Gen 1 Head gasket problem is explained at last

[94 RT/10 Black MAMBA]

My engine is heading to Arrow Monday....YEAH!!! My local Viper Tech explained to me EXACTLY what the problem is with the early engines. As he explained it - the early assemblers didn't all understand the unique "Deck Height Requirements" of the wet sleeved aluminum block. Therefore a lot of the engines were assembled with inadequate clearance for heat expansion thus causing stress on the head gaskets... Seems like a reasonable explanation.
Question - If the deck height is an issue and Arrow must then correct this problem (by machining either the block or heads or both) when repairing my motor, will I then have a higher compression engine after the rebuild? It seems that I must or a thicker head gasket is required to compensate. Comments welcome, JonB are you out there?

 

[Doug Supercharged Vipers]

Paul -
I'm not sure if I agree with your Viper tech in whole. Although, it is important that two adjacent sleeves have the proper protrusion from the deck area of the block. BTW - Shuffling the sleeves to different bores usually suffices the proper rq'd specs. As far as change in compression ratio, the amount would be negligible ... not to worry

.

The main reason for head gasket failure on the earlier Gen I was simple -
The gaskets just "rotted out" for less of a better word. The gasket really had not much reinforcement and the water jackets split and channeled water into the combustion chambers. Chrysler changed the head gaskets on the Gen I's to mirror the Gen II head gaskets, a much better design.

If you would like, I can send you the pics of the actual failure in question.

Regards,
Doug

 

[Newport Viper]

"Chrysler changed the head gaskets on the Gen I's to mirror the Gen II head gaskets, a much better design. "
Doug ,
When was this done 95?

 

[GTS Dean]

Checking deck height in a wet sleeve engine is standard procedure in many diesel engines. Most have thin stainless shims to raise or lower the liner. Perhaps a few of the aluminum blocks are experiencing some core shift as they thermal cycle over time.

 

[JonB]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug Supercharged Vipers:
Paul -
I'm not sure if I agree with your Viper tech in whole.
Doug
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree w/ Doug.......that is to say, I disagree w/ your tech.

From 1992 - 1994, the cylinder liners WERE 'decked' by installing a seal at the base of each liner. Unfortunately, this ring-seal did NOT work well for long, and "cylinder liner creep" occured. Moving pistons forcing some liners up. (ie dicked, not decked..hee hee!) The gaskets were puny, and failed. [ Periodic torquing of headbolts MAY prevent or delay this. ]

'Continuous improvement' caused Dodge to use a better system beginning sometime in 1995....but Gen-1 gaskets were NOT improved until 2001!........as a service and warranty product. And then, they did not fit properly and were re-engineered.

An Arrow rebuild was important NOT for gaskets alone....but for the locking-ring seating of the cylinder liners, ala 95-96. {And 22 other refurbishments.}

The saga continues. Ask WHEN not IF 1992-1994 gaskets will eventually seep/leak...... MAMBA-Paul, let us know how long it takes? I predict 4-5 weeks til its back, rebuilt better than new.

 

[Don Hiltz]

Jon.

I want to make sure I understand your points:
1. Every Gen 1 engine will eventually develop leaks in the head
gasket(s).
2. An Arrow rebuild is DC's answer and indeed is the best way
to go.

I'm concerned because, while I have an extended warranty, the problem may not present itself until after the warranty expires.

Has DC ever indicated that it would provide the remedial service in the absence of overt leaks, given that it recognizes the problem(s) exist?

Thanks for all your past help.

 

[94 RT/10 Black MAMBA]

JonB you are correct... My Viper tech did tell me about the "seal at the base of each liner problem" that you describe but I forgot that prior to posting (too much to remember yadda, yadda).

By the way my Tech also said he would try to get info for me on whatever Arrow does to the engine. Interestingly he says that he has never had to send one to Arrow for the rebuild - this is his first that have had the gasket leaks. I will post when it's back and let you all know what I find out.

Another thing - This Viper Tech is very willing to talk and seems to love his work. I have dealt with other techs that couldn't or wouldn't talk in the past. My advice to all - Find yourself a tech like mine!

 

[FRANK]

My best advice to all is get a set of new head gaskets and your tools and swap out the gaskets. I realize that there is a large amount of benchbuilders out there...so I guess you'll have to rely on your Viper tech and or Arrow racing...

What is going to happen once these warranties run out? I wonder if people on this board are pushing Daimler Chrysler to offer a lifetime warrantee on their Vipers for an additional $20,000?

 

[Robert1994]

JonB, re-torquing the heads periodically should help preserve
the original gaskets ? That sounds reasonable, has anybody else
used this method successfully ? I just went over my engine
very carefully and did not see any indication at all of seepage,
but I'm assuming that this would be visible on the block below the heads.

 

[94 RT/10 Black MAMBA]

The leaks were visible on my car from below the heads. Green tracks!

Re-torqing the heads???? How many times could you redo this? As I understand it, torqing stresses the fastener (bolt) to a point just prior to it's yield. If you did this many times the fastener would no longer be any good. Is that correct?

At any rate DC is giving me a free engine rebuild (clock is ticking - Tech says it will take 6 weeks, we'll see) and despite what "Frank" thinks I'm taking it!

 

[JonB]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 94 RT/10 Black MAMBA:
...At any rate DC is giving me a free engine rebuild.... and despite what "FRANK" thinks I'm taking it! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good Choice, Mamba. When you see the "23 fixes" for free, even Robert Yates would opt for the free fix. I dont know why FRANK repeatedly debates this advice in his insulting manner. [Yates is a famous NASCAR engine buider.]

D-C has admitted no fault w/ this, and the day your warranty expires, they are free to wash their hands. Ie no free preventative care.....

PAY ATTENTION Mr Hiltz and others: first symptoms include coolant aroma. (When you smell it) Report this to your dealer so that you create prior-history. Coolant traks down the block are a dead giveaway, but the AROMA occurs first. But If the leaks are internal, there is no aroma, and no tracks! Only a gas-analysis exhaust sniff test looking for glycol will detect it. And, a complaint to the dealer of "missing coolant" needing burping regularly. It may CERTAINLY be worth the cost of this test before your warranty is lean. Some states my provide it FREE!

Torquing the heads only goes so far. 'Tight is Tight.'

 

[JonB]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JonB - PartsRack:
MAMBA-Paul, let us know how long it takes? I predict 4-5 weeks til its back, rebuilt better than new. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How long was it?

 

[Viperrick]

Mamba,
You will not stress the bolts by retorquing but, the threads for the head bolts inside your aluminum block will give up at some point. You have a limited number of times that you can stress the aluminum threads. We had one member who had his motor rebuilt a number of times (always trying some new feature on this race engine) and he finally had to junk the block because the threads gave out. I don't think they tried to helicoil it.

 

[94 RT/10 Black MAMBA]

Jon_B......Right again, it came back Monday 5 weeks to the day. Can't say how strong yet it's being installed now.

 

[REDSLED]

Stevens Creek Dodge in San Jose, CA.
I bought a 4/48 added care warranty for my 94 about 5 mos ago. Did everything over the phone in about 10 min.
Hope this helps-Jonathan

 

[Ron]

<FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Blackstone Labs in Fort Wayne, Indiana will analyze you oil for a modest fee. Call them and they'll send you out sample bottles n/c. Takes about a week for the results, which detail 20 elements (helping to identify premature wear, eroding bearing, etc.) plus flashpoint, viscosity, fuel %, <u>antifreeze %</u>, water % and insoluble %. They'll even verify that you really have Mobil One oil installed and what weight it is (in case someone subbed something cheaper?). Can be reached at 260-744-2380.

Thanks to Steve - Indy for the info....

</FONT f>

 

[JRB]

I am two months into owning a 94 with (now)29,000 miles. I can find no indication of this problem and no records on this particular car of any work being done on the head gaskets. I purchased this car and it had the original plugs, wires, hoses, belt, AND tires on it with 26,000 miles. Nobody had done anything!

Question: should I put new head gaskets on this engine or assume if it was going to happen - it would have done so by now??

Thanks for the advice.

Jim

 

[REDSLED]

I was told that it's not "IF" it's going to happen, but rather "WHEN" is it going to happen. If the car is warranteed, I'd say do it. I don't know how costly of a job it is to simply replace the head gasket out of warranty. But like they say-"an ounce of prevention....."

 

[Birvini]

I'll be taking mine down to Roanoke after VOI to have my 94 checked out.

 

[venmous]

Thanks for the info, Guys.

Stevens Creek Dodge will be getting a call tomorrow.

I am actually an oil chemist so I can run all my own
x-ray analysis (elementals) on my own!!

I just changed the oil so that might not be a good indicator
yet, but I am definitely gonna stay on this.

 

[Greg W]

I had my head gaskets replaced by Woodhouse at 8K miles because of some coolant tracks visible. 2 years later, no problems. So far... I don't think every head gasket leak is an Arrow rebuild issue.

 

[venmous]

I'm bumping this thread back up to the front because I have some questions:

1. Are their owners out there with high mile Gen 1 cars that have never had this problem.

2. I don't have a problem with having the work done, I knew this was a potential problem going in buying a Gen 1 Viper; however, as JonB emphasized, I'm not letting anybody touch this job unless they have experience. I'm in NE Ohio and not sure where to go.

3. What are the options? Is it SOP to pull the engine at the DC dealership and send it Arrow for a rebuild or will they just replace the gaskets in-house?

Fortunately, there are no aromas or visual signs of a problem, but with only 5K miles, I anticipate one eventually and of course, my car is out of warranty. Woo Hoo!!

BTW - I've exhausted all the search methods and read all the threads on warranties w/o luck; if there is ANYBODY out there who will warranty my '95 RT10, let me know, PLEASE.

 

[Tiepilot]

Redsled,
I was told on two different occassions that Head Gasket replacement would cost about $1500.00 by an independant shop not a Dealership.

 

[REDSLED]

Ouch!

$1500 to replace gaskets. Sure glad I have the extended warranty. I've noticed some coolant tracks down the block so I guess I'll have to take it to the dealer soon. The car is running as strong as ever right now. It seems to run better now w/15K miles on it than it did when I bought it w/7K miles on it. Can this be true or is it my wishful thinking?