Excuse me, is your car on fire?

[PDCjonny]

Not exactly what you want to hear when sitting at a light.
Apparently, for no reason, after two years the Roe insulation around my cats decided they would become combustible. The material itself has apparently broken down and become flammable. I know, how come after a couple years?
Good question. See pics below. A LOT of smoke was billowing out of the underside and front and rear of the side sills, I nearly had a heart attack. It had a wierd plasticky smell. At first I thought somehow something (road debris etc) got somehow lodged in there agaist the hot pipes. But no, after having my wife meet me with some tools this is what I found. The wrap itself was burning up.

Excuse shiity camera phone pics.

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Needless to say I ripped the shiit off of both sides. Anyone else have this happen? By the way, there was nothing stuck in there or wedged inside. They are not wet. They are burnt.

 

[dave6666]

Dude! Important post. Someone needs to be sure that Sean & Co. sees that. I will sacrifice 100 bulls in sorrow of your fire...

 

[2001 GTS]

Are the stock cats still in there or have they been changed out?

Steve

 

[Scratch]

Any chance of an exhaust leak there? Same on both sides?

 

[plumcrazy]

mine looked the same only worse....i got rid of the ROE insulation for the most part. i just dont like it. and it helped rot out my HF cats

 

[dave6666]

I wonder if Sean will give you credit back on the insulation toward one of his handy fire extinguishers that he sells?!?

 

[PDCjonny]

They're Roe High Flo cats too.
No leaks anywhere I could see. Happened on both sides. No way from a leak.

 

[plumcrazy]

mine were rusted BAD. and same brand too.....

 

[klamathpro]

Call Sean Roe on Monday ASAP and tell him all the details. 1-866-ASK-SEAN.
He needs to know about this. They are constantly updating their products based on feedback. This is a hazard and it sounds like he needs to change the material to a higher tolerance or discontinue the product, especially since you are not the only one this happened to. If you don't tell him, he'll never know. He greatly appreciates feedback.

 

[DrDJ]

I'm taking my insulation off today as soon as it (the ambient temp) cools down... My side sills still get plenty hot, but I guess that they are cooler than stock (I have RT cats) because I haven't had the paint discolor yet.

DrDJ

 

[voi9]

I just had the heat insulate blanket installed over my Corsa cat back system. I hope I dont end up with the same scenario! I'm going to call The Wizard and see what his thoughta are.

 

[V10SpeedLuvr]

I've never heard anything good about any brand of exhaust insulation. Like Phil said, I think more times than not, it causes the exhaust pieces to rust. Get rid of your cats. My sidesills stay cool (lukewarm at worst) now no matter how hard or for how long I drive the car.

 

[Russ M]

I seriously don't know why you all bother with insulation and cats. There is a very simple solution, REMOVE THE CATS. They are the source for most of the heat issues with vipers, and once out make the car a joy to drive instead of making you feel like a muffin ready to be removed from the oven.

If you are that environment conscious then you are driving the wrong car, and a hybrid of some sort should be your ideal machine.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Just to correct the environment comment: removing cats is like driving at least 80-100 hybrids, not just one. And it precipitates all these goofy changes, like the current example of adding ethanol to gasoline. Let's see... higher food prices, higher beer prices, higher gasoline prices, your county becoming a non-attainment area and bumping state inspection costs up, gasoline shortages in areas requiring reformulated blends (hello, Chicago of a few years ago?) Hell yeah, let's cut out the cats!

Luckily for all of us that Dodge can't take the same attitude or we wouldn't have Vipers to drive at all. You're having an intellectual disconnect to automatically pit "environmentally conscious" against "Viper" since the clean air measurement isn't miles per gallon, it is emissions (grams) per mile. Use all the fuel you want, but it doesn't have to mean generating more pounds of stinky stuff out the exhaust.

Before you start the "tree-hugger" replies, I worked at one of the big oil companies for 20+ years and wouldn't describe myself as being green. But it did provide a bigger picture of what happens when 10's or 1000's of Russ-es take the local view.

ViperJon, sorry about your problem and I'm sure with the thousands of other Vipers out there someone has the right solution for you.

 

[PDCjonny]

Simple solution.
Unwrap the cats. To be honest, I never felt it made much difference after they were insulated. The cockpit went from extremely hot to just really really hot. Obviously not worth the risk after what happened. Plus, I always wondered what happened to the insulation after it got wet from washing the car. If you don't drive the car for days, the moisture just sits in there pressed up against the cats? That can't be good.

 

[2001 GTS]

I just put HF cats in (after having no cats) and the cats burned through my fiberglass sidesill, because the stock one got a hit on the front some something on the road.

I now have the Roe Insulation...what can I do for insulation because with no insulation it burns through!

Note: I sold my stock insulation because it wasn't needed

 

[Russ M]

Just to correct the environment comment: removing cats is like driving at least 80-100 hybrids, not just one. And it precipitates all these goofy changes, like the current example of adding ethanol to gasoline. Let's see... higher food prices, higher beer prices, higher gasoline prices, your county becoming a non-attainment area and bumping state inspection costs up, gasoline shortages in areas requiring reformulated blends (hello, Chicago of a few years ago?) Hell yeah, let's cut out the cats!

Luckily for all of us that Dodge can't take the same attitude or we wouldn't have Vipers to drive at all. You're having an intellectual disconnect to automatically pit "environmentally conscious" against "Viper" since the clean air measurement isn't miles per gallon, it is emissions (grams) per mile. Use all the fuel you want, but it doesn't have to mean generating more pounds of stinky stuff out the exhaust.

Before you start the "tree-hugger" replies, I worked at one of the big oil companies for 20+ years and wouldn't describe myself as being green. But it did provide a bigger picture of what happens when 10's or 1000's of Russ-es take the local view.

ViperJon, sorry about your problem and I'm sure with the thousands of other Vipers out there someone has the right solution for you.

Tom,

Please tell me how much more pollution gets released into the air without cats versus with cats.

While you are at it tell us just how much pollution a typical oil refinery releases when compared to every single viper ever built combined.

Lets not even get into all the old "collector" cars, or all the harleys or any other motor cycle out there.

 

[dave6666]

Just to correct the environment comment: removing cats is like driving at least 80-100 hybrids, not just one. And it precipitates all these goofy changes, like the current example of adding ethanol to gasoline. Let's see... higher food prices, higher beer prices, higher gasoline prices, your county becoming a non-attainment area and bumping state inspection costs up, gasoline shortages in areas requiring reformulated blends (hello, Chicago of a few years ago?) Hell yeah, let's cut out the cats!

Luckily for all of us that Dodge can't take the same attitude or we wouldn't have Vipers to drive at all. You're having an intellectual disconnect to automatically pit "environmentally conscious" against "Viper" since the clean air measurement isn't miles per gallon, it is emissions (grams) per mile. Use all the fuel you want, but it doesn't have to mean generating more pounds of stinky stuff out the exhaust.

Before you start the "tree-hugger" replies, I worked at one of the big oil companies for 20+ years and wouldn't describe myself as being green. But it did provide a bigger picture of what happens when 10's or 1000's of Russ-es take the local view.

ViperJon, sorry about your problem and I'm sure with the thousands of other Vipers out there someone has the right solution for you.

WHOA!!! Higher beer prices?!? I'm running 3 cats per side from here on out!!!

 

[AviP]

Tom,

Please tell me how much more pollution gets released into the air without cats versus with cats.

While you are at it tell us just how much pollution a typical oil refinery releases when compared to every single viper ever built combined.

Lets not even get into all the old "collector" cars, or all the harleys or any other motor cycle out there.

I'm with Tom on this. Just because the refinery is more polluting, doesn't mean you should. It's an idiotic argument because you are breathing that air too.

Back to rotting flammable Roe insulation. You guys should ask Sean about product warranties. Maybe his supplier would be able to sort it out with a product recall or something similar.

 

[F4PHANTOM]

I'm with Tom on running cats. I run Hennessey hiflows in my Venom 650R which are the stock ones cut in half. We have annual inspections in TX and my car puts out near zero emmissions and well below the test minimums. Besides, I've always thought catless Vipers sound like crap. In addition, wrapping the exhaust and especially the cats never made logical sense to me. Holding all that heat in the exhaust and making the cats hotter seemed counter intutive to me. Guess the wrapping finally burning up justifies my concerns.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Tom,

Please tell me how much more pollution gets released into the air without cats versus with cats.

While you are at it tell us just how much pollution a typical oil refinery releases when compared to every single viper ever built combined.

Lets not even get into all the old "collector" cars, or all the harleys or any other motor cycle out there.

The inception of the CARB/EPA air quality regulations was based on reducing exhaust HC and CO from engines of late '60s vintage (when the only emissions concession was the PCV valve) by 90%; then in subsequent years it was increased to 99%, and with the advent of LEV, ULEV, ZLEV levels, we are in the fractions of decimals. So the answer to #1 is confounded by the fact that those older cars used carburetors and newer engines are fuel injected, but I will still say that with and without cats is on the order of 100:1. Unlike a diesel, where unregulated exhaust is visible and odorous, unregulated gasoline engine emissions is not as humanly noticeable and I think therefore many people don't believe it because they can't see or smell it.

As for refineries, I have no idea and neither do you. But again, if you see and smell something, you assume it is "bad." Sulfur, for instance, is not necessarily "bad" but is extremely noticeable by humans - in fact, mercaptans (sulfur related) chemicals are added to natural gas for precisely this reason. It is the mercaptans that you smell - natural gas doesn't.

Refineries don't just "burn" stuff, they use modern heat, steam, and electricity to convert thick gooey crude oil into the various streams of lubricant base stocks, kerosene, gasoline, gas, and a variety of chemicals. The processes don't spill into the air and since they are under a variety of different pressures, if they did it would be instantly noticeable and cause damage to the pressure vessels. It is the energy consumption that is needed for these processes that "may" pollute - but then only on the order of a large gas-fired electric power plant. Many of the processes are catalytic and generate heat. Most operators also reclaim heat energy for lower temperature operations. It's not the environmental cess pool you think it is.

I can also vouch for the fact that refineries have been engulfed by cities - the Chevron refinery in Richmond, CA, and the ex-Texaco Los Angeles refinery, for instance. Chevron and Texaco didn't get any break from California then nor do they now. Be realistic and you should believe a refinery is a highly scrutinized, regulated, measured, and monitored industrial facility.

Old collector cars are bad. Instead of state proposals to buy them only to scrap them, I would give owners the money instead if they would put fuel injection on them. Same for Harleys... the ones I have seen up close run so stupid rich they dilute the oil so bad that they lose cams and lifters. Most seem to ride from home to the bar (for that expensive beer) and then home again and never warm up. No wonder they specify 20W50 oil - it's to counteract the thinning from all the gasoline that accumulates and never boils off. OK, sorry to the real riders, but the chrome kings are not helping.

You now see states regulating lawn mowers, gas grills, and home coal stoves. Sure, some of that may be overachieving greensters. But why keep giving them ammunition?

 

[dave6666]

The inception of the CARB/EPA air quality regulations was based on reducing exhaust HC and CO from engines of late '60s vintage (when the only emissions concession was the PCV valve) by 90%; then in subsequent years it was increased to 99%, and with the advent of LEV, ULEV, ZLEV levels, we are in the fractions of decimals. So the answer to #1 is confounded by the fact that those older cars used carburetors and newer engines are fuel injected, but I will still say that with and without cats is on the order of 100:1. Unlike a diesel, where unregulated exhaust is visible and odorous, unregulated gasoline engine emissions is not as humanly noticeable and I think therefore many people don't believe it because they can't see or smell it.

As for refineries, I have no idea and neither do you. But again, if you see and smell something, you assume it is "bad." Sulfur, for instance, is not necessarily "bad" but is extremely noticeable by humans - in fact, mercaptans (sulfur related) chemicals are added to natural gas for precisely this reason. It is the mercaptans that you smell - natural gas doesn't.

Refineries don't just "burn" stuff, they use modern heat, steam, and electricity to convert thick gooey crude oil into the various streams of lubricant base stocks, kerosene, gasoline, gas, and a variety of chemicals. The processes don't spill into the air and since they are under a variety of different pressures, if they did it would be instantly noticeable and cause damage to the pressure vessels. It is the energy consumption that is needed for these processes that "may" pollute - but then only on the order of a large gas-fired electric power plant. Many of the processes are catalytic and generate heat. Most operators also reclaim heat energy for lower temperature operations. It's not the environmental cess pool you think it is.

I can also vouch for the fact that refineries have been engulfed by cities - the Chevron refinery in Richmond, CA, and the ex-Texaco Los Angeles refinery, for instance. Chevron and Texaco didn't get any break from California then nor do they now. Be realistic and you should believe a refinery is a highly scrutinized, regulated, measured, and monitored industrial facility.

Old collector cars are bad. Instead of state proposals to buy them only to scrap them, I would give owners the money instead if they would put fuel injection on them. Same for Harleys... the ones I have seen up close run so stupid rich they dilute the oil so bad that they lose cams and lifters. Most seem to ride from home to the bar (for that expensive beer) and then home again and never warm up. No wonder they specify 20W50 oil - it's to counteract the thinning from all the gasoline that accumulates and never boils off. OK, sorry to the real riders, but the chrome kings are not helping.

You now see states regulating lawn mowers, gas grills, and home coal stoves. Sure, some of that may be overachieving greensters. But why keep giving them ammunition?

WAY to much information. I'm still concerned about the potential for higher beer prices.

 

[RAYSIR]

I'm taking my insulation off today as soon as it (the ambient temp) cools down... My side sills still get plenty hot, but I guess that they are cooler than stock (I have RT cats) because I haven't had the paint discolor yet.

DrDJ

I changed out my stock cats to RT and Corsa 3" back. I bought a 100' X6" wide roll of asbestos wrap. Wrapped my cats and mufflers under the sill. MAN, BIG mistake!!! Drove the car on the freeway about 10 miles to burn off the new parts. Pulled into my garage and the smoke never quit. I had to take a garden hose to the sills to cool them off and finally get the smoke to quit. The wrap was smoldering. Removed the wrap.
I then drilled several 1/4" holes in the sill cover by the front tire and at the rear to get some air flow around the Cats and through the sills. Problem solved!!! My conclusion was that the wraps keep too much heat in rather than making it pass rearward. Check with Parts Rack.I saw some front sill screens they use for racing. May have to remove sills now and then if you kick up gravel.
If any one needs some 6" wrap I have plenty.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Barley prices nearly doubling, beer prices up 3% and heading higher, distributor prices up $0.25/case.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/7f533724-c507-11db-b110-000b5df10621.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19587881/

http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/ind...rticle=UPI-1-20070705-17275300-bc-us-beer.xml

 

[dave6666]

Barley prices nearly doubling, beer prices up 3% and heading higher, distributor prices up $0.25/case.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/7f533724-c507-11db-b110-000b5df10621.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19587881/

http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/ind...rticle=UPI-1-20070705-17275300-bc-us-beer.xml

Well, if hot dog bun prices go through the roof too, I'm done on this planet.

 

[F4PHANTOM]

Barley prices nearly doubling, beer prices up 3% and heading higher, distributor prices up $0.25/case.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/7f533724-c507-11db-b110-000b5df10621.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19587881/

http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/ind...rticle=UPI-1-20070705-17275300-bc-us-beer.xml

Don't worry the severe Recession leading to a Depression in 3 years will take care of lowering prices. Problem is most people will be broke.

 

[blueNwhiteViper]

Here's what I run if your interested.
http://www.cnes.com/atp/
Here's the company that makes them:
http://www.atpwrap.com/viper.htm
They are not cheap but they work.
I have had them on for 3 years with stock cats then change to HF cats and there is no
burn through at all. They are made from Inconel alloy with silica insulation in the center.
-S

 

[dave6666]

Here's what I run if your interested.
http://www.cnes.com/atp/
Here's the company that makes them:
http://www.atpwrap.com/viper.htm
They are not cheap but they work.
I have had them on for 3 years with stock cats then change to HF cats and there is no
burn through at all. They are made from Inconel alloy with silica insulation in the center.
-S

Great post. Do you keep any of the stock insulation in the side sills at all with the inco kit?

 

[PDCjonny]

Nice stuff.
They must be jumping off the shelves at 5K for the complete kit..

 

[Pythonpete]

Jon, is your car ok? I have the same insulation on my car. More than a little worried now.