Gen 5 vs Gen 4 engine

[aries]

I was wondering what the difference is between the Gen 5 and Gen 4 engine? Is the block and heads and stuff the same just with the internals being different? Is the architecture the same or are they two totally different designs?

 

[Y2K5SRT]

For starters you are looking at forged pistons, larger and sodium filled exhaust valves, a redesigned composite intake manifold, and a more advanced engine air management system.

 

[ACRucrazy]

here ya go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SZxsSz6cCo

 

[09 Venom]

that brace needs to be in carbon fiber!

 

[aries]

Thanks ACR, that pretty much answered my questions. My idea was, when I get the Gen V, to build a nasty NA engine for it. I would have liked to save the stock engine and build a second engine for it. So my idea was to take a gen IV engine and build it and put it in the Gen V, but it looks like that will not work.

 

[ACRucrazy]

that brace needs to be in carbon fiber!

Performance Cross Car X-Brace
With single-piece carbon fiber construction, this hand-made brace has more than 30 layers of carbon fiber optimally aligned to manage driving loads. Brace features topology optimized structurally efficient design, aerospace-grade stainless steel attachment bushings, and significant weight savings over production aluminum engine brace. Polished, exposed carbon fiber weave complements hood inner finish. Front, carbon-fiber cross-car brace.
MSRP: $3,175, part number 82213416

You must be registered for see images

 

[Viper Specialty]

I was wondering what the difference is between the Gen 5 and Gen 4 engine? Is the block and heads and stuff the same just with the internals being different? Is the architecture the same or are they two totally different designs?

As best I have been able to find out:
-Nearly identical block, heads, and peripherals
-Forged pistons- but dont be fooled, these will not be equivalent to aftermarket parts.
-Sodium Filled Exhaust Valves- NOT Larger.
-Revised camshaft intake lobe duration.
-Revised Intake Manifold.
-Revised Valve Cover/Coil Cover arrangement.

In short, from what I can see, there is nothing as part of the Gen-5 that could not be adapted over to Gen-4 architechture. Take a Gen-4 block, put in aftermarket pistons, a Gen-5 Cam and exhaust valves, and a Gen-5 intake manifold or ported manifold... and you have basically the same engine.

 

[redtanrt10]

Dan, thanks! What do you guess would be the hp/trq upside to the Gen V cam and exhaust valves (on a G4 with headers, ported intake and heads)? any other advantages? thanks! Mike

 

[ferraritoviper]

that brace needs to be in carbon fiber!

I like heat resistant red, to go with the valve covers. Carbon fibre is so cheaply imitated these days, hard to tell real from fake...

 

[09 Venom]

this would be nice also..

I like heat resistant red, to go with the valve covers. Carbon fibre is so cheaply imitated these days, hard to tell real from fake...

 

[JAY]

Thanx Dan , Great explanation , and to the point !!!

As best I have been able to find out:
-Nearly identical block, heads, and peripherals
-Forged pistons- but dont be fooled, these will not be equivalent to aftermarket parts.
-Sodium Filled Exhaust Valves- NOT Larger.
-Revised camshaft intake lobe duration.
-Revised Intake Manifold.
-Revised Valve Cover/Coil Cover arrangement.

In short, from what I can see, there is nothing as part of the Gen-5 that could not be adapted over to Gen-4 architechture. Take a Gen-4 block, put in aftermarket pistons, a Gen-5 Cam and exhaust valves, and a Gen-5 intake manifold or ported manifold... and you have basically the same engine.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Dan, thanks! What do you guess would be the hp/trq upside to the Gen V cam and exhaust valves (on a G4 with headers, ported intake and heads)? any other advantages? thanks! Mike

Its hard to tell until after a Gen-5 cam can be checked out. The Gen-4 cam is not small, I would not be surprised to find out there is a misrepresentation of the info: IE barely no change, same cam with a different installation, actually a programming change for phaser and not an actual cam change, etc. Our ACRX/USGT engines make WELL over 640 on the G4 cam, and without headwork- its not small as I said. My feeling is that the cam change is minor, and the gains are primarily via manifold. Until we have an idea how good the manifold is, and if the cam is actually changed and by how much [cough... Gen-5 might not be the only option soon either ...cough] we are shooting in the dark. Its not impossible the ideal configuration may actually turn out to be a ported Gen-4 manifold. Who knows.

The Gen-4 exhaust valves will have near zero affect on HP. They are simply trying to keep the valves cooler on extended high RPM running at high loads found on track duty. It helps ward off detonation.

 

[redtanrt10]

Hey Dan, appreciate the comments. Have a great Holiday with your family! Mike

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

The cam is different and may as well work in the Gen4 with the Mopar PCM, the caveat is that the PCM may not work with further performance parts so you would be back to using a aftermarket tuning solution. I have been assured that the Gen5 intake is far superior to ANY ported version of the Gen4 and that with some modification to the sealing of it to the Gen4 heads it is compatible. Trouble is that neither of these parts will probably be available for a long time if ever as an off the shelf purchase.

Its hard to tell until after a Gen-5 cam can be checked out. The Gen-4 cam is not small, I would not be surprised to find out there is a misrepresentation of the info: IE barely no change, same cam with a different installation, actually a programming change for phaser and not an actual cam change, etc. Our ACRX/USGT engines make WELL over 640 on the G4 cam, and without headwork- its not small as I said. My feeling is that the cam change is minor, and the gains are primarily via manifold. Until we have an idea how good the manifold is, and if the cam is actually changed and by how much [cough... Gen-5 might not be the only option soon either ...cough] we are shooting in the dark. Its not impossible the ideal configuration may actually turn out to be a ported Gen-4 manifold. Who knows.

The Gen-4 exhaust valves will have near zero affect on HP. They are simply trying to keep the valves cooler on extended high RPM running at high loads found on track duty. It helps ward off detonation.

 

[Steve M]

Regarding the Gen V cam, pulled from this thread here:

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/656328-Gen-5-camshaft-in-gen-4-motor

The Gen V camshaft has the same exhaust profile and timings as the Gen IV cam however the intake profile has been change to improve top end breathing with a very slight loss of low and mid-range. The lifted area under the curve is greater and the intake centerline is ******** four degrees. This change alone would result in an 8 to 10 horsepower improvement compared to the gen IV profile. The cam change would be a direct swap; the intake centerline should be checked and set to 122 ATDC. Although some calibration changes were required for Gen V, our guess is that the Mopar controller would provide acceptable fuel and spark and since many of the OBD monitors are desensitized there should not be any issues with check engine lights. All bets are off with a production controller.

 

[JAY]

Will be interesting to see if some tuner takes advantage of the New Intake Manifold ?

 

[SilveRT8]

I'm pulling my Belanger Headers and HF cats from my Gen IV before trading the car for the new Gen V.
Will also keep the Mopar PCM, MGW engine and trans mount, along with the MGW short shifter mechanism.
Any idea if they will fit the new Viper ?
If not I'll just put those up for sale

 

[Viper Specialty]

Good info on the cam Steve.

There will be options on the cam, thats a given. Whether its worth it or not is tough to tell. I will be working on Gen-4/5 cam options as well.

The manifold is an interesting topic. I am sure it would be simple to come up with some way to safely attach it, and it should work otherwise. Might be a worthwhile upgrade. I am curious to see what the inside of it looks like myself!

 

[ROCKET62]

There would be zero difference in HP & TQ if SRT would open up the Gen 4 PCM for a more aggressive tune - especially if headers and intake mods were accounted for in the Gen 4 .

Gen 4 would probably even rate higher ....

 

[Viper Specialty]

There would be zero difference in HP & TQ if SRT would open up the Gen 4 PCM for a more aggressive tune - especially if headers and intake mods were accounted for in the Gen 4 .

Gen 4 would probably even rate higher ....

Not sure what you mean?

But on that topic, I would LOVE to get someone with a Gen-4 to install a Pectel and actually see what these cars can make on a REAL tune while staying N/A.

 

[ringram]

Yeah intake manifold and fueling seem to be the biggest power change areas. Forgings and valve materials etc are neither here nor there except for durability.
This is a bit sad in a way.

 

[Moundir]

Not sure what you mean?

But on that topic, I would LOVE to get someone with a Gen-4 to install a Pectel and actually see what these cars can make on a REAL tune while staying N/A.

If your providing the pectel, I'm there I thought you owned a gen 4?

 

[Viper Specialty]

If your providing the pectel, I'm there I thought you owned a gen 4?

Ha, you wish, lol.

I do, but mine is set up for forced induction- it would not be a proper platform to test any NA theory. Ideally, one of my race engine customers will step up to the plate on this one, as their engines are already built and optimized for this particular package type.

 

[Moundir]

I thought I'd try lol. When is your car going to be finished?

 

[Viper Specialty]

I thought I'd try lol. When is your car going to be finished?

Back working on it now- there are a few development holdups as we are designing a few more products to accompany these packages, but enough of those parts should be done to be back on track in the next 6-8 weeks. I have about 6 weeks of slow time right now, as we are waiting on parts orders for the half dozen engines here that showed up around the same time a couple weeks back, so I am hoping to get on track to finish this damn thing by spring. I just don't have time for my own stuff like I used to, but there are too many customer demands tied to this particular package and its associated parts to keep ignoring it. The Gen-4 DWB Billet Throttles, the new FPTS fuel pressure reg design, MyGig conversion, new ICD Digital/Analog dash, new TT system design, etc are all tied to the completion of this car.

The most hilarious thing is that at the moment, the car is being held up by about 76 cents in electrical terminals that have been impossible to locate... but hopefully will be in hand the first week of January.

 

[MtnBiker]

I'm pulling my Belanger Headers and HF cats from my Gen IV before trading the car for the new Gen V.
Will also keep the Mopar PCM, MGW engine and trans mount, along with the MGW short shifter mechanism.
Any idea if they will fit the new Viper ?
If not I'll just put those up for sale

Let me know if you decide to sell those parts.

 

[SilveRT8]

Let me know if you decide to sell those parts.

Fine, Right now, forum member ACRucrazy has contacted me for those, but I'll let you know the outcome

 

[I Bin Therbefor]

Don't under estimate the importance of the cooling changes to the tuning.

 

[Jack B]

They had a slight problem with certain cylinders running hotter than the average. You can change the a/f and timing based upon the temps of the upper cylinder chamber. The factory has always dumped loads of fuel (over rich) at wot to cool the charge, that costs hp.

 

[Viper Specialty]

They had a slight problem with certain cylinders running hotter than the average. You can change the a/f and timing based upon the temps of the upper cylinder chamber. The factory has always dumped loads of fuel (over rich) at wot to cool the charge, that costs hp.

Of all the race engines through here, there is very little evidence that this will actually cause any problems in the long run, it is quite miniscule in percieved effect. If I was to guess, I would say that they probably adjusted the size of the block to head coolant holes. The Gen-3 engines had the same size holes front to back, while the Gen-4 has smaller holes in the front than the back to push flow rearwards. I would bet that they changed the hole sizing to to adjust biasing cylinder to cylinder.

All that said, the Gen-4's had headgasket problems in some cases, that SRT has apparently credited towards the cooling system "hot spots"- but I don't agree. It was a bad gasket design, I saw possible issues the first time I saw them. Cylinders running a few degrees warmer than their sisters dont cause head gasket failures unless there is a head gasket weakness, or a major cooling system failure upstream.