Downshift to brake?

[alduin]

Hey everyone, new owner of a red 2013 here and new member to the forums.

I just thought I would get your opinions on downshifting to brake.

I've heard online that some people feel that brakes are cheaper than a clutch so they spare their clutch and just brake using the brakes.

I've also heard that viper clutches are built like a tank, so you're totally fine to downshift while braking.

What are your thoughts?

I can't say that I'm good at doing it yet, so anyone have any tips? It seems like to brake, you want to downshift without rev matching, but if you want a smooth downshift (but not for braking) you want to rev match before downshifting. Do you also downshift all the way down to first when coming to a stop light, or do you just downshift to second and use the brakes from there?

Thanks!

 

[lateapex]

Heel toe as you use the brakes primarily

Here is how it should sounds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMcbeAzBspE

Here is a great lesson. Fast forward to 13:00 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqYeusE8ksk

 

[VIPER GTSR 91]

Street vs track is a whole different style for the most part but DONT use the clutch to brake or slow anywhere as it can cause the rear end to come out on you and loose control.

 

[Allan]

The brakes are for slowing the car down.
The clutch is for shifting gears.
Downshifting as a habit to decelerate the car is a bad idea.
It is not an issue of 'the cost of brakes vs the cost of a clutch'.

Downshifting instead of brakes is poor driving technique that will make the rest of us think you need to buy a different sports car with an automatic to keep you out of trouble.

As stated above, there is a potential to have the rear get loose and spin the car without warning.

It's your Viper. Drive it however you like. But if you ask a question like that here, expect us to be brutally honest.
The Viper is not a forgiving car, and if you do things it doesn't like or disrespect it, you will get bit.

 

[pathoguy]

Have driven mostly manual transmissions for 40 years. From tearing up the streets of London in Triumphs to 3 vipers (Gen 5 last one). I have always downshifted to assist in braking which I suppose is different to braking. If I see a red light well ahead and have plenty of time, I very gently downshift and allow the motor to ease the car down in a very gentle way. This is from 45 mph or slower. Also approaching curves, I often downshift not so much to brake but to be in the ideal gear when leaving the curve. I have never lost traction nor caused damage, from downshifting in this way.

Traded Gen 5 recently for 7 speed automatic (twin turbo, V8) due to hernias. Shifting of any kind is sadly becoming a distant memory.

 

[vortec04]

Similar to Pathoguy, I've always downshifted in order to be in the correct gear after the corner. Generally its a better idea to rely on the brakes than it is the engines compression, purely for control under braking. Having raced formula cars, touring cars, karts, and pretty much everything in between I'll also say that a rear biased braking system will not make the rear end come around and make you crash, not on pavement at least... Generally, as a race car driver I would adjust the brake bias controller more to the rear when i felt this happening under braking. Karts are your perfect example. They reach ridiculous speeds and have only rear brakes yet will not start spinning when you lock up the rear tires under braking. Nonetheless, heel toe downshifting done properly should reduce the abrupt changes in wheel speed that might upset the car and make it feel unstable.

In every day driving it is completely up to you and yea your clutch might get slightly more wear and tear that could be otherwise avoided. Personally I'll accept that extra wear and tear but know i am always in the right gear.

 

[ViperPete]

I have a Ram SRT10 Quad Cab with a T56. Unless you are on a racetrack there is no reason to use the transmission to slow the car down.
The engine sounds cool, but that's all it does. Otherwise it is just extra wear and tear on the drivetrain.

Heel-toe is used to increase the revs of the engine while you are braking so when you are coming out of a corner, your engine speed and transmission speed will be much closer, so your on the power right away.

Use your brakes.

 

[bluesrt]

U can use both to brake actually

 

[Boxer12]

Whatever you've read about G1-4 cars prob doesn't apply to your G5, which is the first model with TC. Drive it hard the way you want and have fun. Just my 2c.

 

[Nine Ball]

Men who use the engine and downshifting gears to slow a car down, ugh. Total poser drivers. They just think it sounds cool, but it lets the rest of us know that you can't drive a manual properly.

 

[pathoguy]

Of course I am a poser driver, driving 3 vipers in a row at the speed limit, and never a street race. Had the gen 5 for a year and cannot recall exceeding 4500 rpms. What the hell was someone like me doing in such a driver's car.....scandalous I tell you. Should not be allowed. Having elevated driving skills, as clearly many have demonstrated on this forum, and then looking down on and ridiculing those that don't, is a form of car snobbery. You can add that to your skill set.

 

[Allan]

Men who use the engine and downshifting gears to slow a car down, ugh. Total poser drivers. They just think it sounds cool, but it lets the rest of us know that you can't drive a manual properly.

Wow.

That is kinda what I was trying to say.................but in a nicer more reasonable fashion.
Thanks for the 'straight talk' perspective.

 

[Allan]

Of course I am a poser driver, driving 3 vipers in a row at the speed limit, and never a street race. Had the gen 5 for a year and cannot recall exceeding 4500 rpms. What the hell was someone like me doing in such a driver's car.....scandalous I tell you. Should not be allowed. Having elevated driving skills, as clearly many have demonstrated on this forum, and then looking down on and ridiculing those that don't, is a form of car snobbery. You can add that to your skill set.

I think you are just a guy that obviously enjoys your cars in a more laid back manner.
-not very typical for Viper guys.

I think Nine Ball's post is more directed to the OP's original question than your post.
As he was asking if downshifting is a good substitute for brakes to slow the car down. His concern was the debate of wear and tear on the vehicle, and which costs less, the brakes or the clutch.

 

[ViperSmith]

driving on the road i'll down shift and let the drive train slow the car down.

i don't care. i don't care what other think. i don't care if it is right or wrong.

 

[alduin]

Wow. Interesting discussion. I didn't realize this would spark such a passionate debate.

Yeah, for me, I was thinking about just downshifting during normal street driving while pulling up to stoplights or stop signs.

I don't race, and I don't even know how to drive this car fast. Hah. The capabilities of this car is wasted on me, but this was a childhood dream to own a viper that I was able to realize.

Thanks again for the advice!

 

[VIPER GTSR 91]

Wow. Interesting discussion. I didn't realize this would spark such a passionate debate.

Yeah, for me, I was thinking about just downshifting during normal street driving while pulling up to stoplights or stop signs.

I don't race, and I don't even know how to drive this car fast. Hah. The capabilities of this car is wasted on me, but this was a childhood dream to own a viper that I was able to realize.

Thanks again for the advice!

Most posts with good questions like yours on here usually ends in a heated debate unfortunately. Some have the right answers, some do not, and some could care less. I would suggest at least a one day driving school with or without your car to really learn what to do AND a professionals way of teaching. Even though you do not plan to track your car, you have an expensive and very powerful car to take care of, and yourself!

 

[SingleMalt]

Men who use the engine and downshifting gears to slow a car down, ugh. Total poser drivers. They just think it sounds cool, but it lets the rest of us know that you can't drive a manual properly.

 

[Nine Ball]

Of course I am a poser driver, driving 3 vipers in a row at the speed limit, and never a street race. Had the gen 5 for a year and cannot recall exceeding 4500 rpms. What the hell was someone like me doing in such a driver's car.....scandalous I tell you. Should not be allowed. Having elevated driving skills, as clearly many have demonstrated on this forum, and then looking down on and ridiculing those that don't, is a form of car snobbery. You can add that to your skill set.

He asked for our OPINIONS. Sorry I didn't sugar-coat it, so that you'd not get your feelings hurt. If I saw you downshifting your car to pull up to a redlight, I'd laugh at you. These guys usually have loud exhaust too, so that they can let other cars around them know how badass they are. vrooooom VROOOOOOOOM VROOOOOOM!!!! (complete stop).

Again, my own opinion. If it offends you, that is your own issue.

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

The initial question was more of should I brake or should I downshift to slow down the car. Simple answer is brake, as you will find few adherents at SRT Engineering who would advocate engine braking only with our big thumping V10 and all it's torque. Heck , miss a shift and see how much fun you have stopping ,ha. On the other hand, I usually agree with Nine Ball, but heel and tow downshifting , on the street , is perfectly acceptable to me and in fact have been doing it for over 35 years as I think it helps those who track their cars keep the feel for the track. In fact numerous friends, who also instruct, have advised new drivers to find an area to practice this method prior to going to the track. I know a lot of my friends who routinely heel and toe while driving around town, as it keeps them fresh and in practice when not on the road course. So beg to disagree, since most Viper drivers find other see them as Badass anyway, but heel and toe downshifting ( which also is a ballet that includes braking ) , is likely a habit I will take to my grave. Older you get, the more you need practice ,ha.

 

[steve e]

I am guilty of down shifting to slow down to, I do it not to be cool, its more of being lazy I think, what I also do a lot, not with my car just friends and dealer cars that I am test driving is I pull up ******* the parking brake and cut the wheel to the right or left depending on the road I am on.

 

[Nine Ball]

Bill P, I also practice my heel-toe downshifts. But that isn't the same thing as purposely downshifting into a lower gear to basically jake-brake a gas engine. Heel-toe still uses the brake to slow the car down. The other does not. Heel-toe is basically blipping the throttle to increase the rpm, so that the engine does not purposely slow down the car (or lock the rear tires on a track). Not the same thing.

 

[lateapex]

Its all about smoothness whether you are on the track or on the road. In theory, there should be no pitch forward or aft when shifting up or down. When done correctly, its smoother than an automatic transmission. This was the purpose behind the videos that I posted. Imagine an egg on the hood of the car!

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Sounds like everyone is trying to say the same thing, but getting caught up in semantics , so in summation; Braking only to slow down , not advisable. Use the brakes to slow down , and then when you get comfortable you can work on the technique called Heel & Toe downshifting and become proficient in the ballet of shifting and braking to slow the car down ( while keeping the revs up ).

 

[PeerBlock]

Men who use the engine and downshifting gears to slow a car down, ugh. Total poser drivers. They just think it sounds cool, but it lets the rest of us know that you can't drive a manual properly.

I've never used the engine instead of the brakes to slow on a level surface, but what about using the engine to maintain a speed when going down a hill vs riding the brakes?

Bill P, I also practice my heel-toe downshifts. But that isn't the same thing as purposely downshifting into a lower gear to basically jake-brake a gas engine. Heel-toe still uses the brake to slow the car down. The other does not. Heel-toe is basically blipping the throttle to increase the rpm, so that the engine does not purposely slow down the car (or lock the rear tires on a track). Not the same thing.

I've always thought heel-toe was about rev-matching between shifts to keep the engine in the power band as you transition from braking to accelerating, so that you can shave a few extra 1/10ths off a lap time.

 

[DMan]

Bill P, I also practice my heel-toe downshifts. But that isn't the same thing as purposely downshifting into a lower gear to basically jake-brake a gas engine. Heel-toe still uses the brake to slow the car down. The other does not. Heel-toe is basically blipping the throttle to increase the rpm, so that the engine does not purposely slow down the car (or lock the rear tires on a track). Not the same thing.

Agree. On my Buell track bike I had the race PCM and it tuned out all engine breaking, downshifting essentially did nothing to slow the bike, to ensure it wouldn't upset the bike on decel, coupled with slipper clutch, which is also doing the same thing.

To me downshifting of course isn't used for braking, and I do practice heel-toe on the street when I don't have cars all around me, but at times for fun I do downshift & just listen to the popping on both my play cars, like on one of my bikes I sometimes shift up & down blipping the throttle like it's 1985, silly but it's for the fun. Like fish tailing for fun & carrying a drift, etc., not exactly great technique, but fun. I don't necessarily think someone is lame just for a downshift, they might be like me & just being goofy or having fun, but if you're doing it to brake & think of it as a technique, uhhh, then yea. But I say have fun but try not to develop bad habits.