Gen 4 tuning... Coming soon

[treesnake]

KINGSNAKE97 started a thread in the Gen 2 section regarding this new ECU system. I have been looking into this system for a while now. I plan to use it in my Gen 2 drag car.


I wanted to mention it here because the Gen 4 system is due out soon.

http://www.proefi.com/Dodge_Viper.html



Best part of this new system is the cost. It is about 1/3 - 1/4 the cost of Motec/Pectel.....
It's plug n' play so the install is nowhere near as exten$ive either.....

 

[1.8t]

That is very exciting, but I wonder how long it will take to come to market? A lot of times these are empty promises, but I hope this comes through!

 

[ViperGeorge]

Looking forward to the Gen 4 kit.

 

[AbsolutHank]

Whoa...very interesting

 

[FrgMstr]

Does not say "coming soon." It says, "Gen 4 Variable Cam plug and play kits to be announced." Two very different things, so I would not hold my breath.

 

[1.8t]

I emailed them to see if they had an idea for a release date and this is what they returned:

"We have run the engines, but currently do not have a plug and play solution for it. The timeframe is hard to say, as we have to track down connectors for it."

 

[Tom86ZT]

Can you hardwire it in at least? Plug and play means they have a harness built. If they have a tune to at least start from thats half the battle. Can wire it in without too muh trouble (still a PITA I know).

As I mentioned on other thread, I loved the pro-efi in my infiniti. I didn't even have the big-boy 128 (ran a pro-efi 48 basically as a test bed for the nissan VQ street cars).

Tom

 

[mnc2886]

I emailed them to see if they had an idea for a release date and this is what they returned:

"We have run the engines, but currently do not have a plug and play solution for it. The timeframe is hard to say, as we have to track down connectors for it."

Hopefully it won't take too long. This may be promising for future Gen V owners. Maybe this will lead into that being able to be tuned as well.

I wonder if someone will take the Gen IV with this tuner and try a cam swap.....though I don't know who makes a 'cam-in-cam' aftermarket camshaft.

 

[treesnake]

Might be able to get the Gen 4 system on the market sooner if everybody that is interested would send an email...

I know I would be more inclined to build something if I knew there were people wanting it...

 

[redtanrt10]

Hey Mike, thanks for the heads up! Dan Lesser from Viper Speciality said they make good cost effective systems, (power plus functionality) let's hope they produce a good system and a solution for Gen IV's. I'll send them an email and hopefully stop by their shop in two weeks when I get out to PHX. Mike

 

[Viper Specialty]

Their website has said that for a LONG time.

In all honesty guys, while there may be a "plug and play" option at some point, you have to be careful with how you "say it". Plug and play for a race car? Sure. Plug and play for a street car? Much more difficult. The Gen-4 is even worse than the Gen-3 with regard to bus system integration, and none of these aftermarket controllers will handle Bus system communications. The "plug and play" kit would require a whole extra wiring harness among other things in order to work in a street car, which would add a LOT of cost and complexity to the kits, similar to the Gen-3 PNP kits out there already, but even more complex.

That being said, the PRO-EFI is a real alternative to Motec/Pectel for certain applications. I do urge you however to speak to someone knowledgeable in both systems before making a decision. All three of the tuning systems mentioned have their pros and cons, and while anyone can sell you dreams, only tuners with system experience can tell you which one is a good fit for your application. Then there comes the competency to be able to successfully sort out an installation, especially on a Gen-4. Gen-4 is a WHOLE new ball game on the tuning side of things as well.

 

[Tom86ZT]

Good point. In most cases (I'd assume Gen IV's as well) this is still a "piggy back" system. That is due to EVERYTHING being run of factory ECU (i.e. HVAC, Window motors, door locks, dash, radio, lights, etc). So the factory ecu runs all that jazz while the aftermarket handles the important stuff

that being said, in applications I have driven cars with pro-efi, they drive like NO OTHER aftermarket computer controlled car.

I could keep mine at crazy load in high gears (i.e. 6th gear at 250-30mph) with no bucking or surging. A large part of that is the tune too!!

Tom

In all honesty guys, while there may be a "plug and play" option at some point, you have to be careful with how you "say it". Plug and play for a race car? Sure. Plug and play for a street car? Not so much. The Gen-4 is even worse than the Gen-3 with regard to bus system integration, and none of these aftermarket controllers will handle Bus system communications. The "plug and play" kit would require a whole extra wiring harness among other things in order to work in a street car, which would add a LOT of cost and complexity to the kits.

That being said, the PRO-EFI is a real alternative to Motec/Pectel for certain application. I do urge you however, to speak to someone knowledgeable in both systems before making a decision. T all three of the tuning systems mentioned have their pros and cons, and while anyone can sell you dreams, only tuners with system experience can tell you which one is a good fit for your application, and be able to successfully sort out an installation, especially on a Gen-4.

 

[treesnake]

I am trying to get a grasp of all the VVT parameters and problems. While reading the "advanced tuning" section at AEM, I ran across a section dedicated to tuning VVT engines....???

Below is a link to the AEM users guide. I'm guessing there is a simple explanation why this won't work on the Gen 4s.

The VVT tuning section starts on page 165....

http://www.scribd.com/doc/23931231/AEMPro-User-Guide-V2-0

Thanks

 

[Viper Specialty]

I am trying to get a grasp of all the VVT parameters and problems. While reading the "advanced tuning" section at AEM, I ran across a section dedicated to tuning VVT engines....???

Below is a link to the AEM users guide. I'm guessing there is a simple explanation why this won't work on the Gen 4s.

The VVT tuning section starts on page 165....

http://www.scribd.com/doc/23931231/AEMPro-User-Guide-V2-0

Thanks

Gen-4 VVT is Continuously Variable, and requires a 3D mapping and calculation system, very similar to how fuel or timing is mapped. The control system is also similar to how a fuel injector works, only it biases Oil pressure with that valve instead of fuel.

With that said, the AEM only has 10 injector drivers. In order to use any type of Cam control, you lose injectors 9 and 10. Obviously... this is a slight conflict of interest, haha.

 

[treesnake]

Gen-4 VVT is Continuously Variable, and requires a 3D mapping and calculation system, very similar to how fuel or timing is mapped.

Thanks Dan. I figured there was an obvious reason...

 

[Steve M]

Since it appears that only the exhaust lobe is affected, would it even be worth it in this application?

 

[Viper Specialty]

Since it appears that only the exhaust lobe is affected, would it even be worth it in this application?

ABSOLUTELY.

There is good reason that Gen-4's produce more power anywhere in the curve under the same conditions than any other generation. The ability to control the exhaust lobe and thus influence the LSA at any given point is a huge advantage.

 

[Steve M]

I guess I was wondering how much they advance/retard the exhaust lobes already, but you make a good point...it would be interesting to see if someone could squeeze a lot more power out by doing nothing more than playing with the cam phaser.

 

[fqberful]

Good point. In most cases (I'd assume Gen IV's as well) this is still a "piggy back" system. That is due to EVERYTHING being run of factory ECU (i.e. HVAC, Window motors, door locks, dash, radio, lights, etc). So the factory ecu runs all that jazz while the aftermarket handles the important stuff

that being said, in applications I have driven cars with pro-efi, they drive like NO OTHER aftermarket computer controlled car.

I could keep mine at crazy load in high gears (i.e. 6th gear at 250-30mph) with no bucking or surging. A large part of that is the tune too!!

Tom

Doesn't the BCM run the windows / doors / lighting ? The dash instruments are on the data bus yes, but that's about it besides the radio.

 

[Viper Specialty]

I guess I was wondering how much they advance/retard the exhaust lobes already, but you make a good point...it would be interesting to see if someone could squeeze a lot more power out by doing nothing more than playing with the cam phaser.

You are looking at it from the wrong angle.

The Gen-4 already has a relatively aggressive lobe profile. Now, in camshaft terms, an aggressive lobe + the appropriate Lobe Centers [LSA] will give you the best peak power. However, what happens to the rest of your torque curve as a result? It is no longer optimal.

Now, if you look at it in those terms, what you can see is that sure, you may pick up a little on top, but the BIG advantage is what you can do by maximizing the torque curve everywhere else except for the peak. For example, you could set a narrow LSA at idle so it sounds like a gigantic cam, off idle widen it up to regain your torque, and slowly close it up as you approach peak. In essence, dialing in the cam from start to end of the rev range. TT and SC cars will benefit just as much by being able to prevent exhaust gas reversion, and losses out the exhaust- while not actually losing anything in the sound and drivability department.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Doesn't the BCM run the windows / doors / lighting ? The dash instruments are on the data bus yes, but that's about it besides the radio.

-ALL of the Dash inputs come from the PCM
-Inputs to ABS module for VS
-Inputs to Radio for VS
-Inputs to BCM for VS/Start/Run
-HVAC interior demand for Compressor control
-A/C Pressure Switch reading is a CAN bus item

 

[1.8t]

The best solution would be for some one to crack the OEM ECU. It can most certainly be done, but I can only assume those with the means and the funds feel like the return won't be worth it.

 

[Steve M]

The best solution would be for some one to crack the OEM ECU. It can most certainly be done, but I can only assume those with the means and the funds feel like the return won't be worth it.

It's a pretty limited market just looking at the number of owners, and factoring in the number of owners willing to modify an already pretty fast car.

 

[gb66gth]

Wow, I've never read a thread that makes me feel as ignorrant as this one has.

So let me get this straight, you put the fuel nozzel do-dad in the whole thingamajig at the back of the car, right?!

 

[ViperGeorge]

Wow, I've never read a thread that makes me feel as ignorrant as this one has.

So let me get this straight, you put the fuel nozzel do-dad in the whole thingamajig at the back of the car, right?!

Now that is funny. And exactly how I feel.

I met the guy that built the program for the Gen 4 computer, forget his name but he was on One Lap of American when Chris was running one of the first ACRs. He was the co-driver. He didn't work for Chrysler as I recall but some other supplier. Wonder if their contract prohibits them from divulging the code.