TedK
Enthusiast
Oh its comming, just later than expected. Roadster #1 is already on its way to USA, the car mags have now driven them, and they have full FMVSS certification from the Feds.
EPA to Automakers: The Horsepower War is Over.
- Thread starter 2002_Viper_GTS_ACR
- Start date
DEKE01
Viper Owner
OP
OP
2002_Viper_GTS_ACR
Enthusiast
I have a recipe for Spotted Owl that you might like to try.
I hear it tastes like chicken?
DEKE01
Viper Owner
I hear it tastes like chicken?
Yer crazy, Spotted owl, when properly prepared tastes much more like Panda
Zan186
Viper Owner
Well there is always the positive side to look at. If the requirements cause auto manufacturers to make less sports cars, the demand for them will go up. Used sports cars then will also go up in price.
OP
OP
2002_Viper_GTS_ACR
Enthusiast
Ahhhh...much like the preparation of Courgar, Jaguar and Leopard Meat is universally delicious if prepared just the right way!! Lest we not forget how striking their coats can be for Shoes, Boots, coats, and even steering wheel wraps and Gear shift wraps.... ooohh ohhh.. seats... I'm going to look into that.
I'll see if I can order a 4 cyclinder with Jaguar fur seats.
OP
OP
2002_Viper_GTS_ACR
Enthusiast
WAIT a minute.. did I just assist in the derailing of my own thread....
Back to the facts... we got plenty of time for a few more viper generations, I dont believe the end is near now!!
Jon
Back to the facts... we got plenty of time for a few more viper generations, I dont believe the end is near now!!
Jon
sween
Enthusiast
this is just too bad . The sad thing is, is that since this new law everything is going to change. for example the hemi and they already said that the corvette is going to get a small engine and a weight decrease so that it can have the same hp/weight ratio. Well we still have 12 more years till it takes effect.
. The sad thing is, is that since this new law everything is going to change. for example the hemi and they already said that the corvette is going to get a small engine and a weight decrease so that it can have the same hp/weight ratio. Well we still have 12 more years till it takes effect.chimazo
Enthusiast
Actually, we DON'T have 12 years until it takes effect. It will be implemented over that time-span, which means you will be seeing the effects sooner rather than later. Automakers must meet the fleet average of 35mpg by 2020, so it's not like they're going to wait another decade before they get on the ball.
Short term pain for long term gain my friends.
Had the Oil Embrago not hit in the early 70s, we probably would not have the kinds of cars we did in the late 80s, early 90s. Had the excitement of those 1990s cars not done so well (relatively speaking for the time period), we would not have the cars in the 2000s. Personally, this game is NOT one step forward, two steps back, but more like one step back and two steps forward. Sure it will **** for a few years while the manufacturers find their place again, BUT they will find their place.
As long as there are people, we will always have excitement generated for those that want it. There will always be sports cars, just some generations much better than others. Anyone remember when you could buy a 1971 HemiCuda hardtop for $6,000 in the 70s? I do! Remember when you could buy just about any used muscle car in the 70s and early 80s for cheap? I do! Same will happen for the Vipers.
Ask anyone back in the early 2000s that the factory would be selling cars with 600+ hp that could get 18-25 mpg on the highway almost a decade later? They would have said that you are nuts. It will never happen.
We have to take the steps back to move further forward. I have my 06' Viper Coupe, my 95' Saleen S351R Speedster, my 69' Mustang Mach 1, my 07' Jeep SRT8 (daily) and my 04' Porsche Cayenne Turbo (wife's daily). That will hold me over until they work out some reliable new technology proven out, in place and improved upon. However even if they do, my 06' Viper Coupe, my 95' Saleen S351R Speedster, and my 69' Mustang Mach 1 will always be worth something because they are collectors items and will continue to be. They will survice regardless of where the technology goes. Technology can change just like it has from 50s/60s muscle cars to today, but collectors items will always be collectors items and in demand.
The pressure will always be on halo cars. It is like a celebrity, so it better be able to handle the heat and *** shots, etc. However if the public is pushing for "green this" and "green that" performance is NOT going to be the halo car. It will be green. It will be the whatever car that can get 38.5 mpg, 10% extra for good measure. Celebrities fall out of fashion and so do halo cars. Nobody can ever take away form the Viper and what it did for Dodge at a much needed time. Like an aging rockstar, let it retire a champion, while everyone remembers it on top. I would sooner see the Viper retired for awhile rather than go down in power, performance and excitement. The Vette, can do this, it has 50+ years of history. So can the Mustang. Both have economy base model cars so to speak. The Viper is the base car and the performance car all in one. It can not do this.
The new 35 mpg technology and all the effects it will have on the industry will will have the greatest affects on the masses anyway for the most part. This will be tractor trucks, all trucks in general and high mileage vehicles and multi-passenger cars. Sports cars may fall out of favor for a while, just like in the 70s and early 80s, BUT this will return and when it returns future cars will make the cars like today perform like turtles. A 426 HemiCuda has over 500HP, in reality, but an 03-06 Viper will wax it's behind in every category and is much easier to live with. Personally I would sacrifice what we have now for even better in the future. That is the whole principle.
That said, people will still want the collector cars of today and the Viper, Vette, etc. will always be in that category. Low production items are going to hold their value the best.
I say, buy what excites you now and enjoy it. Don't be the 1971 HemiCuda guy who dumped his car in 1977 for $6,000. Everything is a cycle, no matter what happens or how bleak it may look in the future for combustion vehicles. Remember, even Dinosaur bones are worth a ton today.
Change is coming and as much as we want to stick our heads in the sand or sit there rocking with hands over our ears saying "can't hear you", it is here. When they get new technology worked out and refined to where it offers the perfomance and excitement of todays cars, then I will embace it in my personal life, fully embrace it. At that point, I will sell my 06' Viper at Walmart Auctions or whatever the giant B-J Auction house will be in the future and use a portion of my $0.5M from my car sale to buy the best available at that time.
Who knows, they might be bringing BACK the Viper in 2020 with warp drive. If it looked **** and ran like a ***** ape, while getting 35+ mpg, you bet your ass I would buy it. Who can say no to warp drive? Not me!
Had the Oil Embrago not hit in the early 70s, we probably would not have the kinds of cars we did in the late 80s, early 90s. Had the excitement of those 1990s cars not done so well (relatively speaking for the time period), we would not have the cars in the 2000s. Personally, this game is NOT one step forward, two steps back, but more like one step back and two steps forward. Sure it will **** for a few years while the manufacturers find their place again, BUT they will find their place.
As long as there are people, we will always have excitement generated for those that want it. There will always be sports cars, just some generations much better than others. Anyone remember when you could buy a 1971 HemiCuda hardtop for $6,000 in the 70s? I do! Remember when you could buy just about any used muscle car in the 70s and early 80s for cheap? I do! Same will happen for the Vipers.
Ask anyone back in the early 2000s that the factory would be selling cars with 600+ hp that could get 18-25 mpg on the highway almost a decade later? They would have said that you are nuts. It will never happen.
We have to take the steps back to move further forward. I have my 06' Viper Coupe, my 95' Saleen S351R Speedster, my 69' Mustang Mach 1, my 07' Jeep SRT8 (daily) and my 04' Porsche Cayenne Turbo (wife's daily). That will hold me over until they work out some reliable new technology proven out, in place and improved upon. However even if they do, my 06' Viper Coupe, my 95' Saleen S351R Speedster, and my 69' Mustang Mach 1 will always be worth something because they are collectors items and will continue to be. They will survice regardless of where the technology goes. Technology can change just like it has from 50s/60s muscle cars to today, but collectors items will always be collectors items and in demand.
The pressure will always be on halo cars. It is like a celebrity, so it better be able to handle the heat and *** shots, etc. However if the public is pushing for "green this" and "green that" performance is NOT going to be the halo car. It will be green. It will be the whatever car that can get 38.5 mpg, 10% extra for good measure. Celebrities fall out of fashion and so do halo cars. Nobody can ever take away form the Viper and what it did for Dodge at a much needed time. Like an aging rockstar, let it retire a champion, while everyone remembers it on top. I would sooner see the Viper retired for awhile rather than go down in power, performance and excitement. The Vette, can do this, it has 50+ years of history. So can the Mustang. Both have economy base model cars so to speak. The Viper is the base car and the performance car all in one. It can not do this.
The new 35 mpg technology and all the effects it will have on the industry will will have the greatest affects on the masses anyway for the most part. This will be tractor trucks, all trucks in general and high mileage vehicles and multi-passenger cars. Sports cars may fall out of favor for a while, just like in the 70s and early 80s, BUT this will return and when it returns future cars will make the cars like today perform like turtles. A 426 HemiCuda has over 500HP, in reality, but an 03-06 Viper will wax it's behind in every category and is much easier to live with. Personally I would sacrifice what we have now for even better in the future. That is the whole principle.
That said, people will still want the collector cars of today and the Viper, Vette, etc. will always be in that category. Low production items are going to hold their value the best.
I say, buy what excites you now and enjoy it. Don't be the 1971 HemiCuda guy who dumped his car in 1977 for $6,000. Everything is a cycle, no matter what happens or how bleak it may look in the future for combustion vehicles. Remember, even Dinosaur bones are worth a ton today.
Change is coming and as much as we want to stick our heads in the sand or sit there rocking with hands over our ears saying "can't hear you", it is here. When they get new technology worked out and refined to where it offers the perfomance and excitement of todays cars, then I will embace it in my personal life, fully embrace it. At that point, I will sell my 06' Viper at Walmart Auctions or whatever the giant B-J Auction house will be in the future and use a portion of my $0.5M from my car sale to buy the best available at that time.
Who knows, they might be bringing BACK the Viper in 2020 with warp drive. If it looked **** and ran like a ***** ape, while getting 35+ mpg, you bet your ass I would buy it. Who can say no to warp drive? Not me!
99 R/T 10
Enthusiast
Good write up, but how collectable will any car be if the pumps run dry? I watched a show called "Crude" on TLC the other day(I know, I know tree hugging station), but one point they were making with all the older scientist and experts that were there in the oil companies since 1948 when the oil boom really kicked, is that we have peaked with oil production. They were saying with India and China increasing it's consuption, we will be out of oil in the next 25 years +/- 5 years. Then what? I know Brazil is completely off oil using surgar as a fuel substitute. We are trying to use corn. Apparently sugar is mcuh better because it somehow produces more energy. I don't know for sure, but I don't think our cars will work well using either corn or sugar.
99 RT/10;
The problem is the mis-information. I happen to like TLC and have watched neat programs like "Future Car", etc. out of Australia which is like engineering gone wild. I am a degreed electrical engineer and happen to get a rise out of the technology. However as I age, I do not get as much a rise out of the engineering since I pulled myself out of the engineering and actually started to run the business from a financial point of view.
Despite what the huggers say, the Oil Reserves are very huge and the worldwide supply is in the hundreds of years. Not all of it is accessible right now. Some of those resources are extremely remote, some are very expensive to mine, (Oil Sands (Alberta/Saskatchewan/Canada) or Oil Shale Deposits Colorado, etc.) These were never feasible at $50 Oil but $100 Oil they are very profitable. There are other major reserves being discovered each day. Brazil's latest has hit the world reserve list for size. It WILL run out, but it will not be in my lifetime, or the lifetime of your great-grand kids. Interesting thing is "so what"? If it is that bad, why do we care if it is no longer plentiful and all used up.
The Oil Reserves are being controlled (despite what others say) so that we come on side with our % foreign dependancy goals. It is a very political topic. We have peaked with Oil production because of the "back-yard" syndrome. Not in my back yard, means refine it where? Also some of the refineries are so old that they have outlived their useful life. Retrofit is way, way more costly than greenfield build, but build new where? Chicken and egg thing.
I happen to know where a lot of the Oil & Gas productions are because my company has been working for them for over 36 years now. The biggest problem with the industry happens to be becuase of an aging Oil & Gas industry. You have a ton of the Oil & Gas technical staff retiring and being replaced by fresh grads. I am sorry, these are good kids with a lot of talent and promise but you simply can not replace a 30 year experienced employee with a 1 year experienced employee.
No I am not an old timer as I am only 35 years old, but I see and hear this every day and out of the 25 major Oil & Gas companies my services company services, it is the single biggest common complaint they have.
Like I said, the well WILL eventually run dry but it will not be for a very, very, very long time.
Brazil may appear to be off Oil, but that is a misconception too. They have a ton of offshore platform and FPSO production Oil & Gas production. They are still a major producer and user. The Ethanol from sugar cane is increasing mainly for export to the US. The US used almost $35M barrels of Ethanol last year but only produced $27M barrels. The rest had to be imported from places like Brazil. It sounds good that they are increasing and getting their %dependancy on side but the ratios are misleading.
ANY energy production will have reprocussions, unless it is Fusion. There is always a biproduct and waste, except Fusion. Hyrodgen is just a water bi-product. buty even that is not truly as they say. We can come up with Hybrid fuels that use a little Ethanol, etc. but 100% Ethanol, that really scares me.
What will that do for the food supply, and everything that comes from that base product? If everyone feels that fast rising costs of milk, eggs, beef, and all these base ingredients is rising because of this or that. It comes soley from the fact that it is bigger money for farmers to produce Ethanol for gas consumption versus product for food or feedstock.
What happens when we **** all the nutrients from that soils to produce Ethanol? Farmers don't "fallow" land anymore. Oragnic ois still a very small %. They will hit these crops with everything possible to get the greatest yields possible and not care about what they are putting on becuase it is not for food consumption. I wouldn't want to look at those soil contaminant levels in 15 years. Once that soil is bad, it is bad forever.
All very hot topics. Big Oil is not the only culprit for where we are at. It just happens to be the celebrity, halo that is taking the lions share of the blame.
Okay, I am getting off my soap box now, but will leave you with this. Someone want to look at the global impact of burning the rainforest and all the clearing/burnign for farm land in Brazil. Do the energy balance on Brazil and despite their public push to show how "green" they are becoming, the numbers speak for themselves. It is truly a different shade of green, in fact it might look like a black-green.
The problem is the mis-information. I happen to like TLC and have watched neat programs like "Future Car", etc. out of Australia which is like engineering gone wild.
I am a degreed electrical engineer and happen to get a rise out of the technology. However as I age, I do not get as much a rise out of the engineering since I pulled myself out of the engineering and actually started to run the business from a financial point of view.Despite what the huggers say, the Oil Reserves are very huge and the worldwide supply is in the hundreds of years. Not all of it is accessible right now. Some of those resources are extremely remote, some are very expensive to mine, (Oil Sands (Alberta/Saskatchewan/Canada) or Oil Shale Deposits Colorado, etc.) These were never feasible at $50 Oil but $100 Oil they are very profitable. There are other major reserves being discovered each day. Brazil's latest has hit the world reserve list for size. It WILL run out, but it will not be in my lifetime, or the lifetime of your great-grand kids. Interesting thing is "so what"? If it is that bad, why do we care if it is no longer plentiful and all used up.
The Oil Reserves are being controlled (despite what others say) so that we come on side with our % foreign dependancy goals. It is a very political topic. We have peaked with Oil production because of the "back-yard" syndrome. Not in my back yard, means refine it where? Also some of the refineries are so old that they have outlived their useful life. Retrofit is way, way more costly than greenfield build, but build new where? Chicken and egg thing.
I happen to know where a lot of the Oil & Gas productions are because my company has been working for them for over 36 years now. The biggest problem with the industry happens to be becuase of an aging Oil & Gas industry. You have a ton of the Oil & Gas technical staff retiring and being replaced by fresh grads. I am sorry, these are good kids with a lot of talent and promise but you simply can not replace a 30 year experienced employee with a 1 year experienced employee.
No I am not an old timer as I am only 35 years old, but I see and hear this every day and out of the 25 major Oil & Gas companies my services company services, it is the single biggest common complaint they have.
Like I said, the well WILL eventually run dry but it will not be for a very, very, very long time.
Brazil may appear to be off Oil, but that is a misconception too. They have a ton of offshore platform and FPSO production Oil & Gas production. They are still a major producer and user. The Ethanol from sugar cane is increasing mainly for export to the US. The US used almost $35M barrels of Ethanol last year but only produced $27M barrels. The rest had to be imported from places like Brazil. It sounds good that they are increasing and getting their %dependancy on side but the ratios are misleading.
ANY energy production will have reprocussions, unless it is Fusion. There is always a biproduct and waste, except Fusion. Hyrodgen is just a water bi-product. buty even that is not truly as they say. We can come up with Hybrid fuels that use a little Ethanol, etc. but 100% Ethanol, that really scares me.
What will that do for the food supply, and everything that comes from that base product? If everyone feels that fast rising costs of milk, eggs, beef, and all these base ingredients is rising because of this or that. It comes soley from the fact that it is bigger money for farmers to produce Ethanol for gas consumption versus product for food or feedstock.
What happens when we **** all the nutrients from that soils to produce Ethanol? Farmers don't "fallow" land anymore. Oragnic ois still a very small %. They will hit these crops with everything possible to get the greatest yields possible and not care about what they are putting on becuase it is not for food consumption. I wouldn't want to look at those soil contaminant levels in 15 years. Once that soil is bad, it is bad forever.
All very hot topics. Big Oil is not the only culprit for where we are at. It just happens to be the celebrity, halo that is taking the lions share of the blame.
Okay, I am getting off my soap box now, but will leave you with this. Someone want to look at the global impact of burning the rainforest and all the clearing/burnign for farm land in Brazil. Do the energy balance on Brazil and despite their public push to show how "green" they are becoming, the numbers speak for themselves. It is truly a different shade of green, in fact it might look like a black-green.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
I'm 47 and I've heard that bs all my life. No worries. If we ran out of oil tomorrow we'd have alternative sources coming out our ears by Monday morning.
Dan to EPA: Please go back to hugging trees, preferably in a remote wilderness with many large hungry animals with big teeth.
Thank you for your attenton to this matter.
Sooner or later the EPA is going to sticks its nose in the wrong guys car.... and hes going to run it over.
Thank you for your attenton to this matter.
Sooner or later the EPA is going to sticks its nose in the wrong guys car.... and hes going to run it over.
Y2K5SRT
Enthusiast
Yep, let's let some of the more vocal folks determine the outcome of cars like the Viper when even the masses really don't seem to care that much and aren't doing anything even if they do...
"Just a slim majority of Americans consider global warming "a very serious problem," despite an avalanche of publicity on the issue, and many aren't even taking the "green" actions they support, a nationwide survey suggested today."
Actions don't match 'green' attitudes - USATODAY.com
So let's just see how many cars Margo Oge of the EPA helps Dodge sell vs. the thousands of business leaders, celebrities, Dave, and myself that drive Vipers as an enjoyable weekend getaway (track, show, or cruise). What is interesting is that not only does the Viper represent a pimple on a gnat's behind in the Chrysler fleet MPG average, but throw in the number of miles the average Viper sees in its lifetime and I will bet that overall it uses less fuel and pollutes less than just about any 4-****** the Big Three can muster.
The simple fact is that the Viper is still a halo car, is profitable, has minimal impact on fleet averages, and is the dream car of many a generation - including a lot of future car owners. So when Junior gets his license in five years, will he want a jellybean car from a generic Japanese lineup or will he want a jellybean car from a US company that happens to have a true exotic car in the mix?
But wait, there is more! Ready for the biggest irony of them all? Read this and be SURE to read the date at the top:
Auto Cafe Standards: Unsafe and Unwise at Any Level
That's right kiddies, the "Motor Vehicle Fuel Efficiency Act" (S. 279), introduced by Senator Richard Bryan, the Nevada Democrat, would increase the (then) current 27.5 mpg standard to approximately 34 mpg and then up to approximately 40 mpg. And when was this act introduced? One year BEFORE the first Vipers hit the streets!!
So to my friends in Detroit: You didn't worry too much about a US Senator back in 1991 and ended up inspiring whole generations of car owners - and continue to sell one helluva lot of other Chrysler products as a direct result. Surely you aren't going to shrink in the face of this lady's rhetoric and start stamping out low-cost generic hybrids are you? Because I hate to tell you this, but in the hybrid war you simply aren't going to win. The majority of people will choose an import over a US-produced car with similar characteristics based on preconceived (and often proven) notions of quality. Just ask Toyota after they took over as the number one manufacturer in the world over GM in 2007.
If you want to be a contender then continue to inspire with creative designs, bold muscle cars, and a stable of quality people movers as the supporting cast. It is truly what sets American car companies apart. You can't compete toe-to-toe based on fuel efficiency, as those other guys have a serious head start and you suffer from quality concerns that will take decades to overcome no matter how well your cars are built. Do what you do best and inspire people with truly incredible vehicles. Profitable halo vehicles that continue to sell despite getting almost no advertising whatsoever. Otherwise you will relegate yourself to the position of your former child, Plymouth. And that is one tomb you won't ever emerge from.
"Just a slim majority of Americans consider global warming "a very serious problem," despite an avalanche of publicity on the issue, and many aren't even taking the "green" actions they support, a nationwide survey suggested today."
Actions don't match 'green' attitudes - USATODAY.com
So let's just see how many cars Margo Oge of the EPA helps Dodge sell vs. the thousands of business leaders, celebrities, Dave, and myself that drive Vipers as an enjoyable weekend getaway (track, show, or cruise). What is interesting is that not only does the Viper represent a pimple on a gnat's behind in the Chrysler fleet MPG average, but throw in the number of miles the average Viper sees in its lifetime and I will bet that overall it uses less fuel and pollutes less than just about any 4-****** the Big Three can muster.
The simple fact is that the Viper is still a halo car, is profitable, has minimal impact on fleet averages, and is the dream car of many a generation - including a lot of future car owners. So when Junior gets his license in five years, will he want a jellybean car from a generic Japanese lineup or will he want a jellybean car from a US company that happens to have a true exotic car in the mix?
But wait, there is more! Ready for the biggest irony of them all? Read this and be SURE to read the date at the top:
Auto Cafe Standards: Unsafe and Unwise at Any Level
That's right kiddies, the "Motor Vehicle Fuel Efficiency Act" (S. 279), introduced by Senator Richard Bryan, the Nevada Democrat, would increase the (then) current 27.5 mpg standard to approximately 34 mpg and then up to approximately 40 mpg. And when was this act introduced? One year BEFORE the first Vipers hit the streets!!
So to my friends in Detroit: You didn't worry too much about a US Senator back in 1991 and ended up inspiring whole generations of car owners - and continue to sell one helluva lot of other Chrysler products as a direct result. Surely you aren't going to shrink in the face of this lady's rhetoric and start stamping out low-cost generic hybrids are you? Because I hate to tell you this, but in the hybrid war you simply aren't going to win. The majority of people will choose an import over a US-produced car with similar characteristics based on preconceived (and often proven) notions of quality. Just ask Toyota after they took over as the number one manufacturer in the world over GM in 2007.
If you want to be a contender then continue to inspire with creative designs, bold muscle cars, and a stable of quality people movers as the supporting cast. It is truly what sets American car companies apart. You can't compete toe-to-toe based on fuel efficiency, as those other guys have a serious head start and you suffer from quality concerns that will take decades to overcome no matter how well your cars are built. Do what you do best and inspire people with truly incredible vehicles. Profitable halo vehicles that continue to sell despite getting almost no advertising whatsoever. Otherwise you will relegate yourself to the position of your former child, Plymouth. And that is one tomb you won't ever emerge from.
And that brings us back to "Global warming". With serious ice storms all over North America and here in BC it's getting a lot colder each year with deaths from ice rain, floods, power failures, avalanches, and other cold weather related events, when are the 'real' ordinary people going to start complaining of 'green taxes' and start whining about 'Global Cooling'?
I could handle a colder winter if the summers were warmer, but the fact is that summers are colder as well. We've got 6" more snow here than what we had 11 years ago and that 'settled' snow is continueing to get deeper. All BC Ski Resorts are having their best snow season ever this year.
Seems like they're all a bundh of liars. The fuel shortage is just another lie to raise prices and increase taxes.
The politics are such a joke nowadays that it's OK to shot ****** on the sidewalk in Vancouver, but you'll get a fine for smoking a cigarette????? Smoking kills millions ... and alcohol is OK? Isn't life confusing?
You need a sense of humor to have a good life nowadays. With Politics, there's a joke every minute, laugh out loud!
Ted
I could handle a colder winter if the summers were warmer, but the fact is that summers are colder as well. We've got 6" more snow here than what we had 11 years ago and that 'settled' snow is continueing to get deeper. All BC Ski Resorts are having their best snow season ever this year.
Seems like they're all a bundh of liars. The fuel shortage is just another lie to raise prices and increase taxes.
The politics are such a joke nowadays that it's OK to shot ****** on the sidewalk in Vancouver, but you'll get a fine for smoking a cigarette????? Smoking kills millions ... and alcohol is OK? Isn't life confusing?
You need a sense of humor to have a good life nowadays. With Politics, there's a joke every minute, laugh out loud!
Ted
Personally I am more concerned about the incandescent light bulb being made illegal than any CAFE standards (which just incur a penalty for violations)
On the light bulb being illegal, I'm not kidding, stock up now, I am as I do not want a houseful of LEDs (in their current state) or CFLs.
borderfirereport.net
On the light bulb being illegal, I'm not kidding, stock up now, I am as I do not want a houseful of LEDs (in their current state) or CFLs.
borderfirereport.net
OP
OP
2002_Viper_GTS_ACR
Enthusiast
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