Eagle Rods

[EllowViper]

Well, Had the issue with bending a stock rod on my "R&D" 2.8 Kenne Bell set-up and after having all the rods checked, my suspicions were verified that I had three additional rods that were bent. I guess I'm running right at the limits of the stock rods with the 2.8 upgrade. Heads-up if you are heading down that path. So out comes the crank for fitting with some Eagle rods with full floating wrist pins and the L19 265,000 PSI cap screws. According to Eagle, these rods should support over 1100 hp. Also, my shop tells me it appears the engine is getting a lot of heat in the cylinders based on some scuffing on the piston skirts. No surprise there given the boost and cylinder loading. I will live with that and maybe run a bit more than the current .005 piston to cylinder clearance if I'm getting excessive expansion. I think billet mains are going to be in the mix now as well. Just a lot of down time going through all this, but its still a lot of fun. Add the custom cam I'm getting and I see more potential breakage in my future. Its is interesting to see how the weak link in the equation moves around based on what changes one makes to the car.

 

[RobZilla]

Honestly after following your updates, as this loooong project has been going on, it appears that you should have just opted for a TT and engine build from the get go. IMO

 

[Russ M]

I tried giving you advice before you just shot me down, will try one more time hopefully this time you listen.

The reason your rods are bending is not limitations of hp, there are many vipers out there making far more power than yours. The problem is detonation, it damages everything including your rods.

I know you are an engineer etc, etc... But tuning a car is an art form, and if done incorrectly will without a doubt result in your situation. After you get your motor sorted hire a tuner, and I am not talking about a shop just a tuner should be no more than $500 or so and get it done right.

If you plan on staying with the blower you don't need to do all that stuff to the motor. You will never see more than 8-900hp at the crank on that type of blower. With the eagle rods, a good set of pistons there is nothing more you will need for your motor to be good for 1200hp at the crank.

 

[99 R/T 10]

What Russ is saying is true. Detonation can cause the problems you encountered. I still thiink you can do the tuning yourself, but maybe if you get up with Larry Macedo? Orlando area, 407-323-8191.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

The Eagles should be a nice upgrade along with your Diamonds.

As usual, I don't fully agree with Russm. I don't think there is really any proof that detonation caused this. But maybe starting off slower with the tuning will be a good thing. You have learned your lesson and I think your procession from here will be more cautious.

I wouldn't get billet mains just yet. That is a little overkill for your goals.
Get a good balance done on the motor and have the cylinders honed.

good luck with the rest of this Eric
you know I'm pulling for you

 

[plumcrazy]

those "might as wells" kill you .... been there, done that.

the downtime was the worst part of it for me

keep us posted on the progress.

 

[EllowViper]

I will eat crow when served...but don't think its on the menu just yet. I have stock rods to go back in but that is pointless IMO at this point. Yes and no on the detonation. Well aware of those symptoms/conditions. Pistons, bearings, rings, lands showed NO SIGNS of detonation or detonation related abnormalities and all underwent mesurement & analysis at the engine lab and came out fine. Timing was not that aggresive anyways. I understand most of the sentiments and posts/comments on this thread but I still say unless you are riding shotgun, you have no insights into this incident specifically. And I do appreciate the comments and insights otherwise I would not have contributed to the forum and just minded my own business. I would like to hear from someone that had bent rods and see what the specific situation was that contributed to their situation. If everyone says "detonation" I will shut my mouth and move on...but I don't think that's the top contributor. SO what are the max limits on the stock rods anyways? I was lead to believe around 800hp at the crank. At any rate, the bearings were fine and not smashed into the journals from being pounded by detonation. You can tell pretty quickly if an engine has been experiencing recurring detonation and yes it can happen on a single revolution too. So I don't/won't rule it out since with this blower/set-up there are many things complicating the tuning. But at the time, the only thing fundamentally different than a previously well tuned 10 PSI system were the introduction of different injectors and more boost. Thanks for the recommendations on the billet mains. I was waffling back and forth on those since I have not heard of any issues regarding the mains. Also for what its worth, with the 2.8, belt wear was much more evident with belt dust pretty solid on the timing chain cover. I keep things pretty clean so I was pretty surprised to see the amount of dust. Larry Macedo and I have talked over the years and he has always offered to assist with tuning. So I always retain the right to "phone a friend" so to speak. I just prefer to get things sorted out before arriving at a tuner. I expect them to do the final polishing (if there is anything left to squeeze out) and we have all read about some of those Tuner experiences as well.

 

[Russ M]

One of the vipers we just finished for another member on this board makes 830rwhp and 940torque on a completely stock motor, valve covers have never been off.

Saying he drives it like he stole it would be an understatement. So I would say they are at least good for 1000hp at the crank. There are a few people that have claimed some serious hp out of the stock motor, but odds are that they dyno queens.

Bottlefed,

Are you saying that detonation will not damage rods?

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Bottlefed,

Are you saying that detonation will not damage rods?

where are you getting even the slightest bit of implication that I said detonation cannot cause a bent rod?
this is exactly what I said:

I don't think there is really any proof that detonation caused this.

where is your proof that detonation bent ellow's rods?
there is none...
none on his plugs, bearings, or rings

and where do I say that it is impossible to bend a rod with detonation in general?

 

[EllowViper]

I'm curious as to the impact upwards of 800-1000 ft lbs of torque at say 2000 RPM has on the situation. NA builds may get great numbers, but they built it in a linear fashion gradually over an increasing RPM band and not with the POW RIGHT NOW torque like a ROE system does. Going from idle to over 800+ ft pds of torque in an instant has to be a contributing factor...and that was basically the situation I was in at the time if memory serves me. Gradual application of torque and instantanious application of torque are completely different animals and I'm not sure anyone has studied that per se in these engines. Thoughts anyone?

 

[plumcrazy]

when my engine blew, the engine guy said my cylinders were "bowed out" from all the nitrous i ran. (856rwtq), said its a very common problem on nitrous cars and diesel engines.

 

[treesnake]

"Might as well...." go through the heads too.




"while you're in there..."





Good luck...

 

[Russ M]

where are you getting even the slightest bit of implication that I said detonation cannot cause a bent rod?
this is exactly what I said:

where is your proof that detonation bent ellow's rods?
there is none...
none on his plugs, bearings, or rings

and where do I say that it is impossible to bend a rod with detonation in general?

Ellow him self says the cylinder walls are being damaged by the pistons due to heat. Where do you think this extreme heat is coming from?

Personally I would love to see some hi definition pictures of the engine parts like pistons/spark plugs/bearings/cylinder walls.

There are very few things that can hurt a motor like he describes, hydro lock, detonation, too much power.

We can rule out too much power, on a ROE alone maybe if he put a 400shot of nitrous on top of it then it can make 1000hp.

And unless he tells me that the cylinder heads were cracked and leaking coolant, or the head gaskets were leaking we can rule out hydro lock.

So what are we left with? Will give you only 1 guess.

And I am betting that if we get to see pictures of the pistons/spark plugs in hi def I will show you signs of the detonation.

 

[Red Snake]

We can rule out too much power, on a ROE alone maybe if he put a 400shot of nitrous on top of it then it can make 1000hp.

FYI, you can hit 1000 hp with a lot less than a 400 shot with the Roe an 10 pounds of boost.

 

[RTTTTed]

1,000hp at the crank isn't very much. My 2000ACR with Paxton put down 802rwhp and it's never had the valve cover removed. Not bad for a cream puff? The Paxton's 600rwhp is only for a moment when the engine is really spinning and that's why a creampuff can make the big hp with either a Paxton or Turbos.

With the Roe building 800rwtq at 2,000rpm is comparable to the TT or Paxton making 1600hp at 4500rpms. That's the reason a 700rwhp Roe will run with a 900rwhp Paxton or TT at the track.

I am always careful to apply power slowly at low rpms with the Roe. The Paxton doesn't make any power until the rpms come up so the Paxton is easy on the engine compared to the Roe.

As Phil/Plum said, the Nitrous is also a serious problem because it's like a Roe in that it produces full power instantly, even at idle. Hitting the Nitous at idle and low rpms was one of the reasons that Nitrous got sych a bad reputation for reliability.

Big powered Nitrous systems run proggessive and several stages so that the engine can be spinning at higher rpms and last while making huge power.

My educated opinion is that the blower overpowered the rods at low rpm. I would also recommend that if the engine is out and the block is going to the shop - do the mains. If you don't instal billet mains, instal the ARP studs. The studs would probably work out OK .

Ted

 

[EllowViper]

Show me a turbo car putting 15 PSI out at 1500 RPM and how that works out for the rods...Like I said, I'd like to see some data from the "tuners" out there regarding their experiences tuning something that builds boost like this. Related issue; I don't think the VEC can respond fast enough pulling timing down low when boost and RPM are ramping up so fast. Even Sean gets out ahead of the timing curve by leading the MAP and starting to pull timing at around 14 inches of vacuum. By the time the MAP is in boost, the VEC has already tried to pull significant timing just to keep up. No way to start pulling timing once you actually get into boost...you are already playing catch-up. In my case that day, I don't think the VEC could pull timing off idle fast enough for how the boost came on. From 16 inches of vacuum to 15 PSI of boost in under a second (estimate) is pretty ambitious. In hindsight, probably a bit of an oversight on my part. SCT and/or AEM can assumably handle this better than a piggy back system. Be interesting to compare side by side. Nonetheless, I think a discussion regarding how torque comes on so fast is an issue that hasn't been kicked around that much. The linear forces are almost in the diesel engine domain.

 

[Russ M]

Ellow,

Any decent setup turbo viper is going to make much more torque than your Roe, not sure about the very low end but when their boost starts coming on its all torque.

An AEM wont have to pull anything timing wise because unlike a piggyback unit it does not intercept anything and alter it, it knows exactly what it needs to do when the time comes.

 

[RTTTTed]

You must be registered for see images

Dyno graph is a 8psi Roe Racing TT I believe. You'll notice that the torque climbs to 3200 and 4,000 rpm peaks, not 2,000rpm as does the Twin Screw supercharger. Completely different toque curve than the supercharger system.

 

[Joseph Dell]

Show me a turbo car putting 15 PSI out at 1500 RPM and how that works out for the rods...Like I said, I'd like to see some data from the "tuners" out there regarding their experiences tuning something that builds boost like this. Related issue; I don't think the VEC can respond fast enough pulling timing down low when boost and RPM are ramping up so fast. Even Sean gets out ahead of the timing curve by leading the MAP and starting to pull timing at around 14 inches of vacuum. By the time the MAP is in boost, the VEC has already tried to pull significant timing just to keep up. No way to start pulling timing once you actually get into boost...you are already playing catch-up. In my case that day, I don't think the VEC could pull timing off idle fast enough for how the boost came on. From 16 inches of vacuum to 15 PSI of boost in under a second (estimate) is pretty ambitious. In hindsight, probably a bit of an oversight on my part. SCT and/or AEM can assumably handle this better than a piggy back system. Be interesting to compare side by side. Nonetheless, I think a discussion regarding how torque comes on so fast is an issue that hasn't been kicked around that much. The linear forces are almost in the diesel engine domain.

In the early days of viper turbo set-ups, the problem wasn't that the rods would break (as they are plenty strong). The problem was that the 'shock' to the system would cause the crank to walk on the mains. That was a bigger problem. The ROE hitting so hard it breaks the rods... I don't buy it. I've twisted my share of rods and I don't see the ROE doing it. Sorry.

I know i'm not a 'tuner' but i play one on TV.

back to the original topic at hand, the Eagle rods are a nice rod. They aren't super-top-of-the-line, but they'll work nicely.

Good luck!

Joseph

 

[EllowViper]

Thanks JD. Valued advice from the burning bush. Rods were bent at the top about an inch below the little end. Sort of curved inward. Noticeable to the eye thus my suspicions. The one rod that blew the head gasket was curved like an "S" from the top to the bottom....compression related (detonation or detonation induced by forces otherwise). Now one thing that concerned me last year when this was assembled was that it appears the shop heated the little ends of the rods to assist with pressing the wrist pins on. I thought that strange since the little end has color distortion almost like flame tempering a piece of iron. All the interference rods I've installed I've heated the little end in oil and left the wrist pin in the freezer overnight. Slips right in but you have to be fast, exact, and only get one shot before expansion sets in. If the shop weakened the rod by heating (which IMO I haven't ruled out) then that would explain some of this bending just below the little end. I'd like to know the technique others use to press wrist pins into these stock rods before I question the shop. Yes the drama continues but I got nothing else to do right now!!

 

[HollywoodGTS]

Let's see some pics of the carnage.

 

[fe4snake]

EllowViper

Have you looked into the K-1 rods by Carillo/Wiseco. I'm in the process of a build with my motor and for the money these rods can not be beat. I believe that they are rated for 1,200 hp.





http://www.campbellenterprises.com/parts.php?type=search&query=K1dh6123anlb10a

 

[RTTTTed]

If rods are rated at hp then what's their hp rating for the stock rods? 450? Or are the aftermarket rods rated as being more than twice as strong as stock arriving at the 1100hp numbers?

Only rod I ever bent was a rod I debeamed, polished and double shot peened in an engine that ran out of gas on a 350hp Nitrous run. Melted the piston nearly off the rod and the small end was turned nearly 90 degrees inside the piston. It was S'd as well. I am amazed that you bent 3 rods.

 

[99 R/T 10]

EllowViper

Have you looked into the K-1 rods by Carillo/Wiseco. I'm in the process of a build with my motor and for the money these rods can not be beat. I believe that they are rated for 1,200 hp.

Nope they aren't. I tried to pin them down on a HP rating and I got a bunch of info about how detonation could damage the rod regardless of HP. I did buy a set though. Be prepared, they are made in China....................

 

[RTTTTed]

I bought a set of Big bore Wiseco pistons for my snowmobile. Ring pins fell out on two and ruined the pistons and barrels in under 600miles. I pulled the third piston's ring pin out with my fingers. Warranty? Wiseco ]said I screwed up the pins before instal. Also bought a Wiseco for my Suzuki race dirt bike and had the same problem within 23 miles. Wiseco gave me the same excuse. They wouldn't evern look at them before deciding. I'll never buy another product with Wiseco name. No warranty coverage and all 4 slugs I bought from them failed. 2 stroke engines are easy to put together and I'd be impressed to find anyone other than a first timer that could screw up the pistons.

 

[EllowViper]

For whatever reason, Wiseco pistons have a great following in the snowmobile industry. They were all we used almost with a cult-like following. I was never impressed but the customers didn't care or know anything so off we went with what was available. I too burned-up MANY wiseco pistons over the years and they are indeed very easy to swap out. Tended to like to "loose" their spiral locks and I had many cylinders scored with a nice round groove from those locks riding out. Getting crap in the jets were always an issue back in the day and running lean was always a killer on these engines. The average JOE had no clue however and that was a nice business to have if there was snow on the ground.

 

[Jerome Sparich]

For whatever reason, Wiseco pistons have a great following in the snowmobile industry. They were all we used almost with a cult-like following. I was never impressed but the customers didn't care or know anything so off we went with what was available. I too burned-up MANY wiseco pistons over the years and they are indeed very easy to swap out. Tended to like to "loose" their spiral locks and I had many cylinders scored with a nice round groove from those locks riding out. Getting crap in the jets were always an issue back in the day and running lean was always a killer on these engines. The average JOE had no clue however and that was a nice business to have if there was snow on the ground.

There is where knowing what you are looking at helps greatly. One should know if the "spiral locks" are in, and in properly. Either they are, or are not.

Return pm to ya Ellow.

 

[EllowViper]

Great PM. Thanks!! This was back in the 1980's and I recall one of the mechanics "Eugene" installing the spiral locks clockwise (or counter...can't recall) and the instructions stated to specifically install the other way. I couldn't believe it would make a difference, but I guess it did since the install directions specifically called out the procedure. Even after all these years I remember that fact since it was such a bizzare issue. Absolutely could not reuse and I think some of the guys did. Been so many years ago...but a Polaris triple turning 9000+ RPM could frag a piston pretty quickly.

 

[KNG SNKE]

Interesting thread but the only thing I can read is you need to get it running again for when you are local . Good luck.

 

[EllowViper]

I can now see why some folks just drop their problems off to a tuner and let them have at it. There is a price to be paid for not having to deal with incorrect parts and related delays. But I know shops have these issues as well. Just getting frustrated, that's all. Got my new Eagle rods today from Summitt and guess what...the wrist pin size is wrong. The rods are bushed for .984 wrist pins and my 01 uses .945. So much for compatability across the years. The spare '96 rod I have laying around uses the .984 wrist pin however. Wish the retailers knew this. If I was a guessing man, I'd guess the Creampuff motors use the .945 size. Just an assumption. So those will go back to Summitt (after waiting two months for them). What a PITA. Anyone know of an Eagle-style rod that you can get with a .945 full floating wrist pin? I contacted K1 just a few minutes ago since they appear to machine their own cores. Thought I was seeing the light at the end of the tunnel but I guess not.