They did...both cars went through months of testing on other proving grounds/tracks and Dodge also had a professional driver at the ring that day. Dodge also used a ******** edition ACR, had suspension adjustments, and aero adjustments. The ZR1 had no suspension adjustments (even though it's suspension is adjustable) and ran in stock spec.
As far as the ZR1 getting spanked...I really don't think that 4 seconds on a 13.2 mile course is a spanking. The ACR ran 7.22.xx and the ZR1 ran 7.26.xx.
Oh and LMFAO at the members only comment. Do you think that bothers me?
I'm not here to hate on the Viper; but, I give credit where credit is due and am not so brand loyal (like you and Alex) to the point where I throw common sense out the window. You are saying that the Vette can't make up 4 seconds because, well, it's a Vette...that is what is going on here. Bottom line is, if that same ZR1 on that same day ran with the cups, it would have run better than the ACR's time. The Cups are twice the tire the PS2 is and are specifically made for road racing.
Oh and BTW, The Zonda, Enzo, and MC12 are all within 2-3 seconds of the ACR and they also ran those times with non road race street tires. Do you know how much testing they had? NONE. They had a driver make 2 laps and those were their times. You going to tell me that with cups and more time out there they wouldn't have crushed the Viper's or Vette's times? You know what, you don't have to answer it, because I already know what you are going to say.
I'm done with you two. Your knowledge of road racing is..well...none. I have loved Vipers ever since the first one came out in 93. I will never sell mine and will be in the market for another one in the futue. But, I'm not biased because of it. You are both are so brand loyal you will defend the Viper to a fault no matter what the arguement, even if it makes sense. You both really need to stop being so biased...kinda makes you look...well...
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TorontoACR
Enthusiast
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I thought the Enzo was way down the list. I agree that 4 seconds on a 13 mile course is not a spanking. I also agree that tires that any car uses makes a big difference on any car. I also know that GM went with a factory team, while the Viper did not. GM put a lot of money in to send the ZR1 to Germany and make a good run. The Viper has not had any factory support for 7 years. But Both cars are very good performers and has beaten the European competition. I would love to own both cars and they almost look the same with Vette copying the Viper look. Can anyone put up the list of cars that have been at Nurbering.
99VPRGTS
Enthusiast
That is my feeling as well. I just can't believe how much against people are on here against the Vette. Yeah GM took a team over there but they both only got 1 day on the ring. Dodge hired a professional race car driver, GM used it's engineer. It doesn't matter, both cars are amazing and have crushed all the competetion, like you said. I will not hijack your thread any more lol. Good luck with whatever you plan to do with your car!
is your information as accurate on this as it was on the Viper specifics? I ask as I recall the Corvette team taking several weeks at the ring to optimize the vehicle, select the production tires and all. Not a 1 day visit, nor a 1 visit experience. Do an internet check for Blue Devil at Nurburgring to see some of the history. As I said my understanding is that GM developed the ZR1 at the ring specifically to make the record and provide a greater international presence for the car. No brand loyalty in providing accurate information!
AZTVR
Enthusiast
I haven't really followed the preceeding "he said-she said" posts in detail, so, I'm not commenting on that whole argument. It is too difficult to figure out who said what and what the context was on both sides of the argument, and I couldn't care less about that at all.
What I am interested in is if the above mentioned difference in tires is really as substantial as stated. I mean in the experience of users.
My understanding is that the treadwear rating is based on a public road test that does not exceed speed limits . The "beauty" of the PS2 is that it has two compounds, one on the edge for cornering and the other in the middle for life. The harder compound would dominate in the test that generates the treadwear rating, IMHO.
The softer compound that is designed for cornering is what would make the difference on a road race track. I suspect that the difference in track-specific performance between the PS2 and the cups on a curvy course is not nearly as great as the treadwear rating would lead one to believe.
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99VPRGTS
Enthusiast
You are kind of right, I should have been more specific. GM spent 2 weeks at the ring with the ZR1. However, out of the two weeks spent there, only one day was reserved for running the full laps to see what it would run. The other time was spent tuning the car to get it ready for production to the public. GM (and many other car manufactors) takes all of it's performance cars over to the ring for this same purpose. So, you are right in that the ZR1 was there for more than one day, but it only ran te full timed laps on one day. The ACR on the other hand, was already completed and ready for production. They only spent one day there but that day was strictly for running the timed lap. They hired formula 1 driver Tom Coronel to run it. He made some adjustments in the suspension, splitter, and wing during his runs and netted the top lap time, which you know, is 7:22.xx.
No matter which car is faster, I'll take an all grey ACR any day of the week over the ZR1...that car is fockng sick!!
Alexarz
Enthusiast
Some people keep wondering why so much negative sentiment toward the corvette is expressed here. I'll explain.
1. The reason why most of us here admire the Viper so much is because, since the beginning, Chrysler chose a target for what the car should be and has never waivered. The car is pure in its identity, not half this and some of that and not compromised at all. To the contrary, the vette can't decide if it is a gadget car, sports car or luxury car (albeit with half ass quality at best). When it came to building a supervette, what did they do? First they built the Z06 with flailing roofs, crap interior, superficial gadgetry galore and paint jobs that would humiliate its buyers. Then, in an effort to continue competing with the Viper, they introduce the ZR1, with a silly hood window and a supercharger. The ZR1 is not distinguishable from the Z06 or the standard vette to anybody but the most dedicated car enthusiasts. Chevy simply doesn't get it. They keep missing the target. The Viper has always hit the target, dead on and the new ACR is yet another example of all that is admirable of the marque.
2. Vette owners continue to infiltrate Viper forums, pleading for respect and love, bellowing for status and crying out their inferiority complex with *****-like desperation. Viper owners do not bother to seek vette forums and do not engage in such petty behavior.
3. Since Bob Lutz has gone to GM, it is obvious that they are out to tarnish the Viper's image, via creating performance levels on par with the Viper. Everything else about the car is econo car quality yet they are determined to destroy the Viper name by equaling its performance. The paint jobs are worse than that on a Kia, the drivetrain is weak, the interior can fit the average *** bellied american man in it but has no soul, the reliability is very poor and the car hasn't any status, whatsoever. In other words, in reality it is a very half ass attempt and obvious that it is only being built to tarnish the Viper name. If GM were serious about the ZR1, it would look like the C6R, with the wing, splitter and no supercharger, instead it would have what built the corvette name some 40 years ago, a thunderous big block motor. If GM built a modern day ZL1 or L88, it would be very well received by Viper owners, after all, that is what a Viper is.
The modern corvette is a poser, a half ass attempt and that is why it receives so much disdain, despite the fact that it is american.
1. The reason why most of us here admire the Viper so much is because, since the beginning, Chrysler chose a target for what the car should be and has never waivered. The car is pure in its identity, not half this and some of that and not compromised at all. To the contrary, the vette can't decide if it is a gadget car, sports car or luxury car (albeit with half ass quality at best). When it came to building a supervette, what did they do? First they built the Z06 with flailing roofs, crap interior, superficial gadgetry galore and paint jobs that would humiliate its buyers. Then, in an effort to continue competing with the Viper, they introduce the ZR1, with a silly hood window and a supercharger. The ZR1 is not distinguishable from the Z06 or the standard vette to anybody but the most dedicated car enthusiasts. Chevy simply doesn't get it. They keep missing the target. The Viper has always hit the target, dead on and the new ACR is yet another example of all that is admirable of the marque.
2. Vette owners continue to infiltrate Viper forums, pleading for respect and love, bellowing for status and crying out their inferiority complex with *****-like desperation. Viper owners do not bother to seek vette forums and do not engage in such petty behavior.
3. Since Bob Lutz has gone to GM, it is obvious that they are out to tarnish the Viper's image, via creating performance levels on par with the Viper. Everything else about the car is econo car quality yet they are determined to destroy the Viper name by equaling its performance. The paint jobs are worse than that on a Kia, the drivetrain is weak, the interior can fit the average *** bellied american man in it but has no soul, the reliability is very poor and the car hasn't any status, whatsoever. In other words, in reality it is a very half ass attempt and obvious that it is only being built to tarnish the Viper name. If GM were serious about the ZR1, it would look like the C6R, with the wing, splitter and no supercharger, instead it would have what built the corvette name some 40 years ago, a thunderous big block motor. If GM built a modern day ZL1 or L88, it would be very well received by Viper owners, after all, that is what a Viper is.
The modern corvette is a poser, a half ass attempt and that is why it receives so much disdain, despite the fact that it is american.
