Fuel in the oil

[topsnake]

I drove 40 miles yesterday to check, if everything works in my car. I had to switch the engine and many parts, that have been mis-modified by someone. Also the current PCM makes the air/fuel ratio much too rich. I have a heavy smell of fuel in the 40 mile old oil and have less power.

In stock mode, my 2000 PCM worked with two O2 sensors (both upstream) and nothing else (export model). Currently, a 96 PCM with more power is installed, but this one needs 4 O2 sensors. I only have two ones in the car.
My stock PCM is also broken by the guy, so I can't use it anymore. A new one costs over 1500 EUR in Germany.

I have no catalytics anymore, so I can't use 4 O2s. What should I do? How good are the simulators from Roe?
How do they work? Does the signal voltage vary or is it a static signal feed?
Would a Vec2/3 fix this problem? Is the fuel ratio adjustable here? Without caring about the O2sensor voltages?

In hope, my current engine has got no damage yet..
Dennis

I want to ride again!
YouTube - b27

 

[dave6666]

I'll let some others check in on the tuning details, but the ability of your oil to lubricate and preserve your internal engine components is greatly sacrificed if you can smell gas in the oil.

I would not drive the car any more with that oil.

Do you have a ring problem too? Have you done a compression or leak down test?

 

[dun4791]

Are you sure the PCM is calibrated for the size injectors you have?

The O2 sims work well.

 

[mike & juli]

And, we want to see MORE of your car in videos!!! Good luck with the fuel/oil problem...as Dave said, I'd not drive that car until you figure out what the problem is...my best go-to is Chuck Tator: call him up if you can from there: 1-914-763-3136...hopefully he can help you out? LOVE that mini-video, and gotta hear and see your car more! ~juli

 

[VIPER R]

Try going back to basics, check you're spark plugs, are they all the same or are some wet and fouled.

 

[Evil Snake]

Well if hes pushing fuel passed the pistion in to the crank chamber his plugs are fouled. You running super rich and do not run the engine till its fixed. You will wash the rings and loss compression if it keeps up.

 

[topsnake]

Thanks everybody! Compression is already checked, the spark plugs are brandnew, I don't think, I can see too much on them after 40 miles. I won't drive with this oil, I agree fully! But that's propably not the way to solve the origin
juli, lovely comment!
watch YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. for vids. I update them steadily for my other forum friends in Europe. I'll keep you up to date ;-)
dun, if the 96 and 2000 injectors are the same, this should not be the problem!

with the fuel in the oil, I just think, it is the very rich AFR that cannot be burned fully in the cylinders. The piston rings are not completely close. My thought was, it drips down to the crankcase...

Does anybody know the correct injector data? How much fuel may be pushed in at maximum? I have a DRB to check the values. But only reading the values makes no sense. I have no information about the right fuel injection size...

Can I call Chuck on Saturday? It's already 10pm here

Greets
Dennis

 

[mike & juli]

I think you can call Chuck, but you'd probably have to leave a message? Right now is 4:30pm...if I remember correctly, he's more available after 5pm, but not sure about weekends/Fridays? You can always try, right?!!
AND, yes...please keep me posted (pm's?) with your videos...LOVE seeing Vipers in action, as that's all we CAN do right now...*sigh*...with the ice/snow. Would LOVE to see more, more, more...never enough!! ~juli

 

[plumcrazy]

its not good if its dripping down the cylinders....

and you can foul a plug a lot faster than 40 miles too..check them !!

 

[99 R/T 10]

Too much fuel in the cylinders will wash them and loose the seal necessary for good compression. Are all the plugs wet or is just one plug fouling?

 

[topsnake]

fouling means wet, right? I understand hardly. Do you have a pic of a fouled spark plug? I will check, when I see the car next time. I guess, it will be all 10.

 

[dave6666]

Carbon fouling from rich will not neccessarily mean "wet." But oil fouling usually means "wet" if oil shiny is wet to you. It is to me.

Check out these pics at this link site.

Spark Plugs

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

A little perspective - 40 miles will barely warm up the oil. You have to get the bulk temperature well over 100C to be able to boil it off.

Stop and go driving can, over time, result in several percent fuel (5% is not abnormal) accumulating in the oil. The lighter ends may boil off, but the heavy ends won't. (Gasoline has a distillation curve, and therefore does not have a single temperature at which it boils. The end point can be 300F/150C.) Lubricants are developed to protect the engines under these conditions because it happens in the real world frequently.

The stock '96 PCM may wish to see 4 O2 sensors, but the ones that are missing are the downstream sensors. That may force a check engine light, but should not produce an operational problem. The downstream sensors are only used to monitor the catalyst efficiency and the downstream sensor signals don't have an effect on engine operation like the upstream sensors do.

Was the oil used in the 40 mile trip new?
Does the check engine light come on now?
Do you have a code reader that shows what trouble codes you have? I don't know about the availability in Europe (because I don't know if OBD-II is used there) but they are available starting at ~US$100.

 

[Madduc]

Won't the DRB read codes?

 

[topsnake]

Thank you very much for the explanation about the spark plugs. I have a good comparisson with these pictures.
Tom... When I built in my new engine, I renewed the oil filter and filled in some wallmart 10W40 oil for 10$/5liters. I let the engine run about 10 minutes, took the oil pan off, took the filter off, checked and cleaned the oil pan and made up a new oil filter and filled in new, cheap oil. same procedure again for about 1,5h. Oil pan off, checked, cleaned, new good filter, new good oil (Motul 15 W 50). This oil is in there since about 50 miles, I guess and it was BRANDnew.

The problemous thing about the PCM is... I once had read out two error signals with my OBD2 code reader. He said, P0138 and P0158. These are the rear downstream O2 sensors, and for me it was perfectly fine, because I knew, I don't have them.
Now... The PCM doesn't show this error again and it was my thought, that the PCM now erased the errors and thinks that the O2 sensors are installed... But they give 0.0V voltage to the signal line, what would mean to the PCM: LEAN LEAN, RICH IT UP.
Am I wrong with my thought? I also thought, that the car should go to some kind of emergency run, when something is bad with the emissions system. But he only will, when he got error codes, what he actually doesn't have.

The DRB is a big OBD2 reader, that can also change values and it has the possibility to go deeper with the diagnosis.
The car stands at my Chrysler guy at the moment. Not because he has never seen such a car, but because he has a DRB, and that's what I don't have.
In Germany it's horrible, how less people there are with knowledge about Vipers. I had one guy, that I really trusted in, and he had terribly damaged my car. Now I have to fix it all. And it seems to have no end.
I don't need the talkarounds and letmemakeit's, I would like to have someone good here, or to develop myself to handle such situations without too much problems.
But.. We have no Chucks over here

Greets
Dennis

 

[dave6666]

Sounds like you need a couple things.

A rope to take care of previous business, and a Wizard to take care of future business.

Let me know if you need any help with the rope. We have plenty left over here in Texas from the revolution.

I'm still working on my Wizard Jr wings...

BTW, as I am German, know any body with my last name of Diercks?

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

The problemous thing about the PCM is... I once had read out two error signals with my OBD2 code reader. He said, P0138 and P0158. These are the rear downstream O2 sensors, and for me it was perfectly fine, because I knew, I don't have them.
Now... The PCM doesn't show this error again and it was my thought, that the PCM now erased the errors and thinks that the O2 sensors are installed... But they give 0.0V voltage to the signal line, what would mean to the PCM: LEAN LEAN, RICH IT UP.
Am I wrong with my thought? I also thought, that the car should go to some kind of emergency run, when something is bad with the emissions system. But he only will, when he got error codes, what he actually doesn't have.

Dennis, the downstream O2 sensor's only function is to provide information about the catalyst performance (by comparing their rate of response to that of the O2 sensors in front of the catalyst.) The signals are not 1:1 so you have to have "simulated" downstream O2 sensors to satisfy the PCM. Only the upstream O2 sensor controls fuel mixture.

Apologies if you've looked for this, but are you sure the sensors installed upstream of the catalysts are "upstream" sensors and not "downstream" sensors? They are different parts. Are you sure the connection to the upstream sensor is the upstream sensor plug and not downstream sensor plug? With the DRB, can you see the O2 sensor signal behave properly - vary with time and vary with throttle and speed?

Many in the US have changed exhausts, the rear O2 sensor is not used or too far downstream and the check engine light comes on. However, I haven't seen anyone ever post a fuel-rich problem. I think the problem you are describing is more basic and something to do with the upstream O2 sensors not functioning properly.

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

Check your ***...

 

[topsnake]

No Diercks known here.
The problem is fixed. My oil seems fine (only driven 25 miles now). No single fume of fuel with the new PCM, operating with 2 oxigen sensors.

I installed the new PCM and it was accepted by the car with the help of DRB. My battery was broke, so I had to keep it on rpm's, otherwise I killed the engine.
After I installed a new battery, the car only runs on a few cylinders and pumps out a lot of unburned fuel to the exhaust.
Is this normal after such work?
Should I just drive a little or can I make some work before to make it better..?

Greets
Dennis

 

[topsnake]

everythings fine, PCM is learned and making lot of fun.
thanks to all