First Hybrid 06/08!!

[Bobpantax]

I have wanted to improve traction and shifting. When the '08 came out, I was intrigued by the new tranny, differential and tires. I had also been thinking about the Race Logic system and, more recently, the new MGW shifter. So, I sent the car back to Mark J. at Woodhouse for modifications. ( I got the car from Woodhouse in May, 2006 with significant mods done at that time.) He informed me today that he and his performance Viper tech gurus have successfully mated the '08 tranny to my Viper. ( I kept my flywheel and my clutch. I like the heavier feel.) The '08 differential was plug and play. The Race Logic is installed. The MGW shifter is installed. The new tires are mounted. Woodhouse engine mounts were installed. When I get the car back, I will post a detailed report on the difference in feel. Below is a list of all of the mods including those done in '06 and those done over the last few days. All were done by Woodhouse. If you have any questions, including price questions, please contact Mark Jorgensen at Woodhouse.

MODIFICATIONS:
1. Paxton Supercharger. RWHP/RWTQ: 653/598 on Dynotech dyno.
2. Competition Coupe swing arm oil pan.
3. Corsa cat back exhaust.
4. 2008 transmission and differential.
5. MGW shifter developed by MGW and Woodhouse.
6. Moton Shocks and Eibach springs - lowered and corner balanced.
7. 2008 Viper specific PS2 tires.
8. Race - Logic traction control with launch control feature. (Can be completely turned off.)
9. Woodhouse engine mounts.

 

[kman]

Now things are getting a little more interesting.I love to hear it, keep us posted please.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Sorry Bob- beat you to it, LOL

Our prototype cars' engine has been half 2008 since last Spring.

Already had my eye on the new trans though, heh.

 

[wallbanger]

Did they paint it ssg as well?

 

[Bobpantax]

Did they paint it ssg as well?

No. LOL. All our cars are black. But there was green involved in the process.

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Dan, Call me about Mr. D's motor

 

[MoparMan]

Very cool, Bob. I'm very interested to hear your opinion of the '08 diff and tires.

 

[Bobpantax]

Thank you MoparMan. I will probably get it back next week. Once I do, after I break in the new components, I will do a few runs and post my findings.

 

[Coloviper]

Bob;

What? No new 08' Hood? I would have thought you might take the plunge on that as well for the cooling aspect.

Did you change out to headers and hi-flo cats too? Rear gear change?

You have completed a lot of the very same mods I would like to do to my 06' Coupe. Currently all I have completed are Fidanza Flywheel, 3.55 gears, skip shift eliminator and Woodhouse shifter. I had the Woodhouse motor mounts and tranny mounts in, but took them out because they were too tight. I don't race it and I am a wuz. I just want a nice ride not the tight racer, welded to the frame ride. Just me!

In 2008, I am hoping to go with a full Bellanger exhaust system (headers, hi-flo cats and cat back, no cross over), the quaffie rear diff upgrade and add an 08' Hood paint just like HISS. I hope that will hold me over for a few years until the factory warranty runs out, then I will slap the Paxton and Motons on.

Nice car you have there.

 

[pteam]

Bob;

What? No new 08' Hood? I would have thought you might take the plunge on that as well for the cooling aspect.

Did you change out to headers and hi-flo cats too? Rear gear change?

You have completed a lot of the very same mods I would like to do to my 06' Coupe. Currently all I have completed are Fidanza Flywheel, 3.55 gears, skip shift eliminator and Woodhouse shifter. I had the Woodhouse motor mounts and tranny mounts in, but took them out because they were too tight. I don't race it and I am a wuz. I just want a nice ride not the tight racer, welded to the frame ride. Just me!

In 2008, I am hoping to go with a full Bellanger exhaust system (headers, hi-flo cats and cat back, no cross over), the quaffie rear diff upgrade and add an 08' Hood paint just like HISS. I hope that will hold me over for a few years until the factory warranty runs out, then I will slap the Paxton and Motons on.

Nice car you have there.

Can you tell me what a skip shift eliminator does to a stick shift car? And where you would buy this?

 

[Bobpantax]

"Did you change out to headers and hi-flo cats too? Rear gear change?"

No, no, and no.

653/598 at the rear wheels is enough for me. I have no interest in burn outs. I look at them as subsidizing tire manufacturers. I also do not want the car any louder. First gear and 0 to 60 are so fast now that I do not see any advantage to changing the stock rear gear. What I wanted to accomplish is to increase traction under straight line and road course conditions. I think that Mark and his techs have now done almost everything they can to accomplish this goal. Getting the increased power to the ground is the biggest problem modded Vipers have assuming they are equipped with street tires and not BFG radials. Since I drive my Viper at least a little almost every day, even in the rain, I need the all weather, street tires. As for the hood, to each his own. I do not like it. I think that the '06 hood goes better with the overall design. As far as cooling effect, I drive in Miami during the summer months and I have never had a problem. The temperature gauge stays within normal parameters even in stop and go traffic. The engine mounts reduce engine roll and, therefore, increase shift accuracy and smoothness in higher HP modded cars like mine. Per the SRT engineers the other evening, the engine mounts for the '08 Viper are harder because of it's increase in power. I did the '08 tranny, MGW shifter and engine mounts for shift accuracy and smoothness. Good luck on your mods.

Bob

 

[Bobpantax]

Our prototype cars' engine has been half 2008 since last Spring.

Interesting.

1. What does "half 2008" actually mean?

2. How did you know what components were going to be in the engine last spring?

3. Where did you get those components last spring?

4. What prototype car are you referring to?

5. What numbers has the engine produced either on an engine stand or in the "prototype car"?

Thank you in advance for the data.

Best,

Bob

 

[Viper Specialty]

Interesting.

1. What does "half 2008" actually mean?

2. How did you know what components were going to be in the engine last spring?

3. Where did you get those components last spring?

4. What prototype car are you referring to?

5. What numbers has the engine produced either on an engine stand or in the "prototype car"?

Thank you in advance for the data.

Best,

Bob

In light of the talk over the 2008's "improved in every way" oiling system last year, I put in the first order for all associated components way-back-when, hoping they would bolt up "close" enough to the 03-06 SRT block style to be modifiable into those cars. After a ton of time on the initial parts problem solving the small albeit extremely difficult changes, we got it all together and working perfectly. I have since turned this upgrade into a "kit" form (you can see it on our website). These parts are NOT a direct bolt-on by any means the way they are in 2008 configurations, they require quite a bit of machining to work properly. We offer two varations, the complete system, and the pan/pickup variation as an alternative to the Comp Coupe oiling system, and the guys who have no choice with Paxton Blowers at the moment.

1. The engine in this (my) car has the following 2008 parts: Timing cover, oil pan, oil pickup, oil pump, pressure relief valve, water pump, belt, balancer, pulley, alternator, idler and a ton of hardware. literally, everything on the bottom and front of the engine is 2008- and nothing else is stock either, haha.

2. The parts program at my Dodge dealer was in place LOOOONG before the cars came out, giving us a rough idea wat was going on, but the real deal was when the parts started arriving and we could piece together the changes.

3. Parts were directly from a dealer. I purchased many of them (cleaned them out of all their pre-stock) Some of the covers and pans I have seen come through here are even likely prototype parts that were let go by Dodge. (long since gone) All of the parts were hand numbered and serialized, and some of the parts were very obviously hand machined... kinda cool in its own way. In that regard, I also have a prototype pan on my car that apparently never saw production- it is nothing like any of the Viper pans on the Public cars. I received it and two others like it numbered (If I recall) 2, 7 and 11, all differing slightly in their build style. The one I kept appears to be a final revision of the original version which never made it to production, I suspect this was due to a manufacturer change, as the newest pans actually look very much externally like the 03-06 pans, whereas these did not, and there was a long availability issue on them, so something changed on its way to production.

4. Our prototype car, which I have used to design virtually everything we sell, from pistons, rods and shortblocks to fuel systems and interior upgrades. It gets tested on there long before any of you customers see anything!

5. As you already see, none of these parts are Horsepower producing parts. Not to mention, the engine they are bolted to couldnt be further from OEM. Lets just say, a lot... and as the packages prove themselves, you will see them added to our lineup.

The only downside to the system currently is that Paxton does not currently make 2008 Timing Cover brackets. Obviously this will come out in the near future, but the right here, right now of it would be a problem with your build.

Again, I caution you & anyone else for now and in the future; DO NOT think that you can slap these parts on like the others, or just with a dremel tool. It will cost you more in R&D/labor on the timing cover alone to make it work on your car than you could buy the whole package for. Two Machine shops, 4 timing covers, countless hours and god-only-knows how many feet of aluminum filler rod for the TIG later...I've been there.

PS- shoot me a PM re: Oil Pan.

 

[Bobpantax]

I do not intend to make any further engine mods. I was just curious. By the way, the 2008 parts were not available last spring. I do not know what you bought and received from the Dodge dealer last spring but the parts could not have been 2008 parts. I assume that the engine you describe on your web site is the engine you are talking about. Question: why would it need a reflashed computer and a VEC II? If the OEM computer is reflashed per DC's methods, it would not need a VEC II or, for that matter, a VEC III. Please explain.

 

[DII]

That's quite the extensive mod list you have there. I'm interested to hear your findings on the RaceLogic combined with the Forced Induction your running.

 

[Andrew/USPWR]

Are you tracking this car Bob?

And will you be in West Palm Beach this weekend for all the car shows?
If so wear a red rose so I'll know who you are.

I'll be at at three at some point.
Andrew

 

[Viper Specialty]

I do not intend to make any further engine mods. I was just curious. By the way, the 2008 parts were not available last spring. I do not know what you bought and received from the Dodge dealer last spring but the parts could not have been 2008 parts. I assume that the engine you describe on your web site is the engine you are talking about. Question: why would it need a reflashed computer and a VEC II? If the OEM computer is reflashed per DC's methods, it would not need a VEC II or, for that matter, a VEC III. Please explain.

Bob,

I can assure you, they ARE 2008 M.Y. parts. I would be more than happy to send you a few pictures- compare them to your 2006 engine, and then to a picture of the 2008 engine, and you can tell me which one they look like. The images are all date stamped, May 8, 2007- and I would be happy to show you the invoices, their dates, and the 2008 part numbers right on them. As I said, some parts & the parts program were available LONG before the cars. For that matter, look at the fronal engine picture on my website. Now look at the idler pulley location. Does that look like an 06 to you?

To your second question, the OEM PCM is not capable of handling boost easily (yet) due to its table breakdown and routines. This may change in the future as more features are added to the software. The VEC in this case used to add fuel under boost and pull timing, it does not do anything in vacuum at all, everything else is done at the base cal level. The other, probably most important reason it is there is to send the PWM trigger signal for the fuel pump controller.

 

[Bobpantax]

Bob,

I can assure you, they ARE 2008 M.Y. parts. I would be more than happy to send you a few pictures- compare them to your 2006 engine, and then to a picture of the 2008 engine, and you can tell me which one they look like. The images are all date stamped, May 8, 2007- and I would be happy to show you the invoices, their dates, and the 2008 part numbers right on them. As I said, some parts & the parts program were available LONG before the cars. For that matter, look at the fronal engine picture on my website. Now look at the idler pulley location. Does that look like an 06 to you?

To your second question, the OEM PCM is not capable of handling boost easily (yet) due to its table breakdown and routines. This may change in the future as more features are added to the software. The VEC in this case used to add fuel under boost and pull timing, it does not do anything in vacuum at all, everything else is done at the base cal level. The other, probably most important reason it is there is to send the PWM trigger signal for the fuel pump controller.

1. Odd. Two separate dealers told me that '08 parts were not available last spring and some are not yet available. For instance, I lucked out and got the only '08 tranny available in the parts system at this time. In any event, I think we can agree that one half of the engine is not '08.

2. Dan Cragin has been reflashing the OEM computer for quite some time for boosted applications and does an excellent job based on the feedback I have heard and read on this site. He has the ability to customize the programming based on the mods done and a current dyno graph. You might want to give Dan a call. The reflash for boosted applications requires colder plugs and a different thermostat. I know that a number of tuners have been using Dan's expertise in this area.

 

[Viper Specialty]

1. Odd. Two separate dealers told me that '08 parts were not available last spring and some are not yet available. For instance, I lucked out and got the only '08 tranny available in the parts system at this time. In any event, I think we can agree that one half of the engine is not '08.

2. Dan Cragin has been reflashing the OEM computer for quite some time for boosted applications and does an excellent job based on the feedback I have heard and read on this site. He has the ability to customize the programming based on the mods done and a current dyno graph. You might want to give Dan a call. The reflash for boosted applications requires colder plugs and a different thermostat. I know that a number of tuners have been using Dan's expertise in this area.

1. I dont know what to tell you in that regard. If it makes any difference, I have an extremely tight bond with my dealer here, and have spent more time there than most employees. They go out of their way for me quite often. And yes, I can agree with you that it isnt truly one half '08, its actually more like 1/3 '08, 1/3 '06, and 1/3 custom made. Regardless, I think we can also agree that I still beat you to 06/08 Hybrid!

2. There is a big difference from what Dan does to having a PCM truly programmed for boost. Dan's programming still relies on a Split-Sec to pull timing, and a mechanical FMU to add fuel, as that is what Paxton kits are supplied with. He is just using the internal Fuel Multipliers to smooth out the AFR curve at the PCM level- but that only works because of how the FMU and Split-Sec work together with the PCM. I write these tunes for Paxton Blowers as well, but they are a FAAAAR cry from actually being boost enabled at the PCM level, and they are limited in their power producing abilities to the size of the FMU system. The real problem lies in the OEM PCM's inability to actually read boost, it is only set up to read Vacuum. It can be fooled with a different MAP sensor, but you will lose tuning resolution in doing so. I wasnt OK with that sacrafice, and needed the PWM Output anyway. In my case, the VEC-3 replaces the FMU and Split-Sec Functions, I guess you could say. The PCM itself is doing everything else, and has completely re-written fuel maps for the engine. I can take the VEC off the car, and it will still function at 100% in vacuum, even with the 1000cc injectors and 964 bazillion engine changes.

The Big Power cars require a return-based fuel system with actual increases in fuel line, injector, and pump sizes, and cannot use an FMU based "booster pump/FMU" system, they will run out of capability quite quickly. As a result, "tuning within the PCM entirely" is once again out of the question. (and it really never was all in the PCM to begin with- the FMU and Split-Sec just hide that fact)

 

[Bobpantax]

Thanks Dan. Interesting post. Why not just use an AEM or MoTec controller instead of the reflash and the VEC? Aren't many tuners, Heffner for one, doing this for high HP applications in excess of 800 HP because of the greater programming flexibility available?

 

[ViperDude]

1. I dont know what to tell you in that regard. If it makes any difference, I have an extremely tight bond with my dealer here, and have spent more time there than most employees. They go out of their way for me quite often. And yes, I can agree with you that it isnt truly one half '08, its actually more like 1/3 '08, 1/3 '06, and 1/3 custom made. Regardless, I think we can also agree that I still beat you to 06/08 Hybrid!

2. There is a big difference from what Dan does to having a PCM truly programmed for boost. Dan's programming still relies on a Split-Sec to pull timing, and a mechanical FMU to add fuel, as that is what Paxton kits are supplied with. He is just using the internal Fuel Multipliers to smooth out the AFR curve at the PCM level- but that only works because of how the FMU and Split-Sec work together with the PCM. I write these tunes for Paxton Blowers as well, but they are a FAAAAR cry from actually being boost enabled at the PCM level, and they are limited in their power producing abilities to the size of the FMU system. The real problem lies in the OEM PCM's inability to actually read boost, it is only set up to read Vacuum. It can be fooled with a different MAP sensor, but you will lose tuning resolution in doing so. I wasnt OK with that sacrafice, and needed the PWM Output anyway. In my case, the VEC-3 replaces the FMU and Split-Sec Functions, I guess you could say. The PCM itself is doing everything else, and has completely re-written fuel maps for the engine. I can take the VEC off the car, and it will still function at 100% in vacuum, even with the 1000cc injectors and 964 bazillion engine changes.

The Big Power cars require a return-based fuel system with actual increases in fuel line, injector, and pump sizes, and cannot use an FMU based "booster pump/FMU" system, they will run out of capability quite quickly. As a result, "tuning within the PCM entirely" is once again out of the question. (and it really never was all in the PCM to begin with- the FMU and Split-Sec just hide that fact)

Yes but if you use the vacuum boost on the FMR to side-lateralize the PCM performance, do you still not lose resolution on the PWM Output?

I found this out myself the hard way, but then I found that using Slick-50 eliminates the need for any re-programming.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Thanks Dan. Interesting post. Why not just use an AEM or MoTec controller instead of the reflash and the VEC? Aren't many tuners, Heffner for one, doing this for high HP applications in excess of 800 HP because of the greater programming flexibility available?

Mainly because with the ability to control the engine in vacuum at the PCM level, a simple add-on controller like the VEC doesnt have a whole lot to do- its all in one dimension, not overlapping into closed loop like before. Most importatly, it doesnt have to scale- which KILLED its response times. It is very efficient and works very, very well. The OEM PCM has a ton of capability, it has to in order to make the cars run as well as they do stock, as well as fault finding to remain OBD-2 compliant. Other than integrated Boost Control and Traction Control, which can be controlled by Add-Ons if desired, the AEM really doesnt have a whole lot on the OEM PCM, and in fact lacks a few things when compared. The way I see it, there really isnt a lot of reason to go AEM as there was before, certainly not for the thousands of dollars more. On top of all that, "plug-in" states like NY require plugging into the OBD-2 port on the car for inspection, which the AEM will never be capable of doing. The hassle of swapping things around every year to pass inspection is a HUGE pain, and the more monumental your build, the worse the problem is.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Yes but if you use the vacuum boost on the FMR to side-lateralize the PCM performance, do you still not lose resolution on the PWM Output?

I found this out myself the hard way, but then I found that using Slick-50 eliminates the need for any re-programming.

L. O. L.!!!

PS- dont forget to hook up the Fromticator Hose to the vertical Kinipling Coupling port.

 

[ViperDude]

L. O. L.!!!

PS- dont forget to hook up the Fromticator Hose to the vertical Kinipling Coupling port.

Sorry I don't have a Fornicator Hose, not on my Viper anyways.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Sorry I don't have a Fornicator Hose, not on my Viper anyways.

hahaha, 1 point on that one.

 

[Bobpantax]

My Viper returned from Woodhouse today via Stan "the DOT man". I have to follow a break in procedure for about 400 miles because of the newly installed 2008 tranny and differential. I have already driven it about 75 miles. The new tires allow for a noticeably more pleasant ride. The shifting is much tighter and smoother due to the '08 tranny, new shifter and stiffer engine mounts. ( The additional vibration from the mounts mentioned by others was there but is only really noticeable at idle ( shakes the car like it has a hot cam) and has already started to fade a bit. My guess is that the mounts settle in after a while.) The first to second shift is very short and almost effortless. Second to third is also shorter and has a much greater feeling of certainty. Once I get past the break in period, I will test out the tranny with a bit more assertiveness and test the traction of the PS2's and experiment with the Racelogic Traction control system. I played with the digital controller a bit today. It can be set in 1 through 25 percent slippage increments and has a push button launch control. As previously mentioned, it can also be completely turned off. I did one decent but not full throttle launch. I could feel the difference in traction. Since I did not add the new components one at a time and test after each component. I cannot allocate the cause of the improvement between the tires and the new differential. I had the Racelogic set so it was not on at the time. As I have more to report, I will post. In the meantime it's great to have the subject of my addiction back home. My withdrawal systems have abated. My sympathy to those of you trapped in weather that does not permit Viper driving. I don't know how you deal without a Viper ride for an entire winter. It must be worse than water boarding. LOL.

 

[Nader]

Congrats Bob. Certainly keep us posted. The winters in NY do limit seat time however there usually are decent weekends to take a cruise. This weekend is supposed to be 50 and sunny in NY so I will be in the Viper as much as possible.