Doomed

[black mamba1]

Question: What do many if not most Viper owners and VCA members have in common with Mitt Romney, Carl Rove, and Dick Morris?

Answer: The inability to understand, interpret, comprehend, and accept the real world that exist around them despite all the facts and data staring them right in the face.

I love every generation of Viper made, the Gen 2 and Gen 4 being my favorites, but I also love the Gen 5. And many if not most of you also love the Gen 5, but there simply are not enough of us around to sustain this Viper. I wrote a post wayyyy back in the spring I think..whenever the Gen 5 body style and horsepower numbers were first released...that post was called The Death of the Viper.

I was hammered, ridiculed, and pretty much tarred and feathered...which is probably gonna also be the response to this post as well. And the reason I wrote that post is the same reason I am writing this post....a 640 hp Viper being released in 2013 IS NOT A COMPETITIVE SPORTS CAR. This car will immediatlely be placed in the Aston Martin cateragory..it is now a car living off its nostalgia and legacy, something only understood and respected by die hard Viper owners and those who simply have an extra $165,000 lying around for the fully loaded GTS or an extra $110,000 lying around for a decent SRT Viper. I said months ago the numbers for a 640 hp Viper would not be all that impressive.....and the fact of the matter is....they are not.

Quite honestly...every single person in this forum knows fully well everyone in the Mustang forums, Corvette forums, Ferrari forums...and even some Audi R8 forums....ARE LAUGHING THEIR ASSES OFF at the Vipers performance numbers finally released.

When the ZR1's numbers were released 4 YEARS AGO they also came in at 11.5 sec in the 1/4 mile but at 128 mph. GM was very disappointed and said the numbers should be more in the line of 11.3, and later test proved them right...and again..THAT WAS 4 YEARS AGO.

The 662 hp Mustang is running 11.6.
The 2012 Porsche Turbo is running 10.7
The 2012 Ferrari Italia is running 11.0
The Lambo Aventador is running 10.6.
The GTR is running 10.9.

What this means is that this new Viper will be embarassed by practically every sports car in its cateragory and practically every single sports car in its price range except the Audi R8.

So...what was once the WORLDS MOST FEARED and highly respected sports car has been Europeanized and is now actually SLOWER in a drag race than 95% of everyting else in its cateragory. I will say it again...this is the path of the Aston Martin. We now have pretty stitching and Harmon Kardon stereo's with 72 speakers...but we will get our lunch eaten by most of the competition.

Yes...many if not most of you will say..."the numbers will get better"...or "the test conditions were not good" or "magazines dont test the car the right way"....well...quite honestly, those are the excuses that losers say when their cars dont perform. But these are EXACTLY the numbers I was expecting because SRT was being so tight-lipped about the numbers. Nobody keeps good news secret.

So, yes, we will still have a Viper that will dominate on the track (probably) but we will also have a Viper that cannot hold its own red light to red light against practically every car in its cateragory...and we all know that THATS where bragging rights really come from.

And they are charging up to $165,000 for this car in GTS form? Yeah...right. I love the Viper and will still buy a Gen 5...but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to realize that this car as is......is

Doomed.

 

[mnc2886]

Wife must have found out you bought a Gen V.....

 

[99t1]

Someone had sausage and peppers for the third night in a row....sheeesh...go get a gallardo and blow it out

 

[bluestreak]

Red light to red lightbis where bragging rights come from?


Someone tell this dude its the 21 century and no one cares about 0-60 red light times. People hardly even do that anymore unless they are in cars that drive themselves off the line. Launch control on rwd cars is mostly a gimmick anyways.

The acr was THE most feared and dominant viper probably ever. Nothing you ever see driving around was really in the ballpark. And it was neither a drag queen or 0-60 champ. It was a road course dominator just like you mentioned. And that was enough.

 

[VENOM V]

See a therapist, take an anger management class, or go get a medical marijuana prescription. The sky isn't falling, the world is not coming to an end.

 

[SADVIPER]

lol
the guys gave good responses

 

[HOLLYWOOD1]

I totally agree with BM1...I just found out from a dealer friend in Quebec that the loaded GTS will be retailing at $157K.....I said to him that once the initial excitement and hoopla wore off that there will most certainly be a lot of over priced inventory sitting around on lots. The numbers for this car are not spectacular buy any stretch and really if you guys think that these are acceptable then fine enjoy the car as it really is nice but for this price its overrated. I am going to be adding a GTR or 10 ACR to my stable......Have fun stroking the $160k cheque as this price is ridiculous for what you are getting. Just my .02.

 

[05Commemorative]

Wow, the tough times we live in when a new introduced 640hp car signals that we are doomed. It is so bad that it is forcing folks to buy a GTR or a used ACR. Wouldn't it be nice to actually evaluate the car on it true overall merits as a car compared to its competition and not silly 0-60 and 1/4 times. Why no focus on its skidpad rating or top speed or track performance which truly defines the car. Also, why no value put on the higher quality?

Ask yourself this, does the R8 customer walk around with the need to talk about a 0-60 times? Does a Ferrarri owner? No, and for good reason (they purchased a quality product and don't need to feel bad about it)

Only folks that seem to feel that need and talk about how much HP they have is Mustang, Camaro, Corvette and seemingly way too many Viper owners. I think it is time to have more respect for the overall car that is being offered and actually appreciate it for the great offering it is.

 

[HOLLYWOOD1]

Wow, the tough times we live in when a new introduced 640hp car signals that we are doomed. It is so bad that it is forcing folks to buy a GTR or a used ACR. Wouldn't it be nice to actually evaluate the car on it true overall merits as a car compared to its competition and not silly 0-60 and 1/4 times. Why no focus on its skidpad rating or top speed or track performance which truly defines the car. Also, why no value put on the higher quality?

Ask yourself this, does the R8 customer walk around with the need to talk about a 0-60 times? Does a Ferrarri owner? No, and for good reason (they purchased a quality product and don't need to feel bad about it)


Only folks that seem to feel that need and talk about how much HP they have is Mustang, Camaro, Corvette and seemingly way too many Viper owners. I think it is time to have more respect for the overall car that is being offered and actually appreciate it for the great offering it is.

At $ 160K...you better believe it. Its a nice car but there are a lot of other choices for that kind of money.

 

[05Commemorative]

At $ 160K...you better believe it. Its a nice car but there are a lot of other choices for that kind of money.

where are you getting the 160k figure?

You can get loaded SRT model for <110k and a GTS for 130k and those are MSRP #'s.

Sure, there are other choices at that price range (or any range you pick), but the HP and 0-60# is not going to decide it for most. That is left to be in the hands of lower priced cars trying to compete. There is a good reason there are more GTS orders now vs SRT. HP and 0-60 times are not it.

 

[SADVIPER]

Wow, the tough times we live in when a new introduced 640hp car signals that we are doomed. It is so bad that it is forcing folks to buy a GTR or a used ACR. Wouldn't it be nice to actually evaluate the car on it true overall merits as a car compared to its competition and not silly 0-60 and 1/4 times. Why no focus on its skidpad rating or top speed or track performance which truly defines the car. Also, why no value put on the higher quality?

Ask yourself this, does the R8 customer walk around with the need to talk about a 0-60 times? Does a Ferrarri owner? No, and for good reason (they purchased a quality product and don't need to feel bad about it)

Only folks that seem to feel that need and talk about how much HP they have is Mustang, Camaro, Corvette and seemingly way too many Viper owners. I think it is time to have more respect for the overall car that is being offered and actually appreciate it for the great offering it is.

Well-put last bit.

 

[bluestreak]

At $ 160K...you better believe it. Its a nice car but there are a lot of other choices for that kind of money.

Let's talk about what exactly? A much slower R8, Gallardo? If you wanted to drive around to be seen and not have a real performance car, the Viper wouldn't be a top option anyways. If you are cross shopping a GT-R and Viper, you have an identity crisis at hand. There are Viper die hards who will probably put out to buy the 150-160k fully loaded GTS to sit in their garage and drive occasionally on the weekends. That's focusing on worst case scenario since we are talking about performance here. People who want performance to actually USE won't have a fully loaded heavier frills car.

Speaking of which though, people said the same thing about the ZR-1 (a 120k Corvette) and what happened there? It outsold the Z06 and got a longer production run. SRT is selling the Vipers to the SAME PEOPLE. People who want to portray an image with what they drive. Middle aged guys who want a car they can enjoy that's not cave manish. Think SRT didn't take note of ZR-1 sales??? What you will find is that the GTS might actually outsell the base models with track packs and all that. Very smart of SRT to include this option for a customer base that is older and aging and want a creature comfort Viper.

If that doesn't pan out, you still have the base Viper that's still a monster.

People forget the generation III and IV were largely forgettable if it were not for the ACR (when it comes to performance). The Gen III got spanked by the Z06 and then the Gen IV only surpassed it because of the MPSC that came on it and it was still a nail biter in most scenarios. The Z07 spec Corvette with the MPSC smokes the Gen IV on the track and they are pretty much even on the drag strip. The ZR-1 is just plain faster. There is a long list of cars that are faster than the non-acr Gen IV so all of the bench racers can calm down a bit. Times have changed and competition is steeper than ever. The Viper is a niche car, and we should be glad it's still around to begin with. I think the Gen V is off to a good start to make sure it stays around.

The point is don't sell the worst case fully loaded price as if it's even close to what people will have to (or choose to) pay. When the ACR rolls around, we should expect a world ******, but the Gen III and IV cars were nothing of the sort.

 

[ringram]

Throw an exhaust on it perhaps with a bit of intake tuning and it should hit 700fwhp
I have this same argument with guys who FI their v8's all the time. They go slower than me faster. Zero traction, un-useable power.
Whats important is how it puts the power down. The viper torque curve will ensure accelleration across the rpm range, not just at the top end like many of the cars you note.
Anyway, lets wait and see some circuit and track times. I think you have climaxed too early

 

[Fatboy 18]

Not a bad post there Black Mamba 1, Have to sort of agree on some of your points, but what is good is that a large car company can, in these times of recession have the balls to step out and build a new car like this. Yes the price is high and if were honest it will not sell to the masses. But if the car bites into the European import market, that's got to be a good thing for Jobs in the USA and help in a small way boost the economy. I think your right about the bragging times, if i'm at car shows, people still ask me what's the 0 to 60 times!

Of course now, many people boast about the Ring Times, Hell Ive even bought both the T shirts Of course your right about other manufactures having close figures. BUT the car will appeal to people even if it is slower, not everyone I know, but there will be a market. I actually think sales will increase due to the now high quality interior. When you look at High end European and *** cars the interiors have always been a lot better finished, Well SRT have pulled through now with a quality product. (The wives and Girlfriends will now be happy). Allso most car magazines are giving the car Great reviews, that says something?
Good luck to SRT / Dodge, I can't wait to see a few of these driving in Europe

 

[ViperSmith]

Only teenage girls care what others think about them.

I can't wait for mine.

 

[ViperSmith]

One set of posted times from a pre production car (from edmunds of all places) and y'all are acting like the world is over. LOL.

 

[PDCjonny]

SRT should release it's own figures surely they have them to the millisecond.
And why give a pre-production untweaked car to a car reviewer who is going to publish the numbers?
Doesn't make sense from a purely business viewpoint to me.

 

[01sapphirebob]

We now have a world class Viper. Better interior, revised brakes, more horse power, the highest torque rating of ANY N/A motor made today, the second best power to weight ratio, 50% stiffer chassis, and I could go on. We were given what we asked for. Now of course 640 h.p. doesn't seem like a lot but one thing I always like to "brag" about is the fact that it's 640 NATURALLY ASPIRATED h.p. To me that's just awesome and one of the best bragging rights out there. Not too many people can say that about their sports cars. Also, don't think for a second that SRT isn't gonna try and figure out how to get more ponies out of our V10. They had a very limited time frame and budget to get the WHOLE car reworked and brought to market.

As far as the car being doomed....Talk to Bill Pemberton or Bernie Katz and ask them. Bill has said on many occasions since ordering has opened up that there are a good number of F and P car guys coming over to Viper. Doesn't sound like doomed to me. These are the guys that wouldn't even touch a Viper two years ago and now are getting their first one some twenty years after the car was first produced. This is a good thing for Viper and as mentioned above those guys aren't necessarily concerned about performance numbers so much as quality of product. Me personally...I care a little bit about the numbers...yea it's nice to say I have the fastest 0-60 time and quarter mile time etc. I'm however NOT gonna take the first numbers published as gospel. Let me see ALL the numbers and then we can talk. I remember that Motor Trend back in '97 was the only car mag that got a GTS to do 0-60 in 4.1 sec. EVERYONE else listed (tested) the car 2 to 3 tenths slower. So as the saying goes "Hold your horses." We haven't seen the SRT Viper really tested yet. The article in question even admitted themselves they had less then perfect testing conditions. Just saying...

 

[v10enomous]

Question: What do many if not most Viper owners and VCA members have in common with Mitt Romney, Carl Rove, and Dick Morris?

That they may lose a few battles but always win the war

 

[BigDawg]

Had you not posted your unnecessary Question and Answer I might have given you some credit. Please save your political plugs for the niketalk forum or maybe ESPN.com. They'd appreciate that over there. On a forum composed of business owners, professionals, and winners that jab isn't going to be appreciated.

Now to the point. As others have mentioned, yes a lot of F and P cars guys will cross over, TEMPORARILY. I predicted the same thing with the SRT Jeep. They crossed over to have the newest thing on the block, shortly there after they sold it and went back for the snob factor. Going after Ferrari and Porsche guys has to be the dumbest business plan I've heard. I disagree with all of you. SRT could easily have offered one model of Viper, improved the interior without going overboard, and ditched the stupid stuff like the adjustable ride control. Completely unnecessary for a Viper. If you don't like it, don't buy it. There are countless other sports cars and exotics out there within reach.

The Viper was defined by it's flat out refusal to conform and to appease the naysayers. The whole premise of the Gen V is compromise. The Viper NEVER compromised. The Viper said F U to all of you nanny comfort people and made a crude raw machine. Why? Because no one else did. It was great. Now the nanny bots say "purist have their option, we have ours". I say bull****. That dilutes the Viper. Nanny people should not have an option. Well, they do have options, only they are from different manufacturers. So ESC had to be mandated? Fine, I accept that. Put a decent stereo in it, give it nice leather interior, fine, I accept that. But to go over the top with all of the goodies is a slap in the face to the Viper's heritage. The Viper is not a Ferrari no matter how bad some of you secretly wish it to be. The gen V Viper is a lost and confused car. It's attempting to appeal to too many groups instead of the niche market it's best at.

Now we've got a cheapo (sarcasm people) model with a crappy interior being upstaged by a fancy GTS. Lame.

Will I buy a Gen V? Yes, probably after they give it a HP bump. Am I greatly disappointed in the direction SRT took the Viper? Yes. Then again, I'm also disappointed in the evolution of the Viper crowd. A lot of yuppies now.

PS. The Gen III never sold well because it was a terrible design. Flat and angular. It was a huge departure from what made the Viper successful. It had nothing to do with the lack of refinement. Only a stupid bean counter would attribute refinement to its decline. The Gen III/IV survived because of the loyalty of the diehard Viper fan.

PS2. Of the ZR1 guys I know, none paid anywhere near MSRP for theirs. That wasn't long after they were released. Don't forget the Vette's 50 year or so heritage. With that many fans they would have sold regardless of specs.

 

[vipernut]

Here's my opinion...if you love the car for ANY reason...it's numbers ..it's looks.....whatever!! buy it! if you don't ..DON'T!!

We all have eyes and a brain and can see the car and know what it does on the track and at red lights....don't need someone to be a spoiler by pointing this and that out. And it's so much more than just how fast and/or how powerful it is!!

I traded my last viper for an Audi R8 and quickly realized it (for me) had no soul@! I had no passion for the car.... so I'm coming back to the most gorgeous **** high powered vehicle on the planet..(IMHO)!!

If you don't like it....buy yourself something else. Nothing anyone can say can spoil or deter me!! or anybody else that loves this car for the reasons they love this car!!

 

[BlackSnake99]

Well said BigDawg.

 

[JAY]

I'll Reserve Judgement for the Real World . And Not the Doom Sayers ...lol!

 

[Smog Dog]

Here's my opinion...if you love the car for ANY reason...it's numbers ..it's looks.....whatever!! buy it! if you don't ..DON'T!!

We all have eyes and a brain and can see the car and know what it does on the track and at red lights....don't need someone to be a spoiler by pointing this and that out. And it's so much more than just how fast and/or how powerful it is!!

I traded my last viper for an Audi R8 and quickly realized it (for me) had no soul@! I had no passion for the car.... so I'm coming back to the most gorgeous **** high powered vehicle on the planet..(IMHO)!!

If you don't like it....buy yourself something else. Nothing anyone can say can spoil or deter me!! or anybody else that loves this car for the reasons they love this car!!

Well stated! My sentiments exactly.....

Bill

 

[PDCjonny]

I traded my last viper for an Audi R8 and quickly realized it (for me) had no soul@!

You must have got the 4.2....

 

[v10enomous]

So for the people that buy the new Viper... (I'd still take 1 Gen V over 2 ZR1's) it will maintain one of it's best attributes. Knowing that you are driving a car that says

"I Don't Give a $hit What Anyone Else Thinks"

As far as soul goes... We know what the Viper has in it's soul and the Gen V captures that with all the refinements of a high end exotic.

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[ferraritoviper]

SRT should release it's own figures surely they have them to the millisecond.
And why give a pre-production untweaked car to a car reviewer who is going to publish the numbers?
Doesn't make sense from a purely business viewpoint to me.

+1...and wonder what SRT response is?

 

[v10enomous]

If Fiat were smart they would build a retro 250 GTO on a Ferrari powered Viper platform...

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[kennyhemi]

Maybe it's just me? But I am of the theory of low profile approach! I drive a diesel 4x4 ram (not much of a look at me vehicle) then have a gen 3/4 twin turbo....so forget all the other exotics as nothing can be modded and run as fast as a viper with forced induction! All of the other cars are forced induced and the viper is naturally aspirated, so with a way smaller investment you will be a top dog ? If you are vain then go buy a Bugatti! Remember to keep your eyes on the road! As most euro excotics owner are always scanning around to see who is checking them out! These are people that are vain/low self esteem that I don't like to be labeled as I have been in the past once people find out I drive a viper and lump me in that category without even knowing me!

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Reality --- Don't have a single order for a Viper at 165K, and only one barely over 150K. Have numerous SRTs for 105 to 108K , and we are getting plenty of new buyers who see the beauty and uniqueness of the new Snake.

Lastly , not sure where you are getting all your acceleration times, but as we also have a Nissan Store and a Ford Store across the street many of the published times for those vehicles are not as you state. So why would it be any different for a Gen V. We will have someone rip off a killer time in a stock Viper, who can really drive, and it will go viral in no time. Heck, we had a guy on the East Coast run virtually 11 flat in a Gen IV.

Just a quick comment from someone who does not think the sky is falling.