Gen-4 Guys... possible reasonably priced tuning solution...?

[Viper Specialty]

Hey guys,

I am sitting on a potential reasonably priced "stop gap" for tuning Gen-4, and potentially Gen-5, that would sit between the full standalone option, and the Mopar controller. It is not cost effective in small quantities, but becomes more reasonable in larger quantities.

My question is, what is a reasonable price point for a tuning system that would give all of the tuning abilities that SCT has for the Gen-3 cars for your Gen-4? Please keep in mind, that is NOT just software, this is lots of hardware, electronic components, on top of software- it cannot be priced anywhere near Gen-3.

Given that Pectel, Motec and Infinity is in the 8K+ range for a basic setup and is not really end-user friendly, is the 4-5K range reasonable for something like this that allows end-user tuning, and is plug and play? [some front engine disassembly required, but nothing huge]

Let me reiterate: We have already done this in a non plug-and-play form for other reasons. This is not theory. The only reason I have been sitting on it is that I have been too busy, and also have been trying to get the price at a reasonable level when it cannot be buried in the cost of other things.

 

[TrackAire]

Hi Dan,

Price is workable, can you give more details on the front engine dis-assembly and what that entails? How much labor and what exactly is being done. Is it easily reversible if the car is to be sold in a smog state?

One of the biggest problems I see with the Pectels and Motecs of the world is the huge labor cost to correctly build a wiring harness to make everything work. One little glitch in that harness and it becomes a nightmare IMO.

Cheers,
George

 

[ROCKET62]

Would also need to have a feeling for the performance gains and your target audience. Are you targeting people that want to run super/turbo chargers, nos, or naturally aspirated? My Gen 4 has had some head/intake work, headers/exhaust and am currently using the mopar race computer. What advantages/gains might I expect?

 

[Nine Ball]

Would it still be limited to a 2-bar MAP sensor? I'm thinking $4K ready to install with a harness would likely sell pretty quickly - especially if you are coming from a manufacturer role and supply the various Viper speed shops.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Hi Dan,

Price is workable, can you give more details on the front engine dis-assembly and what that entails? How much labor and what exactly is being done. Is it easily reversible if the car is to be sold in a smog state?

One of the biggest problems I see with the Pectels and Motecs of the world is the huge labor cost to correctly build a wiring harness to make everything work. One little glitch in that harness and it becomes a nightmare IMO.

Cheers,
George

Hi George,

The engine work is basically removing the front cover, and reinstalling a slightly modified core cover- about 4 hours or so, done during an oil change. There is a slight modification to the cover, but nothing that would impact future use, or the ability to smog the car. Everything could simply be unplugged, yes- but that may be slightly more complicated if you are running different injectors that the Venom Controller cannot control, in which case you would need to swap those to smog as well. For re-sale, whether it is worth removing the installed components under the cover is your call- it will have zero impact on function if everything else is removed. If you elected to do so, we could of course work with you to exchange the cover on credit for an unmodified one to send to the next buyer of the system, and return the car to absolute stock.

When it comes to wiring harnesses, in many ways, those harnesses are far better than the OEM product. You are much less likely to have a problem with a good aftermarket harness than an OEM harness, quality of components used is not even comparable. To date I do not think we have ever had a car back for any kind of wiring issue if it was built here.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Would also need to have a feeling for the performance gains and your target audience. Are you targeting people that want to run super/turbo chargers, nos, or naturally aspirated? My Gen 4 has had some head/intake work, headers/exhaust and am currently using the mopar race computer. What advantages/gains might I expect?

Performance gains are 100% related to the modifications you have, not the tuning system directly. The Target Audience is primarily the guys looking for Supercharger and Turbocharger applications in the low-mid tier range, <1000 HP or so, or with extreme NA mods and head packages... basically the guys who are above a Mopar controller, but don't want a 1500+ horsepower full build. The power the car makes is only as correct as the tune you are running, but a tune does not directly add performance- it only allows what is already there to be revealed. In your case, I could not tell you how correct or incorrect your tune currently is, as that would dictate your gains available.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Would it still be limited to a 2-bar MAP sensor? I'm thinking $4K ready to install with a harness would likely sell pretty quickly - especially if you are coming from a manufacturer role and supply the various Viper speed shops.

Yes, it would be limited to a 2-bar MAP. We would likely sell it in a 1 Bar and 2 Bar configuration. We would surely be coming from a manufacturer role, yes.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Three responses in 24 hours? Curious... isn't this the same market who has been complaining for years about the lack of tuning options for the Gen-4?

If the response to this thread is any indication, I am not going to even spend the time on this one.

 

[Tiago]

Just my opinion, if you are going to drop $5k on this, might as well go all the way and get a full standalone.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Just my opinion, if you are going to drop $5k on this, might as well go all the way and get a full standalone.

But isn't that exactly the attitude that caused the market to sit stagnant on tuning options all these years? Virtually nobody puts a full standalone into a Gen-4, because while the argument makes sense on a FULL balls-out build, an extra 5K for tuning capability that you don't really need, does not make a good case when the extra costs account for 25-50% or more of what you are building. Its a road block. Someone makes the same argument that you just did in their head, and then never does anything because they refuse to swallow a 10K pill to get their foot in the door. 8K on a standalone will just barely get you bare-bones basic. Any serious options, sensors, or upgrades will be in the 10K plus range easily. I won't argue that the extra options arent worth the cost and the systems are fantastic when done right, but many people in this market are seriously weighing the dollars these days.

The only functional differences between what we are offering here at ~4.5K compared to a bare-bones 8-9K Pectel install is going to be upgradeability, MAP range, and built in logging/wideband- which only matter if you plan to change things or expand. Other than that, for the <1000HP crowd, not much really changes on how it can be tuned. Should someone want to go further, the whole thing can be unplugged and sold to the next guy, and a Pectel can be installed in its place. Given the limited market options, it is unlikely a used version would have much less value than a new one.

We had the first Gen-4 Pectel Install, the first and likely only M12 Viper install, and still have by far the most advanced Gen-4 engine management/data/display system out there, which can be configured in a hundred variations at different price points. Trust me, getting customers to do ANYTHING on a Gen-4 with a full stand alone is like pulling teeth, and its the primary reason the Gen-4 market is completely dead on aftermarket builds.

 

[Steve M]

Keep in mind that I don't have any intent to put a blower/turbo/nitrous on my Gen 4, so I'm likely not your intended market.

That said, to me, my ceiling is the price of the Mopar PCM + install, which is already too high. I think people really want to be able to use the power that already exists in the stock PCM, but that would take Dodge/SRT/whoever releasing the rolling encryption decoder ring. I think if you want to know what people are willing to pay, look no further than the LSx or Ford crowd and see what they pay for custom tunes. That's going to be what your average Viper guy is likely willing to pay.

For me, the huge turn-off to the Gen 4 isn't the price of some of the parts (like headers)...it is having to fork over another $1,200 for a Mopar PCM that really only provides a band-aid solution to tune for those mods.

 

[TrackAire]

But isn't that exactly the attitude that caused the market to sit stagnant on tuning options all these years? Virtually nobody puts a full standalone into a Gen-4, because while the argument makes sense on a FULL balls-out build, an extra 5K for tuning capability that you don't really need, does not make a good case when the extra costs account for 25-50% or more of what you are building. Its a road block. Someone makes the same argument that you just did in their head, and then never does anything because they refuse to swallow a 10K pill to get their foot in the door. 8K on a standalone will just barely get you bare-bones basic. Any serious options, sensors, or upgrades will be in the 10K plus range easily. I won't argue that the extra options arent worth the cost and the systems are fantastic when done right, but many people in this market are seriously weighing the dollars these days.

The only functional differences between what we are offering here at ~4.5K compared to a bare-bones 8-9K Pectel install is going to be upgradeability, MAP range, and built in logging/wideband- which only matter if you plan to change things or expand. Other than that, for the <1000HP crowd, not much really changes on how it can be tuned. Should someone want to go further, the whole thing can be unplugged and sold to the next guy, and a Pectel can be installed in its place. Given the limited market options, it is unlikely a used version would have much less value than a new one.

We had the first Gen-4 Pectel Install, the first and likely only M12 Viper install, and still have by far the most advanced Gen-4 engine management/data/display system out there, which can be configured in a hundred variations at different price points. Trust me, getting customers to do ANYTHING on a Gen-4 with a full stand alone is like pulling teeth, and its the primary reason the Gen-4 market is completely dead on aftermarket builds.

Dan,

For those of us that want to stay NA, please give us some details as to how much power can be expected? Would it allow for a different cam if desired? I'm most interested in using the car on the road course, so heat soak is one of my concerns with FI. I know that it takes a lot of money to bring something like this to the table, but what would really help is seeing a unit on a Gen 4 and real world results. I'd love to see some modified Gen 4's run a standing mile, 1/2 mile and 1/4 runs with a system you are describing. Dyno numbers obviously sell product, but something that actually works out on the track in true conditions would be great. Up to this point, the only thing I've seen really pushed is the head, intake, exhaust and mopar PCM cars on the street or on the track. I can't remember ever seeing a Gen 4 with a stand alone unit compete on video....just some dyno runs.

With your system, will every other function on the car work as stock (air bags, anti lock brakes, seat sensors, etc)?

As to your concerns with the lack of Gen 4 interest, I think a lot of owners figure that it is hard to justify putting $60k PLUS into a built motor, stand alone unit and FI on a car only worth $60k to start. The cost of a built motor and FI is pretty much a given, but the added cost of a stand alone unit, harness and installing it correctly often push people away (I'm guessing $25k for the computers, harness, install and tuning). Don't know how close I am, but I imagine it adds up real quick.

Thanks,
George

 

[Junkie]

I'm interested for sure. But at 5-6k isn't that the ballpark for AEM Infiniti which I think RSI sells?

This would give us the control to cam swap/tune? I think 660-680rw on motor is very possible with a cammed Gen4, then even more on nitrous. Which SCT is fine for.

 

[ACRucrazy]

For 4-5 K i would want to see some pictures, parts list, install instructions, dyno results, customer reviews etc.

 

[Viper Specialty]

I think if you want to know what people are willing to pay, look no further than the LSx or Ford crowd and see what they pay for custom tunes.

I am sorry...I know what you are getting at, but this comment stands out to me. You cannot possibly expect that anything in the Viper market be priced similarly to mass market products... especially for a short production run engine and PCM design? Even if Mopar released the code which is NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN, the hardware/software would STILL be considerably more expensive than anything mass market.

This kind of expectation, is exactly why virtually all new development in the Viper market has come to a screeching halt. We builders and tuners design parts and packages to make money. If there is no money to be made, we won't waste our time. Its just a fact of business.

 

[Steve M]

I am sorry...I know what you are getting at, but this comment stands out to me. You cannot possibly expect that anything in the Viper market be priced similarly to mass market products... especially for a short production run engine and PCM design? Even if Mopar released the code which is NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN, the hardware/software would STILL be considerably more expensive than anything mass market.

This kind of expectation, is exactly why virtually all new development in the Viper market has come to a screeching halt. We builders and tuners design parts and packages to make money. If there is no money to be made, we won't waste our time. Its just a fact of business.

Priced similarly? Of course not, but at the same time, I'd at least hope it is in the same ball park. To me, $4k-$5k isn't in the same ball park. That's more along the lines of an order of magnitude different.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Dan,

For those of us that want to stay NA, please give us some details as to how much power can be expected? Would it allow for a different cam if desired? I'm most interested in using the car on the road course, so heat soak is one of my concerns with FI. I know that it takes a lot of money to bring something like this to the table, but what would really help is seeing a unit on a Gen 4 and real world results. I'd love to see some modified Gen 4's run a standing mile, 1/2 mile and 1/4 runs with a system you are describing. Dyno numbers obviously sell product, but something that actually works out on the track in true conditions would be great. Up to this point, the only thing I've seen really pushed is the head, intake, exhaust and mopar PCM cars on the street or on the track. I can't remember ever seeing a Gen 4 with a stand alone unit compete on video....just some dyno runs.

With your system, will every other function on the car work as stock (air bags, anti lock brakes, seat sensors, etc)?

As to your concerns with the lack of Gen 4 interest, I think a lot of owners figure that it is hard to justify putting $60k PLUS into a built motor, stand alone unit and FI on a car only worth $60k to start. The cost of a built motor and FI is pretty much a given, but the added cost of a stand alone unit, harness and installing it correctly often push people away (I'm guessing $25k for the computers, harness, install and tuning). Don't know how close I am, but I imagine it adds up real quick.

Thanks,
George

George-

-I think that you, and everyone else, are getting totally off base here. This is a conversion kit that would allow Gen-4 cars to be tuned very much like the Gen-3 SCT cars. Similar capabilities, limitations, and results. This has NOTHING to do with direct power production, and we will have nothing to do with whatever a particular customer does or does not do with their car. This is to ALLOW you to modify your car, period. What difference do dyno numbers make on a car that isn't built like yours or anyone else's may be? That part of the equation has nothing to do with us unless a package is purchased.

-Yes, all OEM systems would work as intended.

-If talking a build balls out package, you would NOT be looking at this option anyway. That is Pectel/Motec/Infinity territory, and is not much different than any other generation- Gen-4 is just more technologically challenging, and came around during a time period where the market declined... hence not many builds around.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Priced similarly? Of course not, but at the same time, I'd at least hope it is in the same ball park. To me, $4k-$5k isn't in the same ball park. That's more along the lines of an order of magnitude different.

And you are comparing a tune file and flash device for a mass market, to an array of sensors, brackets, wiring, modules, connectors AND a tune file, flash device etc for a non mass market... what else would you expect? None of those parts are free?

You are either not factoring in just how "not comparable" these things are, or you are thinking about this from far left field on a different baseball diamond.

 

[Viper Specialty]

I'm interested for sure. But at 5-6k isn't that the ballpark for AEM Infiniti which I think RSI sells?

This would give us the control to cam swap/tune? I think 660-680rw on motor is very possible with a cammed Gen4, then even more on nitrous. Which SCT is fine for.

To my knowledge, there is not currently a Gen-4 Infinity system available, and when there is, I would expect it to be in the 6500-8500 range. I do not know what integration level it may ultimately offer as a plug-and-play.

No, the Cam Control would remain controlled by the Venom Controller. The only ECU's currently able to control that type of camshaft are the Pectel and Motec. Infinity does not yet have that code available as far as I know. This would primarily be a method of controlling fueling and spark maps.

 

[Junkie]

To my knowledge, there is not currently a Gen-4 Infinity system available, and when there is, I would expect it to be in the 6500-8500 range. I do not know what integration level it may ultimately offer as a plug-and-play.

No, the Cam Control would remain controlled by the Venom Controller. The only ECU's currently able to control that type of camshaft are the Pectel and Motec. Infinity does not yet have that code available as far as I know. This would primarily be a method of controlling fueling and spark maps.

Thanks for the info! If it won't allow me to change the cam setup on the car I wouldn't really be interested honestly. Very cool though

 

[Viper Specialty]

For 4-5 K i would want to see some pictures, parts list, install instructions, dyno results, customer reviews etc.

LOL... I would have hoped by now that people figured out that if I say we can do something/build something, it will do exactly what I said it will do?

 

[Steve M]

And you are comparing a tune file and flash device for a mass market, to an array of sensors, brackets, wiring, modules, connectors AND a tune file, flash device etc for a non mass market... what else would you expect? None of those parts are free?

You are either not factoring in just how "not comparable" these things are, or you are thinking about this from far left field on a different baseball diamond.

I understand what you are talking about here, and that's exactly what I'm trying to say (again, my opinion only): people aren't really looking for a standalone option (at least not me). It just ***** compared to being able to harness the computing power (and sensors) already on board. The people that are willing to shell out that much money likely already have.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Thanks for the info! If it won't allow me to change the cam setup on the car I wouldn't really be interested honestly. Very cool though

You are not going to get Cam Control without a full standalone. If you are talking about re-grinds, there are other options altogether. We can revert the Gen-4 to Gen-3 type configuration, solid cam, custom grind, mechanical throttles, etc. However, it comes down to dollars. Its cheaper/better at that point to just go full standalone. You are technically jumping the stop-gap with either method.

 

[ACRucrazy]

LOL... I would have hoped by now that people figured out that if I say we can do something/build something, it will do exactly what I said it will do?

I am not doubting you can/will do it, I guess all I am saying is before I would part with 5 grand I would love to hear/see some reviews.

Example, I know I want MCS coilovers based on all the great reviews and I can see what I am getting for that money ahead of time

 

[Viper Specialty]

I understand what you are talking about here, and that's exactly what I'm trying to say (again, my opinion only): people aren't really looking for a standalone option (at least not me). It just ***** compared to being able to harness the computing power (and sensors) already on board. The people that are willing to shell out that much money likely already have.

What I am offering is NOT a true standalone, it is about halfway to one. What I was hoping, is that everyone would have figured out by now that there will likely NEVER be flash tuning for the Gen-4. People have been complaining for years that there were no other options other than Mopar or Standalone. Well, this one sits dead in the middle, yet everyone is still saying too expensive... Seems like its a losing proposition for me.

 

[Junkie]

What I am offering is NOT a true standalone, it is about halfway to one. What I was hoping, is that everyone would have figured out by now that there will likely NEVER be flash tuning for the Gen-4. People have been complaining for years that there were no other options other than Mopar or Standalone. Well, this one sits dead in the middle, yet everyone is still saying too expensive... Seems like its a losing proposition for me.

Agreed, if you can hit a middle of the road tuning solution with a justifiable price point. That will be a great add on to the Gen4/5 community IMO.

 

[Bobpantax]

Hi Dan. If you have this done, why not work with Paxton and put together a kit? It looks like you might be able to do it at around the 8K price point.

 

[Junkie]

Hi Dan. If you have this done, why not work with Paxton and put together a kit? It looks like you might be able to do it at around the 8K price point.

Sounds more like 10-12k all said and done to me.

 

[cashcorn]

Bobpantax, IMO, hit the nail on the head. I think a paxton kit for 8-10k should be do able.

 

[Viper Grenade]

If you can make it have a real working cruise control and be able to tune not just fuel and spark but also the cam...i would be interested.