FIRST IMPRESSIONS of SRT/10

[CajunViper]

Hello to all,

Let me say right off, Thanks to all at Woodhouse Dodge. I have been driving Dodge for all my life. The sale was in the professionalism and courtesy. I was given a fair deal and a great experience. Thanks Again.

New SRT/10:

First Impressions:
I drove my new car home from Woodhouse this past Thursday and Friday. Total of 975 miles. Using the proper break-in procedure. My first impression was the fit and finish. Compared to my 96 RT/10 it was like night and day. More leg room inside and all the controls were easy to see and operate. The top is easy to use. No squeaks or rattles. Very tight. To me the car looks and feels just like a Viper only better. From the inside the visibility is better than the RT/10. And there is no mistake you are in a Viper. I crossed through four states, and everywhere I was people were rubber necking on the highway and when I stopped to fill-up, people gathered around to droll. Some knew what it was, the others asked. Everyone loved it.

Performance:
It was great, the first 500 miles were to break-in specs. But after that I was on my own. The car cruises great at 80 or 90. The sound is better than the RT/10. Drivability is easier. Now I have never driven a GTS, but I have ridden in some 500 package cars and this new SRT10 is as strong as any I have seen. Turning and handling is great. The car feels a lot stiffer than the RT/10. They said 37% stiffer, Believe them. Now I can't wait to get it on the road course.

The Prize:
I brought my new SRT/10 to TNT MotorSports today and put it on the Dyno. Beautiful day, mid to low 60's clear and dry. Bone stock it turned 447.5 RWHP and 490.1 ftlb of tourque. I am told that's pretty good. Also for all who want some mod's for your SRT/10, just wait a couple of weeks and the header's and exhaust will be ready. TNT has a few other surprise's in store for the near, real near, future. Stay tuned. With the reputation and quality work they have, this will be a welcome change. Remember it took four years for someone to break TNT's 9 second run's.

I would like to thank Joe Houss (Prez) for posting the photo's. Also thanks Nitro. Tony how could I forget those high speed run's through downtown Nashville. Thanks

Dean

 

[treynor]

Dean -- excellent report, thanks. Your driving impressions confirm what I observed in my limited spins at VOI7.

The dyno figures are very interesting. Those results are right where we expected them to be. If you've got the dyno sheet, I can scan & post it for you.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Ok, I'll be the first to speak up... is anyone else really disappointed in these numbers?

NO slam on the owner intended - but 447RWHP? What the heck is that? The GTS had 450hp (which was putting out 410-425RWHP pretty reliably) and 490lb-ft (that was putting 460-485lb-ft pretty reliably) and it's been rated that way for 7 years now.

Seven years ago, the Corvette had 330hp, IF you got the LT-4 engine. In that time, the Vette eeked it's way up to 405hp and now 2002 Z06's are running just a tenth or two slower than a GTS and only 1 or 2 MPH off. They increased the Vette HP four times in that period - but we were stuck with 450hp all along. I even asked a couple of years back why Dodge won't respond with a 500hp Viper - the answer I got? "just wait for the new Viper".

Dodge's answer? Add 20-30hp at the wheel, and 20-30lb/ft at the wheel. How long will it be before the Z06 catches, matches, and surpasses the SRT performance? So now the Z06 is down 80hp, but it's still about 200lbs lighter. Seems to me that ANY upgrade to the Z06 is going to have it running with our brand new Viper and very likely surpassing it.

Now, I know everyone's going to bring up the other improvements - yeah I know the Viper can brake really well now, it's on par with a Z06 (doh!). It also handles really well too - it was only a couple of tenths slower than the Z06 in the article I read on it (doh!). Still waiting for someone to achieve that "over 1g of lateral acceleration!" number. Was that with slicks or without?

I dunno guys... they bounced the price up by TEN grand, gave us less radical styling (which overall I personally like) but the big bonus I was looking for was dominating performance. When I read the reviews, I thought "***?" and was told "don't worry - those were pre-production cars". When I read that the SRT's were running low 12's at 120mph at VOI, I was hoping it was a bad track and we'd see a few tenths and a few more MPH. I guess my last bastion of hope was the dyno numbers. I was hoping for more like 475RWHP+ and 520+RWTQ. The car is way off those numbers. Everyone I talked to who supposedly was "in the know" said "don't worry - its rated 500hp but it's an easy 525hp, and wait until you upgrade the exhaust - watch out!". Looks to me like this car is rated almost dead on - 11-12% through the driveline puts it right around 500-505HP.

I'm severely disappointed.

 

[Frank 03SRT]

If 12% loss, is that about 510HP and 550FtLb @ crank?? Sounds pretty good to me. Great info.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

D@MN!

447 RWHP! that's a bit less than a 12% loss.

Great write up.

Craig

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

Frank, it's almost exactly 508, but whose counting

 

[George Murray]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read several impressions by owners of the "creampuff" cars with HE pistons who have said the HE piston cars make NOTICEABLY more power after 10K (or more) miles. Ron Hickey, our VA/MD pres, commented on this to me.

If this is the case, isn't it quite possible that we'll really see that 475 rwhp as these cars are driven more? Hell, 447 rwhp with a 1K mile car seems pretty $hit Hot to me...508 at the engine!

Dean...so...if you had to...would you pay $125K to an Ebay seller for the car or what???

 

[Mike Brunton]

I'm not sure anyone knows the right number for driveline loss... I heard Sean Roe did a before-and-after dyno during an engine installation and came up with 11%. I think Caldwell says 10-11% is the number too. If it's 11, that puts the car at 502HP.

However, I'll be the first to acknowledge that flywheel numbers mean nothing - it's at the tire that counts. I don't think anyone would be surprised at a 417RWHP dyno number on a stock car. So, this SRT made 30hp more? I think that *****. Going by the DC numbers, the upgrade is 50hp on the SRT. If driveline loss ***** 6hp of that away, we should still be seeing 44RWHP more. Now, if anyone on this board dynoed their GenII and saw 403RWHP, I'm pretty sure we'd be disappointed. I know I would - because we would be on the lower end of the scale.

It just seems like... not only did we not get more than the 50hp we were expecting (and I expected more than that because I heard from a TON of people "don't worry you'll be happy"), but actually we got a bit less. Seems this new Viper ain't really under-rated in the HP department. Whereas before, we saw guys dynoing at 425 at the wheels or more and everyone knew they would be over 450hp even with 11% loss.

Maybe this particular car is on the low end of the scale? Maybe. But how many more "chances" am I gonna give this car? I was let down by the magazine reviews. I was let down by the price. I was let down by the VOI numbers. I was let down by the delivery dates, and now I am let down by the dyno numbers.

Kind of a hard sell at a $10k premium, IMO.

But, it's just that... IMO.

 

[bad viper]

Mike My 96 GTS bonestock was 389 RWHP.

 

[treynor]

Well well well, how things seem to have come full circle! Now even M.B. is unhappy with the SRT, while some of its early detractors are relatively happy.

Mike - one point to consider is that you're comparing dyno #s from the pre-00 cars to the SRT. The "creampuff" years typically made 399 - 408 RWHP and 435 - 445 RWTQ bone stock, +6-8 for ACR or tubes+filter cars. Compared to those the SRT is right about on the money. However, it does appear that both the dragstrip results and the early "it's only slightly faster than the Gen-IIs" feedback was right on.

 

[treynor]

Heh. It's also interesting to see how close this was: http://vca1.viperclub.org/cgi-bin/ubb-cgi/postdisplay.cgi?forum=Forum21&topic=000770

 

[Russ M]

447 rwhp is very impressive if that is really what it will pull on a conservative dyno jet. From my experience in the past dyno jet numbers on stock vipers can vary up to 20hp. I have seen several dozen stock viper dyno pulls at R&D dyno and they all pull between 395-405 in Gen 2 form. And several of those had made pulls at other dyno facilities that gave them results closer to 420 rather than the actual 400.

That being said if the TNT facility is giving inflated numbers the SRT is right where I expected it to be, however if the TNT dyno is the real deal then the SRT is putting out more than its claimed 50 hp increase over a Gen 2 viper.

PS> I must say seeing Mike posting something negative about the SRT is very disturbing. Next thing you know he will actually acknowledge that an RT has the same performance as a GTS.

 

[George Farris]

Remember those track test results came from the car magazines that DON'T LIKE VIPERS!!!

 

[Dixter]

Cajan Viper, Congrats on the new ride....

those are some pretty nice numbers on the Dyno too... I bet it
goes over 450 after you break it in a little more...

Stock to Stock it looks like the SRT will beat any of the past
vipers...

Glad to see it recieved by the public so well too....

Now if Dodge will just bring out my Coupe.....

Come on Dodge... Coupe...Coupe... Coupe....

woops.. sorry I got a little carried away ther

 

[Newport Viper]

Does this mean RT and GTS prices will go back up!

 

[Mike Brunton]

I must admit that yes, I am disappointed - quite severaly disappointed. Especially when you consider they added 300CC's to the engine - I figured the increase would be a conservative one.

Bad Viper, that is the lowest dyno # I've seen. I remember when Mumford (I think it was Mumford) dynoed his new car and it was in the 380-range, and the dealer was checking all sorts of things to see what the problem was. My car dynoed 415RWHP and 465RWTQ with smooth tubes... granted I'm sure I picked up a few there, but the SRT is still closer to my dyno numbers than I would have liked.


Ben, I wouldn't say I'm unhappy overall - but I am disappointed in these numbers. Regarding the dyno numbers of creampuffs, I've found what you say not to be the case. Snake Bitten on this board dynoed a very strong number - I think it was in the 420's before mods. I think Chris Marshall also put up a high number - and of course there was the MT test with the stock RT at 424RWHP. I think creampuffs do seem to need more running to be broken in, but I would be very surprised if someone dynoed a 2002 GTS within a couple of HP of 400, even with only 1,000 miles on the clock. I guess a BIG part of my disappointment is that people who are supposedly "in the know" were telling me for months that the car was WAY under-rated, and it could easily have been rated 525hp. It seems they could have rated it at 550lb-ft, but they are right on the money at 500hp. That *****. Granted, it's living up to what it's advertised as, however the previous Vipers were more than they were advertised as - so some of our gain appears to come from the new cars being rated less conservatively.


Russ, man, you got that "Mike hates the RT" thing embedded deep in your head! I do think they RT performs the same. It's got a more flexy chassis, but I don't think it's enough to notice any performance difference. Now, just because you can't get down a track as quick in an RT as I can in a GTS, that doesn't mean it's the car's fault

(chill out, I am just teasing). Having said that, I have not seen the same variance on dynoes as you have... well, I have, but it was always due to car temperature more than anything else. I woulnd't think TNT would have any incentive to inflate or deflate the numbers - actually their incentive is to be right on. I tend to think these numbers are probably accurate and probably representative of what most SRT's will do. I expect they will go up a few HP with mileage, but I don't think we'll see anymore than maybe a 5-7hp increase, if that.

George, you're correct, but it's one thing to not like Vipers and another to purposefully lie about numbers because you don't "like" a car. I'm sure an improvement of at least a couple tenths can be realized, and a couple MPH more... but I've seen 11.5's and 121mph in stock Vipers... so I'd expect the best-of-the-best to be at least 2-3 tenths and 2-3mph over those numbers... and I'm not sure that's going to happen anymore.

What my REAL beef is (and it's the one thing nobody has addressed in the thread), is that Dodge isn't exactly very generous with horsepower increases on the Viper except on new models. So if this SRT is pegged at a genuine 450RWHP for the next 4 or 5 years, then I am certain that it will certainly be de-throned as king of the hill in the next 2 years - and the C6 Z06 is probably the most likely candidate to do it.

 

[MES]

It seems Mike is comparing his GTS which was either very strong or the dyno gave him a couple of extra ponies to this SRT-10. It's more important to look at the typical Gen II dyno numbers. I've listed some below (from my web site)

2001 ACR STOCK (1,500 miles) 420/463
2001 RT/10 STOCK 408/442
2001 ACR STOCK 400/445
2001 GTS STOCK 396/427
2000 ACR STOCK 407/444
2000 RT/10 STOCK 396/432
1997 GTS STOCK 401/449
1997 GTS STOCK 397/446
1996 GTS Stock 20,000 miles 422/459

add them up then divide by 9 you get an average of 405 rwhp (which is slightly high due to the 3 ACR's). If you take 50 HP times .85 (driveline loss 15%) you get 42.5 rwhp (the new SRT extra HP) add that to the average of 405 (Gen II HP) and magically you get 447.5 rwhp Spooky

Instead of using emotional "it should be this" if we do a logical calculation the new numbers are right in line as what I would expect. Given the variables of engine assembly and different dyno's I would expect most SRT's to come in from 445-455 rwhp (which is only a guess)

 

[treynor]

Mike -- your dyno experience is interesting, as it certainly differs from mine. The creampuffs I know of locally have all dyno'd in the range I quoted. For instance, my '01 RT/10 was 408 / 442 stock, and 415 / 448 with tubes & filters; Liz's '01 GTS was 419 / 445 with tubes & filters; Wayne's '01 ACR was 399 / *** stock. Under "performance mods", 2002_Viper_GTS_ACR just posted a stock '02 ACR at 410 / 450.

However, dyno niggling aside the figures -are- on the low side of what we might have expected. I'll be interested to see how it responds to K&Ns, headers, cats & exhaust...

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Who cares about performance numbers? At least it has a jack for my cell phone!!! Sweet!

Yes, I am being sarcastic.

 

[Hoosier Daddy]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck 98 RT/10:
Who cares about performance numbers? At least it has a jack for my cell phone!!! Sweet!

Yes, I am being sarcastic.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uuummmm Hello! Both of your current Vipers have a jack for your cell phone!

 

[FikseGTS]

some cars with dyno higher and some lower... but with 447rwhp, it does seem about 40HP more than most stock GENII's that I have seen on the dyno....

of course we all want more power.... but I don't think anyone is going to have any legitimate gripes to take to Dodge about the SRT not making its advertisted 500HP claim...

how much does the SRT-10 weigh? I'm hoping my lowly 453 rwhp/500rwtq and 3335 pound GTS will be able to keep up with a stock SRT...

 

[riwracer]

Hi
I have a Black 03 Viper on order that I expect within the next three to four weeks.
With all the chat about quarter mile times, I thought I would put things in some perspective.
All four of my cars have been run in Florida in 80+ degree weather.
My 2001 Vette convertible with air induction, and corsa exhausts, 6-speed, runs 13.20
My ZR-1 1993, with borla exhausts, and a few other bolt ons, runs 12.80. The dyno showed 370 hp and 350 ftlb of torque.
My 2002 Z06 stock, runs 12.80 as well
My 2000 Viper GTS runs 12.4 - 12.5 The dyno showed 414hp and 442 ftlb of torque. It has 3" Mopar exhausts and smooth tubes.

 

[George Murray]

riwracer - the average ET of your three fastest cars equates to what a Gen 1 Viper runs.

Gimme all three for my yellow 95 RT/10 and you'll be rid of the hassle of maintaining those three pesky cars, and have no net loss of ET.

Just a suggestion ;-)

 

[garolittle]

Will the SRT post higher horsepower numbers once it reaches 10,000 - 15,000 miles? It seems a little unfair to compare a "right out of the box" car with RT/10's and GTS's that have been on the road/track for years.

 

[Frank 03SRT]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Will the SRT post higher horsepower numbers once it reaches 10,000 - 15,000 miles? It seems a little unfair to compare a "right out of the box" car with RT/10's and GTS's that have been on the road/track for years.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And this one seems to not have been broken in properly (only 500 miles), although I don't know if the 03 engine needs the previous engine's recommended break-in. Those "in-the-know", like Bill P., recommended 1000 miles with very specific RPM schedules. I see my 01 owners manual says 600 miles, but all the word is to still follow 1000 miles. Yet, this 03 was only broken in for 500 miles. Unless there has been a change in manual or "in-the-know" recommendations, could be the problem, if one really exists.

Anybody know what the 03 manual says?

 

[DEVILDOG]

CajunViper indicated he drove the SRT 975 miles home then took the car to TNT. TNT is in Houston and CajunViper lives in LA state. Seems to me the car had over 1000 miles when dynoed. CajunViper, can you indicate exact mileage when dynoed? Also I assume the figures you indicated were SAE NET. In addition, was your SRT cooled down from your trip to TNT before being dynoed...no heat soak? More details please.

 

[jwwiii]

OK Viperphiles;

Who knows what the "official" regulations are regarding a manufacturer's advertised Horsepower and Torque claims?
More clearly: Dodge announced to the press that the SRT would have 500HP and 525 Torque.. right?

Now, what are the "allowable" dyno deductions for drivetrain loss? In order to not violate "truth in advertising" laws, there MUST be a "fudge factor" that allows a car to be sold while NOT meeting it's claimed performance figures! This is a perfect example.

I am not by ANY MEANS saying that Dodge did not give us what we are expecting to get. I am asking "who knows the formula that allows performance claims for promotional/sales use to be higher than what a customer will see if the car is tested on a dyno"?

I expect the answer to be what you have all been discussing: drivetrain loss. So, does this mean a cars "advertised" horsepower and torque figures always come from the FLYWHEEL?

Can any official person on this site confirm that the dyno numbers posted on the SRT are exactly what we should expect with a "rear wheel horsepower" dyno run?

That would be the ultimate answer I would think.

This is very interesting stuff. Can someone elaborate on my questions? Thanks!

Jim

 

[VOI9 ASP]

Jim... I'm sure the HP#'s posted by Dodge are at the flywheel. Were you thinking you were going to get 500 HP at the rear wheels?

 

[Frank 03SRT]

Devildog, read down a bit and see that he drove it 500 break-in miles, then he was "on his own." That probably meant that he "used" it a bit. I'll bet it doesn't hurt anything, but why all the expert advice for past motors?

Maybe the manual says 500 now and the experts agree.

 

[jwwiii]

Venom2K;

Thanks for your reply.

No, not 500hp at the wheels.

I DO believe that we should have 500 "advertised" Horsepower at the Flywheel! As far as how they "officially" measure torque, I don't know. Is "rated" torque determined at the flywheel, or, wouldn't it seem logical that the gears must have to be involved in order to get the number? That seems logical to me because changing rear-end gear ratios change the ability to twist the wheels.

So, ultimately, it would seem fair to assume that an SRT purchasing customer "should" expect to see the claimed 500hp and 525fp of torque SOMEWHERE when testing the engines advertised power ratings.

Maybe someone would take their SRT to a Dyno again and have the engine tested in the same way the "factory" tests them. THEN, we would see if the claims are at least met, if not exceeded as we all had hoped.

This is fun! Please try to answer my questions and novice theory.

Thanks,

Jim