Viper Grenade
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Forgot to add...E85 flex fuel ability.
Gen-4 Guys... possible reasonably priced tuning solution...?
- Thread starter Viper Specialty
- Start date
Forgot to add...E85 flex fuel ability.
OP
OP
Cam Control? Cruise Control? E85?
I have a Pectel system with your name on it! You dont get top-shelf standalone features without buying a top-shelf standalone, lol.
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Viper Grenade
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Cam Control? Cruise Control? E85?
I have a Pectel system with your name on it! You dont get top-shelf standalone features without buying a top-shelf standalone, lol.
and this guy wonders why nobody is doing builds with him. 
OP
OP
Actually, I don't wonder at all. I would more than prefer that those with unrealistic expectations of quality and/or engineering/features for a given price bracket contact another builder. I have often said, I refuse to change the level at which I will build products, and that goes for damn near everything I put my hands on. If you want want a build or product where the designer quite literally obsesses over the details, you contact me. If you want something odd that no one else even thought of, let alone offers, you contact me. If you want a product where the builder has thought about potential problems for years to come in advance, and already solved them before they became YOUR problem, you contact me. If you want a cookie cutter build done by regular mechanics and testing/design by process of elimination... you have plenty of other choices.
Truth be told, I am tiring of the persistent crying about the price of everything in this market lately. You can do far more in this market, with far less money than ever before, and its still not good enough for anyone. This market BOOMED in years past with faaar worse price points than currently offered, and not nearly the capabilities or technology. I am not saying by any stretch I cater to that crowd primarily anyway, but I still see it in my own respects. I am tiring of those that think the fruits of my labors -primarily the information that I have available- is supposed to be offered freely so that they can hand it over to someone else to make money. I am being worn down by the persistent stream of people who are under the impression that I owe them something at the expense of my own well being.
I think that sums it up quite well.
That all being said, I think we can all consider this thread all but dead. There is no way I am going to invest and risk my money on the type of response this thread has recieved. If anyone wants something low-volume, we can still build it... but a high-volume risk on my part to produce it and reduce the price as far as possible is not in the cards.
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Viper Grenade
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I was referring to you gaving a ********* answer. Your "My **** don't stink" attitude is your own undoing. As far as anyone can tell your no better tuner than Larry Macedo.
Nine Ball
Enthusiast
Don't feel discouraged Dan. Those of us that know how to build/tune cars here (very few) understand what you are asking, and what to expect. The others simply need your guidance and your parts, as they likely wouldn't understand the differences between each system.
Think of it this way, would more people buy Gen 4 cars to modify, if they were only $4K more and could be tuned? Heck yes, they would. The Gen 3 coupe is holding excellent value now, being the only late model coupe that can be readily tuned. $4K is not a lot of money, relative to a $70-80K used car price. Also, if Gen 4 owners would adopt this idea, it would actually help maintain the values of their cars in the long-run. Spend $4K now and have some fun, or simply lose $4K+ in value over a short time.
Think of it this way, would more people buy Gen 4 cars to modify, if they were only $4K more and could be tuned? Heck yes, they would. The Gen 3 coupe is holding excellent value now, being the only late model coupe that can be readily tuned. $4K is not a lot of money, relative to a $70-80K used car price. Also, if Gen 4 owners would adopt this idea, it would actually help maintain the values of their cars in the long-run. Spend $4K now and have some fun, or simply lose $4K+ in value over a short time.
OP
OP
Yep... me being a poor builder and tuner is exactly why I have no customers complaining all over the internet about everything I do, and why people drop jaws when they see how we build vs others. I have worked plenty hard to make sure "My **** don't stink". There is a difference between having customers running around spraying the air freshener 24/7 to make sure all anyone smells is roses regardless of the stench... and just not having to do so in the first place. We don't hand out air fresheners here
So far as my reply to you, it actually was a legitimate reply with a bit of levity and disbelief, but... Face it. What you asked is akin to me putting a car up for 50K, and you coming alone and saying "I will only give you 50K if you throw your house into the deal too". The only reason you are so upset is that I drew attention to exactly how ridiculous your request was... which only required doing little more than putting a flashing sign around the correct solution, which you surely already knew the price point of, but didnt want to hear about. You are asking for MORE than what most standalones come standard with, on a system HALF the price, that is not even a full stand-alone. This was already gone over a few posts above your initial post, where it was already explained that Cam Control is Pectel and Motec territory at this point.
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NI-KA
Enthusiast
Dan,
I can appreciate what you are offering. I know you have been spending time attemtpting to educate here and elsewhere.
Your points regarding the differences in a $4,000 controller and a $10,000 Pectel/Motec (after install) make alot of sense.
The timing of your offer may not be the best in regards to everything happening in the Viper Club communities.... I think people who would be interested are distracted with other stuff in the viper world instead of tuning and playing with the car.
I have a GEN 2. IF I had a GEN 4/5 it would be really tempting to go with a Pectel that you tuned to unleash the CAM and full capabilities of these cars. A $4,000 option that lets you tune the car like it is a GEN 3 makes alot of sense. I haven't experienced anything on these cars that is cheap no matter what year the car is.
I can appreciate what you are offering. I know you have been spending time attemtpting to educate here and elsewhere.
Your points regarding the differences in a $4,000 controller and a $10,000 Pectel/Motec (after install) make alot of sense.
The timing of your offer may not be the best in regards to everything happening in the Viper Club communities.... I think people who would be interested are distracted with other stuff in the viper world instead of tuning and playing with the car.
I have a GEN 2. IF I had a GEN 4/5 it would be really tempting to go with a Pectel that you tuned to unleash the CAM and full capabilities of these cars. A $4,000 option that lets you tune the car like it is a GEN 3 makes alot of sense. I haven't experienced anything on these cars that is cheap no matter what year the car is.
TrackAire
Enthusiast
Hi Dan,
I already stated the price is in the ballpark, we've already paid 25% of that for a Mopar PCM that helps get rid of a few check engine lights....lol. Your middle of the road system appear to be just the ticket for a mild FI system, (under 1000 hp) if I understand it, correct? For those guys it is a bargain compared to a stand alone unit that is "over qualified" unless going bonzo on the horsepower.
With this middle of the road system, specifically what power adder options do I have if I want to stay NA? I can imagine the throttle response issue could be fixed and also raise the rpm limit if the engine is built to take it. The traditional SCT system with the Gen 3 allows you to do the head, cam, etc upgrade, right? For the Gen 4, if I'm understanding you correctly, the cam is a limiting issue and if it is changed, then we start getting back into the stand alone system, right? I'm just trying to get clarification here, your responses are technical, but honestly crap from a marketing side when describing what your are trying to sell me, how much it is going to cost and what I can expect. I understand your point that no two horsepower outputs are going to be the same because each build and modification will yield a different outcome. But your attitude almost sounds like the Nancy Polesi argument of vote for Obama Care and then you can find out what is in the bill....not fair to us non tuners that are just trying to figure out what the hell is possible, capable and feasible with this damn Gen 4 computer and motor we are stuck with.
Regarding the financial costs, I see most performance motor builds for us weekend warrior types are a 25% to 50% rule which means that most guys in the market for a motor build are comfortable spending 25% to 50% of their cars value on just the motor. If a guy has a $40,000.00 C6 Vette, a motor build of $10k to $20k is feasible in a lot of peoples mind. Of course you'll have the guys that will spend $75k or more for a Vette motor, but those are usually the all out racers or baller types that just want it because they want it. Just basic economics and personal preference for us non all out racer types.
Your asking price is not out of line in my opinion, but what your system is capable of for us NA guys is still a question to me.
Cheers,
George
OP
OP
Hi George,
Answers below.
Unfortunately, the Throttle Response issue is inherent to the Venom controller programming. In the case of what I am talking about, the throttle control would be left to the Venom Controller. The only way to circumvent this is a standalone with Drive By Wire control, or going with a mechanical throttle body arrangement, which COULD be done, but you would then be crossing right back into Standalone territory. The configuration of the Gen-4 more than the Venom Controller itself is what pigeon holes you into certain options.
Rev Limit could be raised.
Yes, Cam and FBW related items. Again, there are other solutions such as solid cams and Mechanical Throttles, but we are then heading right back towards Standalone territory. That being said, the FBW and Cam should not be major detractors from mid-tier builds, with the obvious exception of the throttle lag, which everyone already has... nothing new there.
Trust me, I am very aware that my responses are very vague. I am doing it on purpose, as much as I do not want to be doing so. This market is littered with Copy-Cats, and I know that as soon as I even post "how" it will be done or can be done, I will have someone else trying to bring out something based on my ideas before I can even get it to market. It *****, but there are absolutely vendors in this market who steal other people ideas and work in the background, and then pass it off as their own. Multiple actually... and I have fed them enough in the past. The problem is that I don't have the resources working in the background to slam something into production on a whim. I need to schedule it and keep the current customers happy- its a balancing act. Until I expand a bit, its a continuing problem... which unfortunately the state of the market and economy, and especially this POS state of NY, aren't exactly helping. I just need to make sure that if I decide to postpone this, or go in another direction, that I didn't just hand over the keys to the kingdom to someone else.
Tangent: All that being said, what is easier to market... a 4-5K tuning option that opens up enough doors to actually do something, or a 8-10K "package" deal that both adds tuning ability [still mid tier], but also rids the FBW issue by going mechanical, and adds ~50+ horsepower w/a custom solid cam grind and pre-packaged tune? [requiring Int/Ex obviously if not already installed] This could possibly be made smog-able as well.
The G4 just presents a REALLY tough marketing area. No matter what you do, its expensive to try and solve everything- so nobody bothers.
Answers below.
Unfortunately, the Throttle Response issue is inherent to the Venom controller programming. In the case of what I am talking about, the throttle control would be left to the Venom Controller. The only way to circumvent this is a standalone with Drive By Wire control, or going with a mechanical throttle body arrangement, which COULD be done, but you would then be crossing right back into Standalone territory. The configuration of the Gen-4 more than the Venom Controller itself is what pigeon holes you into certain options.
Rev Limit could be raised.
Yes, Cam and FBW related items. Again, there are other solutions such as solid cams and Mechanical Throttles, but we are then heading right back towards Standalone territory. That being said, the FBW and Cam should not be major detractors from mid-tier builds, with the obvious exception of the throttle lag, which everyone already has... nothing new there.
Trust me, I am very aware that my responses are very vague. I am doing it on purpose, as much as I do not want to be doing so. This market is littered with Copy-Cats, and I know that as soon as I even post "how" it will be done or can be done, I will have someone else trying to bring out something based on my ideas before I can even get it to market. It *****, but there are absolutely vendors in this market who steal other people ideas and work in the background, and then pass it off as their own. Multiple actually... and I have fed them enough in the past. The problem is that I don't have the resources working in the background to slam something into production on a whim. I need to schedule it and keep the current customers happy- its a balancing act. Until I expand a bit, its a continuing problem... which unfortunately the state of the market and economy, and especially this POS state of NY, aren't exactly helping. I just need to make sure that if I decide to postpone this, or go in another direction, that I didn't just hand over the keys to the kingdom to someone else.
Tangent: All that being said, what is easier to market... a 4-5K tuning option that opens up enough doors to actually do something, or a 8-10K "package" deal that both adds tuning ability [still mid tier], but also rids the FBW issue by going mechanical, and adds ~50+ horsepower w/a custom solid cam grind and pre-packaged tune? [requiring Int/Ex obviously if not already installed] This could possibly be made smog-able as well.
The G4 just presents a REALLY tough marketing area. No matter what you do, its expensive to try and solve everything- so nobody bothers.
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TowDawg
Enthusiast
^^^^^THIS is the PERFECT way to look at it^^^^^
To be honest, I'd never thought of it that way, but it makes perfect sense. It's the psychological difference of timing that probably gets most people. Dropping $4k out of nowhere for the ability to tune an engine can sound steep. However, if it was being thought about when purchasing the car and your spending $70k, what the hell is another $4k to $74k? It's all a mind game.
cashcorn
Enthusiast
So, Are you going to build a Paxton package for the Gen 4? Would love to see some real #'s and a possible price.....
this is perfect for the gen4 guys who want a paxton to make good power. 850-900rwhp is a strong car and more than most can/want to handle. I would think this would go over well once a car has it installed and tuned to see what can be done.
good on you dan for trying to help the gen4 guys boost finally
good on you dan for trying to help the gen4 guys boost finally
DPViper
Viper Owner
If Dan's tuning system at $4-5,000 would allow me to add a Paxton to my 08 I'd buy one today. You're talking $15,000 package....I know it would sell.
OP
OP
It has crossed my mind, yes. I think people would be more apt to buy a package with it buried in the cost than just a flat cost itself to tune.
purplesnake
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Dan,
I have been on the forum long enough to have read about your talents. I think without question that if you packaged a Paxton option complete, and also a N/A option complete there would be interest. I know I would.
Thanks for your efforts!
I have been on the forum long enough to have read about your talents. I think without question that if you packaged a Paxton option complete, and also a N/A option complete there would be interest. I know I would.
Thanks for your efforts!
OP
OP
Question guys:
I am entertaining another possibility... using different hardware to gain even more control, and possibly using the Paxton route to offset the design costs since it will likely increase sales drastically.
Three questions:
1. Since we were at the ~4.5K ballpark before for Fuel/Ignition control, would the ~5.5K ballpark be reasonable for also gaining control of the camshaft, elimination of drive by wire (Throttle Lag) issues, and also having true standalone expansion capability?
2. If I could package a Paxton kit in a "bolt on" configuration for the Gen-4, including the above system, for the 14-15K ballpark, in the 700-750RW range, would I have buyers? [This setup would be Piston Limited]
3. If I could expand the previous kit by offering a "bolt-on" package including all of the above, but with a set of drop-in pistons, full gasket set, and a different calibration in the 17.5K ballpark, for 850RWHP, would I have buyers?
Keep in mind, this setup would be using an extremely expandable ECU, and has many capabilities that could be unlocked if needed or pushed further.
I am entertaining another possibility... using different hardware to gain even more control, and possibly using the Paxton route to offset the design costs since it will likely increase sales drastically.
Three questions:
1. Since we were at the ~4.5K ballpark before for Fuel/Ignition control, would the ~5.5K ballpark be reasonable for also gaining control of the camshaft, elimination of drive by wire (Throttle Lag) issues, and also having true standalone expansion capability?
2. If I could package a Paxton kit in a "bolt on" configuration for the Gen-4, including the above system, for the 14-15K ballpark, in the 700-750RW range, would I have buyers? [This setup would be Piston Limited]
3. If I could expand the previous kit by offering a "bolt-on" package including all of the above, but with a set of drop-in pistons, full gasket set, and a different calibration in the 17.5K ballpark, for 850RWHP, would I have buyers?
Keep in mind, this setup would be using an extremely expandable ECU, and has many capabilities that could be unlocked if needed or pushed further.
purplesnake
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Speaking for myself...yes, yes, and yes. But I would also be interested in a N/A package that someone of your talents has figured out all the problems.
redtanrt10
Enthusiast
Hey Dan hope all is well! to hard for me to read through all the posts and subsequent comments. To your question, and from my perspective, I'd be in for NA power adders at $100 per RW HP, but I have to be able to pass CA smog. I'm at the wall at 602 with headers/exhaust, ported intake and heads. Maybe pay a little higher for improved drivability functionality. Keep us posted and thanks!! Mike
OP
OP
Hi Mike-
Take a look at post #47 above. That kind of sums up where this thread currently is sitting.
Regarding Smog, states which have sniff testing should not have a problem in any case so long as the converters are still installed. States which have OBD2 testing will need to plug the Venom controller back in, stay out of boost, and allow the system to pass. Fuel system changes will need to be reversed as well, such as an injector swap. We would do our best to make this process as plug-and-play as possible, perhaps maybe an hour or so of screwing around to make it emissions compliant for the day.
There are other options regarding OBD-2 compliance, but it would be outside the scope of this kind of price bracket. Those can be made compliant in a matter of minutes... but the convenience of the process is not cheap.
Steve M
Enthusiast
If the difference is $1k to gain control of all of that stuff, then in my mind that would be $1k well spent.
OP
OP
Its actually a LOT more in small quantities. But my thought process is that if I can bury the R&D and production costs into a larger-sales-volume Paxton Kit & Standalone Option, I can likely get the costs under control by making it a high-volume product, thereby offering it separately after the fact.
I should also mention that there is a very good chance this can be adapted to Gen-5 without too much hassle.
What I am thinking about has NEVER been done in the Viper market in the configuration I am considering.
Nine Ball
Enthusiast
Without the Paxton (or Procharger) kit, Gen 4 owners have no real incentive to buy this ECM. So, it is a good idea to offer it as an entire package.
OP
OP
I would agree. However, there will absolutely be a power gain with just about any configuration, as well as the fix for the Throttle issue. That in and of itself may be enough for some people. That being said, this package is absolutely the ticket for Paxton Blowers and small bolt-on TT kits to finally pump into the Gen-4 market in quantity. I KNOW I can make the package attractive, its more a matter of finding a company to produce exactly what I want in a production form to get the costs reasonable and installation simple.
OP
OP
Yes, in effect. The hold up however is that the Gen-4/5 camshaft is not as easily "replaced" by something aftermarket. The Gen-3 has cam cores on the shelf. The Gen-4/5 does not. Its not as easy to re-grind such a camshaft either. Short of going to a solid cam [which would be an easy option with this setup... but will make smog more difficult] we would be stuck with the PROFILE of the G4 or 5 camshafts. Luckily, they are not tiny camshafts, and should be able to get the job done at an acceptable level, especially with the ability to articulate them. This is ONLY a Big Build NA issue though, the cam is fine for FI.
All that said, there are already 650 RWHP Gen-4's out there with port work, and still running an incomplete tuning solution. Pulling another 25+HP out of those should not be a problem.
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TrackAire
Enthusiast
Dan,
Need you to clarify this question. If running a head, intake and exhaust upgrde with the stock VVT cam, are you saying you might be able to get another 25 hp out of it AND get rid of the crappy tip in throttle response?
Did I mention I hate the Gen 4 throttle response?...lol
George
DPViper
Viper Owner
I would be very interested. I had a Gen 3 with a Paxton and I miss the power. You've got to do this! Thanks
OP
OP
Hi Guys, please check out this thread:
http://forums.viperclub.org/threads...options...-time-for-a-head-count.-POLL-INSIDE
http://forums.viperclub.org/threads...options...-time-for-a-head-count.-POLL-INSIDE
TrackAire
Enthusiast
Ha...you beat me to the punch. Well I voted and it's 100% unanimous that all the matters is Gen 4 tuning, lol.
Should be interesting to see what the masses come up with.
Cheers,
George
Should be interesting to see what the masses come up with.
Cheers,
George
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